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Thread: Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers

  1. #121
    Ok, I understand about South America but thought such navies should be included so players can get the perspective and have some idea of what a South American navy was really like.
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  2. #122
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Well, I included links in the first post to yours, but I think you're missing a few ships.

    On a side note, only the USN entry is left. Before I write that one up, has anyone tried to follow any of these? The Spanish '39 Plan is doable at the expense of everything else, and it's possible to finish Plan Z in 1942 or so and still beat the UK and USSR. The French buildup I think is pretty much impossible, even if you completely ignore everything but the navy, because France doesn't have enough IC and is stuck with a very high consumer goods demand up until '39. Same deal with Italy, Japan, and the USSR; they don't have enough IC to even complete what they historically finished, let alone start what was planned. It's possible to complete the Dutch light cruisers and destroyers before 1940, but I haven't finished even one of the BCs.
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  3. #123
    I will have to go and check. Ye gods missing ships!
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  4. #124
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    the Royal Navy is doable, obviously. Plan Z? not if you're building a historically correct Heer and Luftwaffe. Best I got was about 1.5 of 4 combat fleets. and that was with some serious '36 ic spamming. in FtM? I doubt it since Germany can't afford to build factories like you need to anymore. there's just not enough rare left in the world (at least not among those that would still trade with you).
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  5. #125
    For realistic buildup, don't build time and cost of ships need to be adjusted?

    I mean, how do you determine what the IC cost of a ship is? We sort of know what a realistic building time is though.

  6. #126
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    The United States of America

    After WW1 and the signing of the 1922 naval treaty, the USN's main rival was determined to be Japan, as the US and UK were on friendly terms while Japan sought to expand its power in Asia. Japan's ambitions would place it as the main threat to US interests in the region (trade with China as well as its colony of the Philippines), as well as a threat to the British, French, and Dutch colonies in Southeast Asia.

    The naval doctrine of the USN was in a state of transition in 1936. The previous school of thought prior to Japan commissioning the IJN Soryu was the same as the UK's naval doctrine; secure the sealanes from submarines with destroyers, and defeat the enemy's core fleet with battleships using carriers to provide air cover. After Japan left the naval treaties in 1936, an overhaul of the USN's doctrine was made, with an increased focus on using carrier groups escorted by battleships instead of battleship groups escorted by carriers. All battleships but the 5 planned Montana's built by the US after the 1936 naval treaty were built as fast battleships, which sacrificed armor for speed in order to keep up with the USN's much faster carriers. These fast battleships were meant to provide AA fire as well as sink any Japanese cruisers attempting to attack the carriers. The ships also had large 16" guns in order to potentially fight on-par with Japan's Kongo-class Battlecruisers (the North Carolina's were designed explicitly to be able to keep up with carriers and punch through the 28-year old Kongo-class BCs' armor). Because of the nature of Pacific warfare, all cruisers after the Atlanta-class were designed with increased range and AA guns in mind over anti-surface weapons and armor, reflecting the new focus on aircraft carriers. Similarly, American submarines (Japanese too) were designed for long-range missions with the intent of attacking Japanese surface vessels, as opposed to commerce raiding. In fact, it's quite possible that American subs sunk more military tonnage than any of the other world navies, despite there being far fewer of them. Many early-model Japanese destroyers were sunk by American subs, and the Japanese super-carrier Shinano was sunk by a submarine.

    In general, from a purely objective standpoint, Japanese ships were of higher quality than the American and British ships and Japanese crews, pilots, and leaders were far better trained and experienced when Pearl Harbor was bombed. Japan's major problem was its lack of industrial output, which limited its ability to absorb losses and create new designs. Despite Japan's initial successes, they ultimately succumbed to an enemy that was able to outnumber them by 2:1 within a year, and by the end of the war had over 5 times as many ships as Japan had when everything started. As TZoli pointed out in a post after this one, the US had produced more naval tonnage by 1945 than the rest of the world's navies combined, dooming Japan's ambitions the moment it awoke the "sleeping giant".

    Note that I left escort carriers off this list, as the in-game CVE's are closer to CVL's in regards to stats and usage.

    The 1936 USN OOB, commissioned ships only
    1 Ranger-class Aircraft Carrier
    2 Lexington-class Aircraft Carriers (originally built as battlecruisers)
    1 Langley-class Light Aircraft Carrier
    0 South Dakota-class Battleships (6 planned, all cancelled due to 1922 naval treaty)*
    3 Colorado-class Battleships (4 planned, 3 finished)
    2 Tennessee-class Battleships
    3 New Mexico-class Battleships
    2 Pennsylvania-class Battleships
    2 Nevada-class Battleships
    2 New York-class Battleships
    2 Wyoming-class Battleships
    5 New Orleans-class Heavy Cruisers
    2 Portland-class Heavy Cruisers
    6 Northampton-class Heavy Cruisers
    2 Pensacola-class Heavy Cruisers
    7 Brooklyn-class Light Cruisers
    10 Omaha-class Light Cruisers (these ships were designed to be scouts for battleships)
    8 Farragut-class Destroyers
    156 Clemson-class Destroyers (161 planned, 5 cancelled)
    69 Wickes-class Destroyers (111 finished, 42 lost or repurposed by 1936)
    10 Porpoise-class Submarines
    2 Cachalot-class Submarines
    51 S-class Submarines
    27 R-class Submarines

    The Jan. 1, 1936 USN OOB, launched ships only
    2 New Orleans-class Heavy Cruisers

    Additional commissioned ships by December 1941
    1 Wasp-class Aircraft Carrier
    3 Yorktown-class Aircraft Carriers
    2 North Carolina-class Fast Battleships
    1 Wichita-class Heavy Cruiser
    2 St. Louis-class Light Cruisers
    21 Gleaves-class Destroyers
    6 Benson-class Destroyers
    12 Sims-class Destroyers
    10 Benham-class Destroyers
    5 Somers-class Destroyers
    8 Bagley-class Destroyers
    4 Gridley-class Destroyers
    18 Mahan-class Destroyers
    8 Porter-class Destroyers
    1 Gato-class Submarine
    12 Tambor-class Submarines
    10 Sargo-class Submarines
    6 Salmon-class Submarines

    Additional launched ships by December 1941 (aka they were "in the build queue")
    3 South Dakota-class Fast Battleships
    1 Cleveland-class Light Cruiser (52 planned, 3 canceled, 27 completed as CLs, 9 converted to CVLs, and 13 reordered as missile cruisers)
    4 Atlanta-class Light Cruisers
    41 Gleaves-class Destroyers
    2 Benson-class Destroyers
    2 Gato-class Submarines

    Ships completed by the end of the war
    19 Essex-class Aircraft Carriers (32 planned, 24 finished in total)
    9 Independence-class Light Aircraft Carriers (converted Cleveland CLs)
    4 Iowa-class Fast Battleships (6 planned, 4 finished)
    2 Alaska-class Heavy Cruiser (these were almost as large as battleships, and therefore could be modeled as BCs in-game; in fact, they had 12" guns and were the only CA's aside from Germany's Panzerschiffe to not have 8" gun main armaments)
    12 Baltimore-class Heavy Cruisers (14 planned, all finished)
    26 Cleveland-class Light Cruisers
    7 Atlanta-class Cruisers
    47 Gearing-class Destroyers (152 planned, 98 completed overall)
    58 Allen M. Sumner-class Destroyers
    175 Fletcher-class Destroyers
    22 Benson-class Destroyers
    31 Tench-class Submarines (146 planned, 115 canceled)
    128 Balao-class Submarines (191 planned, 128 finished)
    74 Gato-class Submarines

    Ships still under construction at the end of the war
    2 Midway-class Aircraft Carriers (3 planned, all completed)
    5 Essex-class Aircraft Carriers
    0 Montana-class Battleships (5 planned, construction never started; these were the USN's answer to Japan's Yamato-class battleships and would be SH.BBs in the game)*
    2 Iowa-class Fast Battleships
    1 Alaska-class Heavy Cruiser (6 were planned in total, only 2 finished)
    3 Oregon City-class Heavy Cruisers (10 planned, 4 finished)
    2 Batlimore-class Heavy Cruisers
    2 Worcester-class Light Cruisers (10 planned, 2 finished)
    3 Fargo-class Light Cruisers (13 planned, 2 finished, 11 canceled)
    62 Gearing-class Destroyers

    OK, to summarize all of that using game-terms, if a player wanted to follow historical US unit production with a 1936 start, s/he'd have to finish by 1945: 23 CVs, 9 CVLs, 9 BBs, 17 CAs, 41 CLs, 88 DDs (5 destroyers per unit), and 27 SSs (10 subs per unit). An additional 5 CVs, 5 SH.BB, 2 BBs, 16 CAs, 23 CLs, 21 DDs, and 18 SSs would need to be in the build queue to complete everything the US planned to build between 1936 and the end of 1945.

    *Breaking from my earlier entries, I listed these ships despite no work being started on them. I'll go back to the IJN and RN entries and add similar ships.
    Last edited by TheBromgrev; 03-03-2012 at 01:40.
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  7. #127
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    I'd suggest splitting the US entry into two posts for workability: pre-PH and post PH. just a thought.
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  8. #128
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    I'd prefer to keep everything in one post, with other posts made to let others know that the USN post is updated. I must say though, the USN post will put everything else to shame. You thought the RN, IJN, RM, or Red Navy posts were crazy? The USN post will easily cost more IC than every other naval plan in this entire thread combined, and the US actually BUILT almost everything it planned to build. The RN and IJN, despite their sheer sizes, are like children compared to the USN after Pearl Harbour. I'll get to that later, when I have time to update the USN entry.
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  9. #129
    Fleet Admiral Of Never Weres TZoli's Avatar
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    Indeed. Many hundred destroyers mostly Fletcher class, the most numerous carrier force, tons of heavy and light cruisers. Not to mention the Battleships of Iowa, North Carolina, South Dakota and the unfinished Montana classes.
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  10. #130
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    I read somewhere they build more sheer tonnage on their own than all the other major "players" (article's words not mine) combined. guess its true.
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  11. #131
    Fleet Admiral Of Never Weres TZoli's Avatar
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    Midway CV 3x 64700
    Ticonderoga CV 14x 36400
    Essex CV 10x 35000
    Wasp CV 18500
    Yorktown CV 3x 25500
    Independence CVL 9x 14800
    Saipan CVL 2x 17800

    These are just only the Carriers post 1936 that are represented ingame and their total tannage are 1.317.500 tons

    Edit:
    Battleships:
    North Carolina 2x 45500
    South Dakota 4x 47500
    Iowa 4x 58500
    Together: 515.000tons

    Large Crusiers:
    Alaska 2x 34300
    68600tons altogether

    Heavy Cruisers post 1936
    Des Moines 3x 21000
    Oregon City 3x 17700
    Baltimore 14x 18000
    Wichita 14600
    Together: 382.700tons

    Light Cruisers:
    Worcester 2x 18000
    Fargo 4x 14500
    Oakland 7x 8400
    Cleveland 27x 14100
    Atlanta 4x 8300
    St. Louis 2x 13300
    Brooklyn 7x 12200
    Altogether: 678.700tons

    Destroyers:
    Gearing 98x 3500
    Allen M. Sumner 58x 3500
    Fletcher 175x 2500
    Benson 30x 2500
    Gleaves 62x 2500
    Sims 12x 2500
    Benham 10x 2300
    Somers 5x 2100
    Altogether: 1.277.000tons

    All ships (no subs included): 4.239.500tons !!!
    Last edited by TZoli; 09-09-2011 at 20:07.
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  12. #132
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZoli View Post
    4.239.500tons !!!
    what would that equate to if combined? the Death Star?
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by misterbean View Post
    what would that equate to if combined? the Death Star?
    It would have been if Dick Cheney had been FDR's VP.

  14. #134
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    OK, just made an update to the USN entry. I'm sure I'm missing some stuff, so the the entry isn't final yet. And yes, those numbers are correct AFAIK, and 19 Essex-class fleet carriers were finished by the time the war ended. During that same time frame Japan finished 7 carriers and the UK built 5, to put things into perspective.
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  15. #135
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBromgrev View Post
    And yes, those numbers are correct AFAIK, and 19 Essex-class fleet carriers were finished by the time the war ended. During that same time frame Japan finished 7 carriers and the UK built 5, to put things into perspective.
    Whoa. I knew that they built more than anyone else, but I didn't think the USA built 50% more than the next two power combined.

    I mean, I never build that many CVs in HOI3 as the USA, and I can abuse IC with the best of them in the pre-war years.
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  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    Whoa. I knew that they built more than anyone else, but I didn't think the USA built 50% more than the next two power combined.

    I mean, I never build that many CVs in HOI3 as the USA, and I can abuse IC with the best of them in the pre-war years.
    Here is some additional discussion about Japan versus the US in terms of production. And yes, the US truly is a giant in terms of production.
    http://www.combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

  17. #137
    Fleet Admiral Of Never Weres TZoli's Avatar
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    Compare to other naval powers: (all post 1936 builds and not includes the modernizations and first ships of a class launched before 1945-46) Again thes not includes the Submarines!!!

    United Kingdom:

    Implacable CV 2x 32100
    Unicorn CV 20300
    Indomitable CV 29700
    Illustrious CV 4x 28600
    Ark Royal CV 27700
    Majestic CVL 5x 19600
    Colossus CVL 10x 18300
    Together: 537.000tons

    King George V BB 5x 45400
    Vanguard BB 52000
    All: 279.000tons

    Southampton CL 5x 11500
    Gloucester CL 3x 12700
    Edinburgh CL 2x 15000
    Dido CLAA 11x 7400
    Bellona CLAA 5x 7600
    Fiji CL 8x 11000
    Ceylon CL 3x 11000
    Minotaur CL 3x 12000
    Tiger CL 3x 12000
    Together: 438.000tons

    Weapon DD 4x 2900
    Battle DD 26x 3400
    Cr DD 8x 2500
    Co DD 8x 2500
    Ch DD 8x 2600
    Ca DD 8x 2500
    Z DD 8x 2500
    W DD 8x 2500
    V DD 8x 2300
    U DD 8x 2500
    T DD 8x 2500
    S DD 8x 2600
    R DD 8x 2500
    Q DD 8x 2400
    P DD 8x 2300
    O DD 8x 2300
    M DD 8x 2800
    L DD 8x 2800
    N DD 8x 2400
    K DD 8x 2300
    J DD 8x 2300
    Tribal DD 27x 2500
    Together: 544.300tons
    Altogether: 1.798.300 slightly more than just the US carriers....

    Japan:

    Soryu CV 19800
    Shokau CV 2x 32100
    Hiyo CV 2x 28300
    Taiho CV 37700
    Unryu CV 3x 22800
    Shinano CV 71900
    Ibuki CVL 14800
    Chitose CVL 2x 15300
    Ryuo CVL 16700
    Zuiho CVL 2x 14200
    Together: 409.100tons

    Yamato BB 2x 72800
    Together 145.600tons

    Mogami CA 15100
    Tone CA 2x 15400
    Together: 45.900tons

    Katori CL 3x 6200
    Agano CL 4x 7600
    Oyodo CL 11400
    Together: 60.400tons

    Shimakaze 3000
    Yugumo 19x 2500
    Akizuki 12x 3700
    Kagero 19x 2500
    Asashio 10x 2600
    Together: 168.400tons
    Altogether: 829.400tons Less then the US Destroyers!!!!

    Germany:

    Bismarck BB 2x 53500
    Scharnhorst BC 2x 38900
    Together: 184.800tons

    Admiral Hipper CA 5x 18600
    93.000tons

    Elbing DD 15x 1800
    1936 B DD 3x 3500
    1936 A Mob DD 21x 3700
    Narvik DD 8x 3500
    1936 DD 6x 3500
    Together: 164.200
    Altogether: 442.000tons

    Soviet Union:

    Kirov CA/CL 2x 10000
    Maxim Gorky CA/CL 4x 9800
    Chapayev CL 5x 15200
    Together: 89.600tons

    Ognevoi DD 13x 2900
    Soobrazitelny DD 18x 2300
    Tashkent DD 3200
    Gnevnyi DD 30x 2400
    Together: 154.300
    Altogether: 243.900tons

    Italy:

    Littorio BB 3x 46000
    138.000tons

    Capitani Romani CL 3x 5600
    Duca degli Abruzzi CL 2x 11700
    Together: 40.200tons

    Soldati DD 17x 2500
    Alfredo Oriani DD 4x 2300
    Together: 51.700tons
    Altogether: 229.900tons

    France:

    Richelieu BB 2x 50000
    Dunkerque BC 2x 36400
    Together: 172.800tons

    La Galissonniere CL 10.800tons (still under construction in 1936 january 1)

    Le Hardi DD 12x 2600
    Mogador DD 2x 4000
    Together: 39.200tons
    Altogether: 222.800tons Less then the US heavy Crusiers

    All Non US Altogether: 3.766.300 Less then the entire US navy built!!!!
    All Allies Altogether: 2.265.000tons!
    minus Soviet Union: 2.021.100tons!
    All Axis Navy: 1.501.300tons!!!!

    THE US outbuilt all navy altogether!!!!!
    Fully Colourized Provinces and terrain pictures:
    Coloured Provinces Mod:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...d.php?t=445787

    Historical Plausibility Project:
    http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...bility-Project

  18. #138
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    It's no secret. The USA focused on the navy heavily, because it was central both to its national interests and to the eventual defeat of the Axis. Just think about it - they were surrounded by oceans and had to provide equipment to pretty much everyone, from the Free French to the Soviet Union, and they had to fight the Japanese (which had a sizeable navy on its own) AND protect their convoys. Who cares if you have 125016751515 troops if you cannot ship them overseas? Who cares if you produce 14519065159016 aircraft and 150161651111 tanks if the enemy can sink your transports? I don't even want to think about logistical requirements of all Allied operations...

    On comparison, their land forces were a joke in 1939, i.e. their army was several times smaller than the Polish one. They didn't really need them during peacetime, because the US mainland was not in danger. It was greatly expanded during the war, of course.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    It's no secret. The USA focused on the navy heavily, because it was central both to its national interests and to the eventual defeat of the Axis. Just think about it - they were surrounded by oceans and had to provide equipment to pretty much everyone, from the Free French to the Soviet Union, and they had to fight the Japanese (which had a sizeable navy on its own) AND protect their convoys. Who cares if you have 125016751515 troops if you cannot ship them overseas? Who cares if you produce 14519065159016 aircraft and 150161651111 tanks if the enemy can sink your transports? I don't even want to think about logistical requirements of all Allied operations...

    On comparison, their land forces were a joke in 1939, i.e. their army was several times smaller than the Polish one. They didn't really need them during peacetime, because the US mainland was not in danger. It was greatly expanded during the war, of course.
    Very true. They also only had about ~100 divisions active, a lot less than Germany and the USSR. But they build loads more trucks and planes and ammo for the other Allies, including the Russians.

  20. #140
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    I've never questioned US naval building priorities. I knew they built a lot. It was just the sheer number of CVs that surprised me. I mean, it's such a large number that it makes it look like the USA could have lost all carriers that fought at Midway and still have been fine to win the war.
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