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That another branch of the military controls the aircraft on a carrier than the navy does not make carrying out missions impossible, the U.S. Marines often had air groups on U.S. Navy carriers and they are most certainly not the same branch of the military if you ask either of them.

The Marines can whine all they want but they still directly report to the Navy, and were formed and have always been part of the Navy. There is a reason it's called the Marine Corps.
 
I think you forgot 1 H39 class Battleship since your including ships not finished. According to what I read about 5000 tons of steel was invested in Battleship H (with 12000more ton already ordered) when construction was halted after the breakout off hostilities.

Thanks for the correction, I fixed the list. Turns out construction on two of them started, but was halted about a month after the war started.
 
I once heard that the Mosquito was an Australian invention. can anyone confirm or deny that?
 
That said, there aren't many nations in the world that could build warships, so all that's left for me to cover are: the US, the UK, France, Japan, Yugoslavia, Poland, China, and Sweden. In the case of the last 4, their naval buildups were much more modest, focusing on destroyers and the occasional light cruiser. I'll combine their naval plans into a single post, and have 1 post each for the remaining 4 majors.

One missing, Finnish Navy did build some of it's ships...
Granted, it wasn't very large, but the capability to build something was there (Namely the two 2 coastal defence ships somewhere in heavy cruiser range and submarines), designs were Dutch(or german, considering who the dutch company was really working for) but they were built on finnish dock in the 30'ies...
...Alas, not much to write on naval plans side as as far as I know, no futher expansion was planned after the 1927 law was passed for acquisition of those 2 'armored ships', 4 submarines and 4 motor torpedo boats had been finished.

Edit; and 'some' airplanes were built in finland as well, most combat planes were of licenced designs, since the locally designed prototypes were not all that succesful (lot of them were built and assigned for intelligence gathering and other non combat duties, but I suppose these are not represented in HoI3 anyways), still, they would/could probably be considered as capacity to build 'interwar fighter' level planes during the war, not awfully useful, but still there...
 
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One missing, Finnish Navy did build some of it's ships...

Thanks for that, I completely forgot about Finland's rearmament after it acheived independence.

As for aircraft, I hadn't planned on making any posts about them in this thread, because I'm pretty ignorant when it comes to the various nation's air forces, aside from the fact that not many countries had a domestic aviation industry. I encourage anyone who's knowledgable on the subject to make a new info-post for aircraft, as this thread's been pretty popular so far, with over 1,000 hits in three days.

I can't attest to the accuracy of this site but it is one of the best I've found regarding both the ships that were actually built for the Kriegsmarine and for the ships that were planned. Also has lots of pictures and pictures of models.

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/

I took a look at that site, and it seems to be accurate. Unlike Wikipedia that site actually lists real sources, as opposed to Wikipedia's Plan Z "source" "Overy, p. 50", which isn't a source, it's just a name and a page number. That "reference" doesn't even tell you the name of the actual book, author's full name, or ISBN, which makes it worthless from a research perspective.

Anyway, I'll take a look at it and update the first post later. Thanks for the link!
 
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Republic of Finland

After gaining independence in 1917, Finland received roughly 30 vessels belonging to the former Russian Empire, which were of poor construction. After an accident in 1925 which saw the loss of an entire torpedo boat and crew in a storm, Finland began a naval armament program centered around the Turku shipyard Crichton-Vulcan with the goal of replacing the old Russian ships with new ones of domestic construction. The goal of the naval expansion was to intercept Soviet shipping in the Baltic and protect against amphibious landings.

*2 Ilmarinen-class Coastal Defense Ships (slow, heavily armed and armored cruisers)
*3 Vetehinen-class Submarines
*2 Vesikko-class Submarines (I included the Saukko in this class)
*4 torpedo boats

Of note is that all of the ships were designed by a Dutch company called Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw. This was in fact a dummy company owned by the Kriegsmarine for the purpose of designing and experimenting with submarines and other vessels in order to circumvent the Treaty of Versailles. The Design 1047 Battlecruisers in the Dutch entry were created by this firm, which also designed the Scharnhorst. Finland's submarines were actually prototypes for the German subs. The Vesikko was the prototype for the German Type II sub, for example.

All of these ships that can be represented in-game were finished by 1936. PI chose to merge all of the subs together into one unit, and the torpedo boats aren't vanilla units. The two coastal defense ships are modeled as level 0 heavy cruisers.

Republic of China

Until the 1st Sino-Japanese war, China had the largest navy in Asia. The war was disastrous for China, which saw all of its battleships and the majority of its fleet destroyed by Japanese cruisers. In the early 30's, China began rearm its navy and overhaul the ships that survived the 1st Sino-Japanese War and the Warlord Era of the Chinese Civil War. The first step was ordering the Ning Hai cruiser from Japan, which was finished on September 1, 1932. The Ning Hai's sister ship, the Ping Hai, was built in Shanghai under Japanese supervision, and was launched on Sept. 28, 1935 and commissioned on June 18, 1936. Aside from those two vessels, the newest Chinese ships were the two American-built Chao Ho-class cruisers, commissioned in 1911. The rest of the navy was built in the late 1890's and was hopelessly outclassed by the IJN.

Due to the tensions between China and Japan, the RoC began a naval rearmament plan that was vastly different from other nations. Aside from the two Ning Hai cruisers, the focus of the rearmament was to modernize the existing fleet, especially the ships' AA guns. The reason for focusing on the existing ships was that Japan was unwilling to build or sell more to China, and the Europeans refused to build or sell ships to the RoC for two reasons. The first was that France, the UK, the US, and the Netherlands didn't want to antagonize Japan and prompt an attack on their colonies. The second reason was that all of the European naval powers, majors and minors, were busy rearming themselves due to tensions in Europe and couldn't spare ships for China.

The Chinese fleet when the 2nd Sino-Japanese war broke out, excluding small craft like torpedo boats, was:

*2 Ning Hai-class cruisers
*2 Chao Ho-class cruisers (3 were ordered, but the revolution in 1912 forced the Fei Hung to be canceled; it was sold to Greece instead and renamed the Elli)
*3 Hai Yung-class cruisers
*1 Hai Tien-class protected cruiser (the Hai Chi was the only surviving ship of the class)
*1 Tung Chi-class cruiser
*3 Chang Feng-class Destroyers

All ships were either sunk in port by Japanese bombers or sunk in the Yangtze river to act as a blockade. Both Ning Hai-class cruisers were raised and served in the IJN. Note that FTM vanilla's fleet is inaccurate. It has 1 too many destroyers units, is missing the Ping Hai in the starting build queue, and is missing the Hai Yung, Hai Chou, Hai Chi, and Tung Chi cruisers. The OOB was fixed by myself and Paradox decided to include the fix in TFH.

The reason I included China in this thread despite having a fleet that was almost entirely purchased or built abroad is because it built the Ping Hai domestically, which IMO qualifies it as a nation with a naval industry, although a very small one. Since the late 1800's China was building its own small gunboats domestically, which are too small to include in-game.

For sources, I used this site and this one.
 
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Unlike Wikipedia that site actually lists real sources, as opposed to Wikipedia's Plan Z "source" "Overy, p. 50", which isn't a source, it's just a name and a page number. That "reference" doesn't even tell you the name of the actual book, author's full name, or ISBN, which makes it worthless from a research perspective.
Although I would be one of the last to defend Wikipedia as a source, if you look 1 section farther down you will see the bibliography which tells you that "Overy" is: Overy, Richard & Wheatcroft, Andrew The Road To War, Macmillan Press: London, United Kingdom, 1989
 
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In-game terms, that means only the following nations should be able to build ships other than transports: US, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Yugoslavia, Finland, Japan, China, and the USSR. No other nation in the game should be able to build their own warships, not even the Commonwealth (they bought/received ships from the UK).

Royal Yugoslavia wasn't really capable of building their own navy. Ships were either purchased abroad outright or were built based on foreign licenses.

Kinda off-topic, but in regards to aircraft, only the following nations should be able to build planes at all: US, France, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Poland (transports only), USSR, Japan. Neither the correct naval or aircraft starting techs are implemented in vanilla or any mod. I'm currently working on the HPP's starting techs, but there are a *lot* of small nations like Cuba that can build interceptors that I need to fix.

OTOH, Royal Yugoslavia was quite capable of building airplanes prior to WW2 (look up Rogozarski IK-3 for example of domestic production; Me-109s and Do-17 were built after acquiring a license, had license not been acquired IK-3 would have gotten far more significant production quota).

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While on the subject of fixing HPP, Yugoslavia (and Slovenia) should have core in Trieste province at the very least. It was an ethnically mixed territory (with roughly 50-50 distribution) up until the end of WW1 (as the province Carniola of Austro-Hungarian Empire). Following WW1 it was forcibly italicized until the end of WW2 when roughly half of Italy's WW1 conquests of the former Carniola and Istria provinces reverted back to Yugoslavia (nowadays Slovenia and Croatia), with remainder left to Italy thanks to the western allies.

Core in Trieste is far more warranted than random cores of various nations in central and southern Balkans.

Here's the pre-WW1 regional map for further reference:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Austria_Hungary_ethnic.svg
 
Although I would be one of the last to defend Wikipedia as a source, if you look 1 section farther down you will see the bibliography which tells you that "Overy" is: Overy, Richard & Wheatcroft, Andrew The Road To War, Macmillan Press: London, United Kingdom, 1989

Huh, didn't see that earlier. Of course even that isn't done correctly, as the link doesn't cover the entire title :rolleyes:

Royal Yugoslavia wasn't really capable of building their own navy. Ships were either purchased abroad outright or were built based on foreign licenses.

I'll get to Yugoslavia later :)


While on the subject of fixing HPP, Yugoslavia (and Slovenia) should have core in Trieste province at the very least. It was an ethnically mixed territory (with roughly 50-50 distribution) up until the end of WW1 (as the province Carniola of Austro-Hungarian Empire). Following WW1 it was forcibly italicized until the end of WW2 when roughly half of Italy's WW1 conquests of the former Carniola and Istria provinces reverted back to Yugoslavia (nowadays Slovenia and Croatia), with remainder left to Italy thanks to the western allies.

Already done :) We even gave Pola and Rijeka ports, to represent the former being Austria-Hungary's main naval base and the latter being Hungary's main port.
 
I tried to do some IC math based on all these planned ships. It seems that about 68% of all worldwide IC would be devoted strictly to naval ships and planes. Not much left to fight a land war. I wonder what would happen in the game if this was actually forced upon all the countries.
 
only the following nations should be able to build ships other than transports: US, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Yugoslavia, Finland, Japan, China, and the USSR. No other nation in the game should be able to build their own warships, not even the Commonwealth (they bought/received ships from the UK).
Canada and Australia both built ships, although nothing larger than a destroyer. (Canada: 4 destroyers, 60 frigates, 97 corvettes, 76 minesweepers; Australia: 3 destroyers, 12 frigates, 36 minesweepers.) British India also built four minesweepers, but I guess that's not worth accounting for. :D

A few other countries aside from the ones you listed built small ships: Norway built destroyers, torpedo boats and submarines at the Horten Naval Yard. Denmark constructed submarines and torpedo boats. The Belgian Royal Yacht, built in Antwerp, was basically a destroyer. :) Portugal buiilt several destroyers at Lisbon, although to British designs. Brazil constructed nine destoyers, although they took years longer to build than the major naval powers would have taken.

As for the Soviet flotilla leaders: according to Conway's the numbers were

Baltic Fleet, in service
1 Jan 1939: 1 FL, 12 DD
22 June 1941: 2 FL, 17 DD

Black Sea Fleet, in service
1 Jan 1939: 2 FL, 9 DD
22 June 1941: 3 FL, 11 DD

Pacific Fleet, in service
1 Jan 1939: 2 DD
22 June 1941: 2 FL, 11 DD

Under construction, 22 June 1941: 4 FL, 41 DD.

Conway's doesn't refer to aircraft carriers at all. This article mentions two light carriers, based on cruiser hulls and intended to carry 45 aircraft each, which were authorised in 1938 but not actually started by 1941 when the project was abandoned. Also in 1943 the Soviet Navy drew up ideas for a carrier based on the US Essex class, but that plan never even got off the drawing board. After the war was over, Stalin again authorised the building of two aircraft carriers, but the project was cancelled.
 
The weird thing is that I've never really understood what's so difficult in this...
You make a hull that does not leak, slap in engine, extra steel and some guns on top and you have a naval vessel.
(I clearly should be ship designer...)
 
The shape of the hull matters too, especially the bow. The only ship Germany had that was capable of operating in the Atlantic with no problems was the old Imperial Navy cruiser Emden, which was designed back when Germany had colonies. The rest of the Kriegsmarine had to be outfitted with the Atlantic Bow to prevent the ships from taking on too much water.
 
I would have loved to see the H44 project completed - Disp. 141,500 tons and a main armament of 508mm (20") guns interesting against Yamato?
 
I would have loved to see the H44 project completed - Disp. 141,500 tons and a main armament of 508mm (20") guns interesting against Yamato?

99% chance it would be sunk by that gigantic bomb the Lancasters dropped on the Tirpitz. Germany could build the biggest Battleship ever, but after the Bismarck, they never had the guts to really use them.