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And the fact that you can put as many carriers into production as your IC allows, with no restrictions whatsoever. Even if Japan won in China, that simply wouldn't be feasible. Japan starts with good practicals, too, which makes carrier mass production even easier.

Right. Historically, Japan only had 4 shipyards capable of building carriers, and those same shipyards were also tied up building the Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano. A fourth, unnamed ship of the same class was laid down in 1940 and scrapped after Pearl Harbour. All four of those ships were taking up valuable drydock space that could have been used to build carriers. Japan's post-1942 carriers were either converted support ships like the Zuiho or carriers that lacked features Japan's existing CVs had in order to get them out into the fight faster.

The thing about Japan, was that its military budget was insane. In 1937 alone, 28% of Japan's budget went to the military, which was a much larger % than the other countries. For reference using recent figures, Germany's military spending is about 4.5% of its total national budget, the US military budget is about 24% of total spending, North Korea's is about 50%, and China's is about 10-14% depending on the source. Japan's Industrial Capacity (I'm talking about IC with all laws and modifiers, not just base IC) was maxed out starting in 1937 and stayed that way the entire time. In contrast, the US only used about 40% of its max IC, and Germany didn't max out its potential until the end of the war. Japan's actual wartime production was only slightly higher than Italy's, and the main reasons for Japan's success were the ingenuity of its soldiers and the fact that the Allies let Japan run rampant while they focused on taking out Germany first. IMO, Japan's in-game IC should be about 10 points higher than Italy, and right now I feel it's too high.
 
interesting what history would be without a Taranto raid to inspire the Pearl Harbor raid which would lead to what type
of war in 1941-43 in the Pacific?
 
My reference is "The Eagle and the Rising Sun" by Alan Schom. The Japanese had the best soldier in the world. Not drafted, not hoping for peace. Described as medieval, their doctrine was religion based and they were awesome...These guys were that disciplined and that dedicated. You cant make them surrender, panic or give ground. Gotta kill them all first and that simply put...sucks.

It's not clear if pure fanaticism is necessarily a good thing. I read many accounts of japanese going out of their trenches/forts charging at the battle cry of Banzai, only to be slaughtered in mass without any result. A dead soldier is not a very useful one, sometimes it's better to aim for self preservation to be there to fight another day.
 
Right. Historically, Japan only had 4 shipyards capable of building carriers, and those same shipyards were also tied up building the Yamato, Musashi, and Shinano. A fourth, unnamed ship of the same class was laid down in 1940 and scrapped after Pearl Harbour. All four of those ships were taking up valuable drydock space that could have been used to build carriers...

Let's hope they will introduce some kind of limit/bottlenecks to navy building capacity with HOI4. Combined with the building length of major ships, that would severely limit the possibility to build massively giving extreme importance to long term fleet building plans. That making this thread even more valuable !
 
Let's hope they will introduce some kind of limit/bottlenecks to navy building capacity with HOI4. Combined with the building length of major ships, that would severely limit the possibility to build massively giving extreme importance to long term fleet building plans. That making this thread even more valuable !

Naval factories are confirmed, sounds pretty interesting
 
Japan's actual wartime production was only slightly higher than Italy's, and the main reasons for Japan's success were the ingenuity of its soldiers and the fact that the Allies let Japan run rampant while they focused on taking out Germany first.
This is only partially true. In 1941, maybe. However, in 1944, for example, Japanese production figures were much higher.
 
An off topic question but

speaking of used IC, anyone know how much of it's industrial capacity Italy put towards war production before 1943?
 
You know where you can find alot of this info? for those of you who have the inclination...way back in the day when i used to design WW2 PBEMs the web was just a baby and the resources we have available simply werent available, i found that going to the local library and copying data from the World Almanac from various years (36,37,38 etc...) was extremely useful. You would be surprised at how much raw data was listed in them.
 
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Naval factories are confirmed, sounds pretty interesting
Not many had them I think.

Sweden: Götaverken and Lindholmens in Göteborg, Kockums in Malmö
Finland: Crichton-Vulcan in Turku, Sandvikens Skeppsdocka in Helsinki
Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia: Apparently none
Denmark: Orlogsvaerftet in Copenhagen. Burmeister & Wain, Helsingør Skibsværft and Odense Staalskibsværft could make up for another
Norway: Karljohansvern in Horten (but only DD's, CAs came from Newcastle)
Greece: British and Italian built
Turkey: British built
Romania: Italian built
Yugoslavia: Cattaro shipyard in Split, but was too slow to finish a single DD by 43, so all were bought
 
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Portugal also had a few shipyards.
Lisnave in Almada (south of Lisbon)
The ENVC in Viana do Castelo (North of Porto)
Both capable of building at least, DD and possibly CL
 
Wow, my point/post has nothing to do with the game and I definitely can not add anything to the discussion except to say I have been reading this thread for a while and it's been fascinating as hell. If they taught history to me at school like this I'd have had a much better grade!! Not to mention been far more interested in it!! :D

Thanks to all have that have contributed shared their knowledge. :)
 
Very nice thread!

In comment on the original topic (the naval details), the "monitors" used by the UK Royal Navy seem to be omitted. These were intended mainly for shore bombardment, but in general spec they were very roughly like "coastal battleships" (small, armoured ships with very big guns for their tonnage, built with shallow draft and wide hulls that gave good stability as a firing platform and ability to operate close inshore, but dodgy seakeeping and poor speed).

In 1936 the RN had three of them: HMS Erebus, HMS Terror and HMS Marshal Soult. Erebus was commissioned in 1916 and served right through the war; Terror was Erebus' sister ship, commissioned in 1916 and sunk after being hit from the air in 1941. Marshal Soult was a Marshal Ney class monitor commissioned in 1915 and used in 1936 as a training ship. Her armament was removed in 1940 to be used in a new monitor - the HMS Abercrombie.

During WW2 two monitors were commissioned: HMS Roberts and HMS Abercrombie. Roberts was commissioned in 1941, Abercrombie in 1943 and both survived the war.

The monitors were used in the North African campaign (shore bombardment, especially in support of and in the attack on Tobruk), during the Salerno landings and for the Normandy landings. They were also occasionally used to bolster harbour AA defences (in particular in Malta, 1940/41).

P.S. Someone asked about PT-Boats/MTBs/Schnellboots:

The information I have (from Osprey) lists pennant/serial numbers that add up to the following such boats used during the war, either in service at the start of the war in Europe or built/commissioned during the war: UK Royal Navy 393 MTBs (Motor Torpedo Boats) and 898 MGBs (Motor Gun Boats); Kriegsmarine 581 Schnellboots (not counting 6 early models given to Spain in 1936) and ~50 smaller LS- and KM-boots.

These vessels seem to have been very successful early in the war at what they were designed for - convoy raiding (including minelaying in hostile waters), countering their opposite numbers and doing inshore patrol work with some anti-submarine actions. What cut their effectiveness later on was airborne radar; for convoy raiding they lat in wait at night or in bad weather to loose off torpedoes and ramp to full speed in a surprise attack. Patrolling aircraft with effective radar left them nowhere to hide.

In HoI terms my own inclination would be to treat these vessels a bit like province AA, but against shipping. Base them in a port and all adjacent sea areas get attrition on enemy vessels passing through (including other such units operating in the same sea area). Of course, this is not possible with the HoI to HoI3 engines...
 
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Alright, the Soviet experiment is complete. I achieved success (easier than I though, actually).

In HOI3 terms, Stalin's plan is doable. In order to achieve success, you need to stay at war constantly once the Axis attacks. The extra IC from total mobilization is important, but since naval vessels take forever to build, Heavy Industry Emphasis is so very important in shaving time off construction. By implication, the Purge is necessary, otherwise you won't have the unity to enact Heavy Industry Emphasis.

Phase one was no sweat. Of course, we easily hit the Great Army mark before war with Germany. I did 2 1/2 IC runs. The first two were in 36 and 37. Then, when I engaged Heavy Industry Emphasis during the Winter War with Finland (1938), I fired up another partial run just to take advantage of the laws. Aside from that, I only cooked a few ships in most categories for practicals, while focusing on land and air power prior to the war.

When Germany attacked, I was not able to engage phase 2 as quickly as I would have liked, due to much larger upgrade costs than I anticipated. The upgrade from LARM and CAV to ARM took longer than I anticipated as well (lower than usual armor practicals because I was not rushing to get really nice armor). However, Germany obliged me by playing a lousy game. Despite setting up defensive lines on rivers, the AI felt it necessary to send HARM against me, trying to use brute force to cross the rivers. German air forces badly damaged most of my CAS, but my INTs contested the skies effectively. The Germans even let me keep Marat off the Baltic coast, providing shore bombardment while the German navy and air force did nothing. The only naval action at this stage in the war was when the plucky little Romanians sent their one NAV repeatedly against my Black Sea Fleet.

Before December of 41, we had liberated Poland and taken Danzig. Romania was puppeted when the German army advancing on Stalingrad refused to turn around and help out their allies. This resulted in a huge pocket that took half a year to clear.

By 42, I had added a ton of aircraft to the queue, but also CAs were entering full production. All CAs produced by the Soviets this game used WWI techs. They exist solely to fulfill Stalin's plan and to generate cruiser practicals.

By 43, most of the Axis was puppeted, aside from Japan. I hit Great Air Force and Grand Navy this year.

By 47, the war is dragging on as I take out unaligned minors just to keep Heavy Industry Emphasis.

And the results:

HoI3_103.jpg



HoI3_100.jpg


And just to make sure you know I built proper air and land forces.

HoI3_101.jpg


HoI3_102.jpg



Now, the Soviet Navy looks awesome on paper. It rivals the historically powerful war-time production of the USN. But underneath those numbers lay dark secrets.

1) All those subs are pre-1943 techs. Their hulls and engines make them unsuitable to force projection in a Cold War setting. They will have to be scapped and new ones built.

2) All CVLs are WWI era hulls and engines. They are only suitable for training or target practice. I built them while I researched the full CV tech to generate some carrier practicals. They served their purpose, but they are garbage.

3) All CVs are pre-1940 hulls and engines. Their CAGs are awesome, thanks to Soviet light aircraft practicals and techs, but they are all too slow to engage in fleet operations with modern ships. They will have to be scrapped (a new set of 9 CVs is in production as of the screenshot, so it's not all bad).

4) All CAs are WWI tech. They were only built to satisfy the plan and to generate practicals for the CLs. Sell them for scrap.

5) All BCs are WWI tech. They are only good for scrap. I built them to generate capital ship practical early in the war.

6) About 1/3 of the DDs are pre-1941 techs. They have upgraded ASW and RADAR, but they are too slow to keep up with newer ships.

7) About 10 of the CLs are in the same condition as the DDs. They are unsuitable for Cold War operations.

8) About half the BBs are level 3 or worse, making them unsuitable for Cold War operations. And remember, 3 of the BBs on that list date from before the Revolution! (They never got sunk, even when shelling Germany for years on end.)

Now, the good news.

The BBs completed in January of 47 look like this.

HoI3_99.jpg


Soviet CAGs, despite never firing a shot, are awesome thanks to supplementary research from light aircraft. That means that whenever those newer CVs are finished they will be able to terrorize the oceans. The USA had better be careful during the Cold War.


Some thoughts:

As anyone who has played the Soviets knows, the real limiting factor for land and air forces is logistics. The USSR can spam INF/ARTY and INT/CAS all day, but in the end, unless you also spam infrastructure and supply techs, you can only keep so many units supplied sufficiently to be a credible threat against either Germany or Japan. In particular, invading Manchuria and Korea renders Soviet manpower and IC superiority somewhat moot; build all the brigades and wings you want, but you aren't moving all of them through Asia.

This means that any Soviet naval plan has some built in IC slack from the beginning it can take advantage of. Even on VH, with its associated IC and resource penalties, a semi-skilled Soviet player can produce more land and air units than can be utilized effectively. So, in that sense, what else are you going to spend your IC on, but a navy? Even at its worst, a Soviet player can dedicate 100 IC a day to keep upgrades humming along and still have plenty left over to build new things. Furthermore, spamming brigades costs leadership, which is more of a finite resource than IC for the Soviets (assumes the Purge was enacted).

What makes the navy difficult is that Soviet naval techs are so bad, and practicals are so bad, that you waste a disproportional amount of leadership trying to even get marginal techs, to say nothing of cutting edge technologies. In order to get decent techs, you have to trade IC for research: build useless ships just to get practicals to speed up research and build newer ships. Again, luckily for the Soviets, IC is not a real issue and it is a viable strategy to trade IC for research.

I considered taking the SHBB route. I've done it before with the Soviets, but I didn't do it this time. Yes, the Soviet BBs planned were to be bigger than Yamato, but if you examine the screenshot, the BBs I finished in 47 have a much higher hull rating than Yamato, more firepower, are faster, have mo operational range, and more AA. Basically, the Soviet BBs I built make treaty battleships look like wimps, which was the point of Yamato anyway.

Given Soviet limitations in leadership, in a real game, I would streamline the Soviet navy along BB lines and dispense with subs and carriers. The reason is that my doctrines are crap in this game. You'll notice that the BB has 1946 guns and engines, but 1943 doctrines. It's even worse for subs and CVs. If you could see my air doctrine page, you would be aghast. In other words, the limitations of Soviet leadership make naval specialization a must, not IC limitations.

A final thought:

Stalin's naval build plan only works because he can impoverish the Soviet people using a war time economy. The people of the Soviet Union faced real hardships during the war, and the increased IC efficiency and output, and reduced consumer goods demands, simulates their sacrifice (as it does for all other war time powers). Without the ability to force the population to accept these sacrifices, his build plan seems unreasonable unless you totally abandon the army and air force. Without practicals, naval build times are atrocious, and it is much easier to build those practicals by using Heavy Industry Emphasis to substantially cut build times. Furthermore, the plan only works because the Germans and Japanese can't bomb ships as they are being built. In the real world, Stalin's plan was sensibly abandoned when the war broke out, but I don't see how it would have been successful without a war time economy.

O-M-G

Its just amazing, awesome work!
 
FYI to all who may be interested: I cleaned up the links in the first post, since the forum migration messed them up. Added links to Secret Master's build plans for USA and USSR.
 
FYI to all who may be interested: I cleaned up the links in the first post, since the forum migration messed them up. Added links to Secret Master's build plans for USA and USSR.

Nice one, and excellent thread as well :). I dropped by when FOARP highlighted the list in his OP in the thread in the HOI4 forums, and noticed they were broken, but was happy enough scrolling through. In that thread, there was a discussion about Canada and Australia not being on the list, particularly in the context of Germany's torpedo boats making the cut (for example, the 12 Mowe-class torpedo boats in the 1936 list for Germany) - note the original discussion of ommission was in the context of the thread on minor country military production, not this thread.

I'm afraid I'm not really a 'naval' person, so apologise for using wiki links and not having anything better (and smack me down if I'm off the mark), but according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_23_torpedo_boat, the displacement of the Mowe was 923 tons, or 1290 tons with a full load. Compared with the 940 tons displacement of the flower class corvette (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower-class_corvette) and 1850 tonnes (2520 tons full) of the Tribal class destroyer (produced in both Canada and Australia, although apparently the Canadian Tribal class destroyers weren't finished until after the end of WW2), it seems there may be some value in getting Australia and Canada's production in the list at some stage. I'd be surprised if I couldn't find the Australian stuff at the very least.
 
Thank you