Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers

[Rancher]

+1

[Secret Master]

Well, if you do a search on "naval plans", with quotes, in Google, this very thread is the #5 hit. I for one think that says something positive Now, in regards to stickies, forum moderators tend to only make announcements and rules stickies in the main forum. That said, there's a "MEGATHREAD: major thread links" sticky with a massive list of 8 threads in it , so perhaps this thread could be linked there to increase the link count to an almighty 9?

By the power invested in me as an HOI3 moderator, I pronounce that this thread shall henceforth be a part of the megathread sticky.

I linked to page 1 where you have all those nifty links to specific build plans.

[TZoli]

By the power invested in me as an HOI3 moderator, I pronounce that this thread shall henceforth be a part of the megathread sticky.

I linked to page 1 where you have all those nifty links to specific build plans.

I thank you in the name of Myself and The Bromgrev as well!

[TheBromgrev]

Thanks!

[mdlusk]

subscribed, as it seems like something I really want to read all the way through several times.

[Rancher]

a great and popular decision made in the year of our lord 2012, by our leige lords the Moderators Incarnate. All hail!

[Secret Master]

Actually, it was largely selfish. I got tired of hunting for it myself.

Actually, back on topic, I was wondering why the RN gave ships to Commonwealth navies. I mean, they were desperate for convoy escorts and whatnot, so why give ships away? When you say they loaned them to Commonwealth navies, was it kind of a "here's some ships and their crews, please guard the sea lanes near your part of the Commonwealth and kill any German subs you find" or was it more of a "Hey guys, here's some old stuff we don't need in the Atlantic. Make yourselves useful, crew it up, and go looking for enemy ships near your coast to warn you of Japanese invasion."

[misterbean]

long overdue and well deserved!

[Rancher]

Actually, it was largely selfish. I got tired of hunting for it myself.

Actually, back on topic, I was wondering why the RN gave ships to Commonwealth navies. I mean, they were desperate for convoy escorts and whatnot, so why give ships away? When you say they loaned them to Commonwealth navies, was it kind of a "here's some ships and their crews, please guard the sea lanes near your part of the Commonwealth and kill any German subs you find" or was it more of a "Hey guys, here's some old stuff we don't need in the Atlantic. Make yourselves useful, crew it up, and go looking for enemy ships near your coast to warn you of Japanese invasion."

I think it was a bit of both, plus a bit of bribary perhaps

[TZoli]

Some addition to the French entry.

While two Richelieu class battleship were compete at the surrender well only the Richelieu was fully complete and the Jean Bart was almost complete while the two other, the Gascoigne and the Clemenceau was still under construction. There were plans to change the two last battleship's turret configuration to a more conventional one: 1 forward 1 aft:
http://base13.glasnet.ru/text/rich/2-8.gif

Also there were plans to convert the Jean Bart into either an Anti Aircraft Battleship (YES a BBAA) a hybrid battleship carrier like the Japanese Ise's or a full scale Carrier:
BBAA version:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...JeanBartAA.jpg
BBCV version:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...Barthybrid.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...thybridtop.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...Barthybrid.jpg
CV version:
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/..._Jean-Bart.jpg
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/...-Bart-1944.jpg

The last French Battleship design the Alsace would be built with one of the following arrangement:
3x3 380mm Guns or 3x4 480mm ones

There are also similar proposals for the French cruisers as well:
CLAA conversion of the La Marseillaise a La Galissonnière class Light Cruiser:
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/...rseillaise.jpg

There were plans to convert the Duquesne heavy cruiser into a carrier:
http://www.1940lafrancecontinue.org/...L_Duquesne.jpg
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y20...s/Duquesne.jpg

Further, 3 St Louis class heavy cruisers would be built starting around in 1940 but the design dates back to 1939. Basically an improvement over the previous heavy cruisers:
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...pboy/C5_A3.jpg
http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i1...boy/C5_SA3.jpg

As for smaller ships there would be 10 Bayard class Large destroyers slightly improved Mogadors and 10 Hoche class Large destroyers again slightly improved Mogadors and 8 L'Intrepide class normal destroyers similar to the Le Hardi class.

[Secret Master]

Question (and you guys might not be able to answer this):

The French Navy was clearly designed to protect French Colonial interests and to keep colonial supply and trade open in the event of a war. My assumption has always been that France was preparing to fight Japan and Germany. But was there ever any discussion among French military leadership of conflict or a naval arms race with the British or Americans?

[TZoli]

Question (and you guys might not be able to answer this):

The French Navy was clearly designed to protect French Colonial interests and to keep colonial supply and trade open in the event of a war. My assumption has always been that France was preparing to fight Japan and Germany. But was there ever any discussion among French military leadership of conflict or a naval arms race with the British or Americans?

Err no, the French navy always wanted the protection of the mainland and he seen his rivals are Italy and Germany. Probably Spain if he able to get a decent fleet, basically what Franco wanted.
Well the naval arms race basically ended in the Washington naval treaty, meant the proposed and not started battleships of France and Battlecruiser designs newer left the drawing boards. These ships are the Normandie and Lyon class battleships an extra or slightly modified Courbet class Battleship for Greece. and the various BC designs like the Grille and Durand-Viel projects of 1913.

[Secret Master]

Err no, the French navy always wanted the protection of the mainland and he seen his rivals are Italy and Germany. Probably Spain if he able to get a decent fleet, basically what Franco wanted.
Well the naval arms race basically ended in the Washington naval treaty, meant the proposed and not started battleships of France and Battlecruiser designs newer left the drawing boards. These ships are the Normandie and Lyon class battleships an extra or slightly modified Courbet class Battleship for Greece. and the various BC designs like the Grille and Durand-Viel projects of 1913.

Well, you learn something new everyday. I would never have thought that they were thinking in terms of a strictly Atlantic/Mediterranean naval conflict.

[Baltasar]

Besides, the British and French had an agreement that the British would protect the French Atlantic coast while the French would safeguard the Med. This agreement was in place even before World War I.

[TZoli]

Indeed, and while the British colonies are all spread over the world, France have them mostly in Africa, and the few territories in South America and the Caribbean, and the smaller islands in the Pacific, and Indian Ocean not worth to have that much defence. So Mediterranean was their primary defence area.

[Maestor]

Question (and you guys might not be able to answer this):

The French Navy was clearly designed to protect French Colonial interests and to keep colonial supply and trade open in the event of a war. My assumption has always been that France was preparing to fight Japan and Germany. But was there ever any discussion among French military leadership of conflict or a naval arms race with the British or Americans?

This is actually Kissinger's reasoning, but what he says comes down to the following: The British would always ally themselves in such a way as to maintain the balance of power on the continent because any nation that achieved dominance on the continent could threaten the UK. With Germany as the continent's most powerful nation it was only logical they sided with France. As for the US, it was isolationist as hell, no one would count on fighting it unless they had some colonial adventure in Latin America in mind.

[Secret Master]

I guess I was thinking in a post-WWII mindset that already new the threat and power posed by Japan to Indochina. Perhaps I've also played Japan too much in Vic2.

[JDunk1971]

The IJN Shinano was sunk by a single submarine (USS Archerfish) firing four torpedoes. On the other hand, IJN Kongo was sunk by USS Sealion firing one torpedo at very long range that hit almost dead center of the stern, popped the shaft seals and sank the battlecruiser.

[TheBromgrev]

Too bad sub warfare mechanics don't allow that to happen in the game. The subs will get a lucky shot off then either get sunk or retreat (what they should do), but subs never initiate combat when they have the element of surprise.

[psykopatsak]

I don't know if it has been covered, regarding the Swedish Battle cruisers that are shown in game, the three Sverige-class ships. These were basically the second generation of the Coastal defence ships (all the older ships being slow armoured heavy cruisers in game). Armoured and armed enough to be comparable to one half battleships, each carrying 2x2 280mm cannons as main armament, 200mm armour and 20knts speed, weighing in at some 7000 tons, so considerably smaller tonnage than even heavy cruisers, while armed and armoured heavy to be more than a match for any heavy cruiser, unless they manage to score torpedo hits.

Their were to be employed as a means to force any invading fleet to commit it's heavies units, and such risk them in the extremely cramped waters of the Swedish coast/archipelago, where the navy had an extensive network of "secret routes", that detailed hazardous passages with a margin of error ranging in the odd metres, through which no sane commander would follow. The navy trained a lot to be able to use these routes at relatively high speed even in bad weather or darkness. Any heavy battleship in these waters would be a sitting duck to torpedo boats, submarines or mined straights, of which the navy had plenty.

As a side note, these ships were modified to fire at extreme ranges with a more accurate and aerodynamically shaped shells, firing 24km with a destroyer or small patrol boat acting as spotter. This enabled them to function as mobile coastal fortifications.

Also, in contrast to earlier coastal defence ships, these were designed to be able to operate on the open sea, if the tactical situation deemed it possible. Only the lead ship, the HMS Sverige retained the ramminb prow, without the ram attatched, while the other, Gustav V and Drottning Victoria had ice-breaking prows.

There is a beautiful story behind their creation, how in the build up to WW1, people wanted the navy to commission another class of coastal defence ships. However, the newly elected government cancelled the project, deeming it too expensive. This caused protests and the private initiative to raise the required 13 million SEK for the ship, and in a few months time, the found could hand over 15 million SEK to Rikstagen (the swedish parlament), with the requirement that it be used for building the ship. This caused the fall of the government, and the new government proceeded to build the ship, naming it Sverige ('Sweden' in swedish) in honour of the people who founded the ship. As the WW1 broke out, two more ships were comissioned.