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Thread: Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Rancher View Post
    I would have loved to see the H44 project completed - Disp. 141,500 tons and a main armament of 508mm (20") guns interesting against Yamato?
    some say the ship would have been to big for the north sea.
    but what would one big ship change when GB could simply send dozens of heavy ships and hundreds of planes?

  2. #42
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Yeah, pretty much. In the early to mid thirties only Japan realized how important carriers would be, and the rest of the world's current and former naval powers believed that battleships would remain the core of the fleet. If a H44 had been finished, the UK or US would've sunk it with a relatively cheap bomb, just like the Yamato.
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBromgrev View Post
    Yeah, pretty much. In the early to mid thirties only Japan realized how important carriers would be, and the rest of the world's current and former naval powers believed that battleships would remain the core of the fleet. If a H44 had been finished, the UK or US would've sunk it with a relatively cheap bomb, just like the Yamato.
    Yeah if they didn't already blow it up when it was in the shipyard during a regular raid.

  4. #44
    Yes it was past the day of the BB but might have been a grand sight, still:- Further to the Italian BB program
    Of the 4 Littorio Class 1 wa never completed, the Impero, she was broken up incomplete 1948-50
    3 were commissioned, Littorio 6/5/40; Roma 14/6/42; Vittorio Veneto 28/4/40
    CV Aquila scuttled April 1945 could/would have carried 26 reggiane 2001 plus a further 15 suspended from the hanger deck and a further 10 could be parked on the flight deck. A folding wing version of the Reggiane 2001 was being developed in which case she could have carried 66. In fact she was nearly completed and only delayed by sabotage to prevent her falling into German hands, until damaged by air raids in 1944.

  5. #45
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rancher View Post
    3 were commissioned, Littorio 6/5/40; Roma 14/6/42; Vittorio Veneto 28/4/40
    Looks like I missed the Roma. Thanks for pointing that out, I've updated Italy's entry.
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  6. #46
    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    I forgot the purpose of this thread. Should we try to build these? My guess is you need 15 more entries to Field Marshall rank and this helps get you there.

  7. #47
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    LOL. No, the purpose was to list this info in case anyone wants to try and build the big fleets, and to give modders information on what each country was capable of building. I chose to put the thread in the main forum so people who don't play mods can still learn something and try to build these naval plans if they want.

    Overall, from a modding or patch perspective, starting techs and OOBs should be adjusted, as it's next to impossible for most nations to research enough techs to launch the ships I listed in time. Some nations like Spain which had a domestic naval industry can't even build their starting navies. Note that the 3 South American navies and Turkey shouldn't be able to build what they start with, as they purchased everything second-hand. Another example of a needed adjustment would be China's missing cruisers.

    I've tried Spain's '38 fleet plan and it's actually do-able with the exception of the carriers. Spain has low MP, so it can't expand the army too much anyway, and ships don't cost a lot MP and are a good use of excess IC if you want to take advantage of Spain's geographical position and destroy the Allies convoys.
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  8. #48
    jju_57: You are getting very cynical in your old age. Tut tut
    TheBromgrev: your info a bit light on SS build post '36 The following is correct to my knowledge but always willing to hear from anyone
    Foca class 3; Marcello class 11; Brin class 5; Liuzz1 4; Marconi 6: Cagni 4.
    Romolo class 12 planned 2 built. These were designed as transports with a capacity of 600 tons, and were intended to carry special cargoes to and from Japan, such as rubber.
    Accialo class 13; flutto type1 12 ordered 11 built; type2 24 ordered 15 laid down none completed
    DD Soldati class 19 ordered 18 completed (Carrista broken up on stocks)
    Hope this is of assistance If you need anymore info on naval programmes always ready to help where I can
    Even if this sort of info is too detailed for planning build in the game, I do beleive that the overall balance of build shows how a countrys emphasis would lay, and in that way, if you want a fairly realistic game gives direction even if you dont go the whole hog and build everything
    Last edited by Rancher; 05-04-2011 at 23:46. Reason: Additional comment

  9. #49
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    French Third Republic

    The Marine Nationale was the fourth largest navy in the world when the war started, after the UK, US, and Japan. The MN's pre-war buildup was centered around the two tasks the French government had for it: to be able to tackle the Italian navy on equal or greater terms, and to blockade Germany and hunt down the surface raiders. As we now know, the French were confident that their army could hold the Germans at bay, and indeed, if you were to look at both OOBs on paper and compare them, then the obvious winner would've been France. However, hindsight shows that there were a large variety of factors that led to France's defeat, and one of them was the redirection of resources from the army and airforce to the navy.

    Like Germany's planned Spähkreuzers, France also had large destroyers. When the French heavy DDs were patrolling with other Allied ships, the Allies referred to them as cruisers instead of destroyers due to their size. That makes it difficult to translate these ships to in-game units- are they high level destroyers, low level cruisers, or should a new unit be made for them?

    Overall, the MN underwent a truly massive overhaul starting in 1932 in response to Weimar Germany's Panzerschiffe, fielding the world's first "fast battleships". The French fleet was so advanced and powerful that the Royal Navy could not under any circumstances allow it to be used by Germany, leading to the the Attack on Mers-el-Kebir by the UK against their former French allies.

    The 1936 French Naval OOB, commissioned ships only:
    1 Bearn-class CV
    3 Bretagne-class BB
    3 Courbet-class BB
    1 Danton-class BB (scrapped in '37)
    1 Algérie-class CA
    4 Suffren-class CA
    2 Duquesne-class CA
    1 La Galissoniere-class CL
    1 Émile Bertin-class CL
    1 Jeanne d'Arc-class CL
    3 Duguay-Trouin-class CL
    6 Fantasque-class heavy DD
    6 Vauquelin-class heavy DD
    6 Aigle-class heavy DD
    6 Guépard-class heavy DD
    6 Chacal-class heavy DD
    14 Adroit-class DD
    12 Bourrasque-class DD
    1 Surcouf-class SS
    31 Redoutable-class SS
    4 Circé-class SS
    4 Sirène-class SS

    Ships still under construction in '36; all were completed:
    1 Dunkerque-class BC (officially a "fast battleship" F.BB, as opposed to a BB; whether it's a BB or BC in-game is up to your personal preference)
    4 La Galissoniere-class CL
    6 Minerve-class SS

    Additional Ships that were finished by the time France surrendered:
    2 Richelieu-class BB
    1 Dunkerque-class BC
    1 La Galissoniere-class CL
    2 Mogador-class heavy DD
    8 Le Hardi-class DD

    Additional ships that were planned but not finished:
    2 Joffre-class CV (construction started on 1 and captured, construction on the other never started)
    4 Alsace-class BB (never built)
    2 Richelieu-class BB (construction started & both captured by Germany)
    3 De Grasse-class CL (construction on 1 started, Germany tried to convert it to a carrier)
    4 Le Hardi-class DD

    So, to sum that up, when the war started France had 1 CV, 8 BB, 2 BC, 7 CA, 11 CL, 32 heavy DD (about 6 or 7 in-game units), 34 DD (about 6 in-game units), and 46 submarines (about 4 or 5 in-game units). An additional 2 CV, 6 BB, 3 CL, and 4 DD were planned or under construction. In-game terms, the completed fleet would be 3 CV, 14 BB, 2 BC, 7 CA, 14 CL, 13 to 18 DD, and 4 or 5 SS. Because CA's aren't screens like they should be, that would be a total of 26 capital ships and 27 to 32 screens.

    My info mostly came from Wikipedia, so it's entirely possible I'm missing something or have the wrong numbers. However, as usual, Wikipedia's summary article for the French navy pre-WW2 is wrong and is contradicted by the articles for the individual ships. To make things worse, that false information has been spread around the 'net to the point where almost every other information site uses that particular Wikipedia article's bad info
    Last edited by TheBromgrev; 11-02-2012 at 19:45.
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  10. #50
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    I don't know about the accuracy or the ship-classes, but one website has the following (note that destroyers and subs are counted as squadrons or divisions): 5 BC, 18 light DD, 7 CA, 11 CL, 1 CV, 21 SS, 6 DD at the start of the war for France. I assume the light DD are regular DD in-game, while the DD's listed are actually heavy destroyer squadrons. no mention of any BB
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  11. #51
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Maybe that site is counting the dreadnought-type battleships as battlecruisers? Even it that's the case, it doesn't list everything France had, as there were 10 French capital ships when the war started: Richelieu, Jean Bart, Dunkerque, Strasbourg, Bretagne, Provence, Lorraine, Courbet, Jean Bart (renamed Ocean in '37 so the 2nd Richelieu-class BB could use the name), and Paris. The Clemenceau and Gascogne were the names of the remaining two Richelieu-class BBs, and the Alsace-class were to be named Alsace, Normandie, Flandre, and Bourgogne. Unlike Germany, France named their ships once they were ordered. In contrast, Germany named its ships after they were launched.
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  12. #52
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jju_57 View Post
    I forgot the purpose of this thread. Should we try to build these? My guess is you need 15 more entries to Field Marshall rank and this helps get you there.
    What do you know, I've reached Field Marshall rank
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  13. #53
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    Empire of Japan

    The Imperial Japanese Navy was the third largest in the world. It was also the most advanced navy in the world. Japan was the first to build purpose-built aircraft carriers (IJN Hosho), the first to build destroyers with multi-purpose guns that could be used against ships and aircraft (IJN Fubuki), the first nation to use oxygen-fueled torpedoes (Type 93 torpedo, the best throughout the war), the first nation to use torpedo tubes in splinter-proof turrets (IJN Fubuki), the first nation to create ships with 14" guns (IJN Kongo), the first nation to build ships with 16" guns (IJN Nagato), and the only nation to build ships with 18" guns (IJN Yamato). The IJN was admired by the other naval powers, and its innovations copied. The IJN's night fighting capabilities were also the best in the world; no other navy came close to the training and experience the IJN had during night fights. In addition, the blueprints for the planned German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin and its sister ship the Peter Strasser (and in extension, the planned Spanish carriers) came from the IJN Akagi aircraft carrier.

    The IJN was created with two conflicting doctrines in mind; to take over the European colonies and defeat the USN, which was correctly deemed much more dangerous than the aging RN. On one hand, due to Japan's reliance on external resources like the UK, Japan had to be able to project power across long distances. Carriers fit this role nicely, as planes could reach further inland than a battleship's guns, and were much more flexible.

    However, the second focus of beating the USN meant that the IJN should operate close to home, with the aim of attritioning the USN then soundly defeating the survivors. The IJN's pre-war plan to beat the USN was to use its Pacific island holdings to harass the USN using air strikes, cruiser and destroyer attacks, and submarine amushes, all attacking at night; the Type 93 torpedo mentioned above was designed and created with exactly this type of warfare in mind. Then, once the USN got close to Japan itself, Japan's fresh battleships would strike and eliminate the USN in one decisive battle. As a result, Japan was unique in that its submarines were specifically designed and its crews trained to hunt warships instead of merchant shipping. In addition, Japanese destroyers were designed more as large torpedo boats than traditional western ASW ships, reflected by the high percentage of Japanese destroyers being sunk by American submarines.

    As history has shown us, Japan's Decisive Battle Plan doctrine would lead to its ultimate defeat, because precious resources would be diverted from carrier and airplane production to building the Yamato-class battleships (take a look at the last list), which proved to be worthless in actual combat. The proponents of aircraft carriers proved to be correct, but by the time this realization occurred it was too late. Japan's hopes for a decisive win were destroyed by the very ships it intended to achieve such a victory with.

    As a result of the opposing doctrines, Japan's ASW capabilities were poor, and unable to deal with Allied submarine raids against its civilian and supply convoys. This lead to the supply shortages Japanese troops in the Pacific experienced. You'll notice in the last list a huge focus on destroyers that never materialized, which reflected the IJN's leadership realizing their ASW capabilities were inadequate.

    TL;DR - the IJN was meant to kick lots of ass and do so extremely quickly and efficiently. However, the IJN's battle doctrines did not factor in ship losses and the sheer size of the US industry. Japanese ships also were designed with firepower and speed over protections in mind, due to the limitations of the naval treaties it signed. As a result, many IJN ships were lost after taking a single torpedo or bomb hit, and were much more vulnerable than the more heavily armored USN and RN ships.

    A note about Japan's carriers. The notation CVE refers to RN and USN escort carriers, which were slow ships designed to escort convoys and hunt submarines. In contrast, Japan fielded light carriers, CVL. These ships were simply smaller aircraft carriers; they were just as fast as normal fleet vessels and served the same purpose as normal fleet carriers. Often, info sites like Wikipedia will list CVL's as normal fleet carriers, when in fact these ships were not fleet carriers, but light carriers.

    Japan, 1936 naval OOB
    1 Akagi-class CV
    1 Kaga-class CV
    1 Ryujo-class CVL
    1 Hosho-class CVL
    2 Mogami-class CA
    4 Takao-class CA
    4 Myoko-class CA
    2 Aoba-class CA
    2 Furutaka-class CA
    2 Kasuga-class CA
    3 Sendai-class CL (8 planned, 5 canceled due to the 1922 Washington treaty)
    6 Nagara-class CL
    1 Yubari-class CL
    5 Kuma-class CL
    2 Tenryu-class CL
    6 Hatsuharu-class DD
    24 Fubuki-class DD
    12 Mutsiki-class DD
    9 Kamikaze-class DD (ironically, all were sunk by US submarines...)
    8 Wakatake-class DD
    15 Minekaze-class DD
    21 Momi-class DD
    25 Kaidai-class SS
    6 Junsen-class SS
    18 Type L-class SS
    22 Kaichu-class SS

    Japan, ships launched by Jan. 1, 1936
    2 Nagato-class BB (undergoing reconstruction)
    2 Ise-class BB (undergoing reconstruction)
    1 Fuso-class BB (undergoing reconstruction)
    4 Kongo-class BC (undergoing reconstruction, reclassed as fast battleships after reconstruction)
    1 Soryu-class CV
    1 Mogami-class CA
    4 Kaidai-class SS
    2 Junsen-class SS
    1 Kaichu-class SS

    Japan, ships finished by December 7, 1941
    2 Shokaku-class CV
    1 Soryu-class CV
    2 Zuiho-class CVL
    1 Fuso-class BB (reconstructed from 1937 to 1940)
    2 Tone-class CA
    1 Mogami-class CA
    3 Katori-class CL (4 ordered, 3 completed)
    19 Kagero-class DD (note: 22 were planned, but the extra 3 were actually dummy ships to cover up the Yamato's budget)
    10 Asashio-class DD
    29 Otu-class SS

    Japan, ships built or under construction between the start of its entry in WW2 and its surrender
    5 Yamato-class BB (2 finished, 1 converted to carrier, 1 scrapped, 1 never laid down)
    1 Shinano-class CV (the converted BB from above, sunk 10 days after commissioning by a single submarine torpedo)
    16 Unryu-class CV (3 finished, rest canceled to divert funds to the Shinano)
    1 Taiho-class CV
    2 Hiyo-class CV
    1 Ibuki-class CVL
    2 Chitose-class CVL
    1 Ryuho-class CVL
    1 Ibuki-class CA (repurposed to CVL while under construction, see above)
    2 Oyodo-class CL (only 1 finished)
    4 Agano-class CL
    80 Tachibana-class DD (only 14 finished)
    74 Matsu-class DD (only 18 finished)
    17 Shimakaze-class heavy DD (1 finished)
    38 Yugumo-class DD (19 finished, 1 was ready before Pearl Harbor)
    39 Akizuki-class DD (12 finished)
    23 Sen Taka-class SS (3 finished)
    18 Sen Toku-class CV.SS (3 finished; these were submarine aircraft carriers, designed to carry 3 seaplanes and conduct raids on the US West Coast and Panama Canal)
    20 Hei-class SS
    6 Kou-class SS
    Last edited by TheBromgrev; 23-10-2014 at 03:48.
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  14. #54
    A good website to checkout for the IJN ship specs, OOB, etc,etc is http://www.combinedfleet.com/

    Really good site with a lot of good info on Carriers, BBs, Doctrine, etc

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Krauts View Post
    A good website to checkout for the IJN ship specs, OOB, etc,etc is http://www.combinedfleet.com/

    Really good site with a lot of good info on Carriers, BBs, Doctrine, etc
    And dont forget to take a look at the comparison of the worlds most powerful battleships of world war 2. http://www.combinedfleet.com/baddest.htm

  16. #56
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    If anyone cares, the Mogami CA's would "officially" be classified as CL's in '36. They didn't get the 8" guns until '39 (they were completed with triple 6's), and nitpicky event writers would want to remove and re-add them as CA's at that time. They were built for them and the guns were ready. Gotta love treaty limitations.
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  17. #57
    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheBromgrev View Post
    What do you know, I've reached Field Marshall rank
    Congrats to you!!!

  18. #58
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jju_57 View Post
    Congrats to you!!!
    Why thanks

    Just a notice, but I "finished" Japan's entry and added more info to Italy's and Spain's entries.
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  19. #59
    Field Marshal misterbean's Avatar
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    on a somewhat-related basis (okay, I'm too lazy to start a new threat for it), does someone know how many divisions a naval base can hold per level? I mean infantry divs. for instance, if I invade New York, with its lvl-10 naval base, how many divisions can I supply through there?
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  20. #60
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    9,644
    Ports, without any modifiers from technology or ministers, can bring in 6 supplies per level. A regular 1944 infantry brigade eats up 0.9 supplies without any modifiers from leaders or ministers.

    So, since a level 10 port can bring in 60 supplies, that implies it can support at a minimum 66 infantry brigades, or 22 triangular infantry divisions with no support brigades. Since you'll likely have supply lowering leaders and ministers, and the port efficiency techs researched, you can support quite a few more troops through that one port than the minimum.
    The Historical Plausibility Project - 1.0.4 (final) for HoI3, 2.04 (final) for SF, 3.0.0 (final) for FtM, 3.3.2 (beta) for TFH
    Alt-History: Code Geass Timeline - v1.8 for Victoria 2: A House Divided (final), v2.2 for Heart of Darkness, based on the Pop Demand mod


    My information thread about ww2 naval expansion for the world's naval powers, large and small. Last update October 25, 2014; corrected the Japanese entry.

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