Naval Plans for the World's Naval Powers

[TheBromgrev]

This is just an informational post for anyone who might be interested. I did some research lately on the WW2 naval buildups and build plans for the various European naval powers. I mainly did so because I like to play naval underdog nations. I can't claim that everything is 100% correct, as there's a lot of information out there both true and false to dig through, and sometimes popular sources aren't always the correct ones. The original purpose of the thread was to focus on a few of the non-major naval nations, but it's since expanded to include every country that could build their own warships.

During my research I realized that Wikipedia's English Plan Z entry is complete and utter #%$@. The background info is mostly wrong, and the total ships of the Plan Z fleet are also wrong. Since some people like to play historical games and try builds that aren't always the best, I've compiled a few lists of what various nations built or planned to build and I've tried to use the most reliable sources I can find. That way, if you're interested in the subject you'll have a place to get accurate information from instead of bad info propagated throughout the internet to the extent that most people don't realize the information is wrong (Wikipedia's Plan Z article, I'm looking at you!). If anyone else wants to add new info or corrections, then please do so. Maybe this thread can turn into a go-to for those who are interested in trying out historical naval builds.

As a side note, if you want to try and convert the ships below to in-game units, then remember that the in-game DDs and SSs are groups of ships, not individual ones. PI has stated that DD units contain between 2-5 destroyers, and SS units contain between 5-10 subs. If you're using a mod with torpedo boats, then those units probably represent 10 ships.

Also, the detailed tech components that determine what model your ship is in-game can be found in the folder ../HOI3/units/models, or in ../HOI3/mod/mod_name/units/models if you're playing a mod that uses the mod folder. That folder contains all of the models for each country, so if you want to know what techs you need to research to build the exact Vittorio Veneto-class (also known as Littorio-class) battleships for Italy, you'd open up ITA - ships.txt and research what the battleship.4 entry says. You can find the model names in the file ../HOI3/localisation/models.csv. Note that there's a typo for the Italian battleship I just mentioned; it's listed as a level 3 BB in the localization file, but a level 4 BB in the model file (both start counting at 0, so those are not the same!). Sometimes there isn't a special model for a ship but there's a country-specific localization for a generic model. If you open the file ../HOI3/localisation/Models.csv and see something in there that isn't defined in the models folder, for example the Dutch Zeven Provinciën-class level 2 CL, then to build the right model you'll need to research all tech levels that match the class level. Using the Zeven Provinciën-class example, you'd need to research all level 2 light cruiser techs to build that model ship. The Scharnhorst is a level 4 ship, so to build the Dutch Design 1047 Battlecruiser you'd need to research all level 4 battlecruiser techs.

You'll also see the terms "commissioned" and "launched" thrown around the various entries. To clarify, there are 4 stages a ship goes through before it's combat ready. The first is the design stage, which is represented in-game by researching techs. The 2nd is the construction phase, also called "laid down", in which the ship's hull is built. The 2nd phase is represented by picking out which components you want for your ship before you hit the build button. At this point the various components of the ship could be adjusted in the design, so if it turned out that more armor was desired, it could be added here. The 3rd phase, launch, is when the hull is completed and the interior is being fitted. Aside from small guns like AA ones, at this point the ship's components couldn't be changed, and this phase is represented in-game when the ship is placed in the build queue. The last phase is commission, when the ship is completed and its crew trained and ready for combat. In-game, a ship is commissioned when you're able to place it onto the map.

Finally, when a ship was named varied by country. For example, the Germans and Soviets only named their ships when they were launched, the Italians named their ships when they were laid down, while the French named theirs when the ship was ordered, before any design work was done. That's why we don't know the names of the 2 German carriers that were to be built after the Graf Zeppelin and can only guess that the name of the 2nd German Graf Zeppelin-class carrier was to be the Peter Strasser, while we know the names of all 4 Alsace-class Battleships the French planned to build even though none of the ships were laid down and construction never started.

Fleet Compositions and Unit Descriptions

Currently finished navies. Click the country name(s) for a link to its post:
German Reich and Spanish State
Kingdom of the Netherlands and Kingdom of Italy
Union of Soviet Socialist Republics
Republic of Finland and The Republic of China
French Third Republic
Empire of Japan
United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Kingdom of Norway and Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Sweden
Polish Second Republic
Kingdom of Croats, Serbs, and Slovenes
United States of America

South American Navies compiled by Rancher. Click the country name for a link to its post:
Brazil
Argentina
Chile

I got most of my sources from this outside WW2 history forum: axishistory. Please note that the link is to an outside forum that isn't affiliated with Paradox Interactive, and Paradox is not responsible for any content on that forum. I prefer to get information from there as opposed to Wikipedia, because pretty much every post has a book or two cited as a source as well as Amazon links, whereas Wikipedia doesn't have that kind of oversight with its members.

[TheBromgrev]

German Reich

Of special note is the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, which limited Germany's navy to 35% of the Royal Navy for all ship types, with an exception for submarines (aka Germany was allowed to build of each class up to 35% of the Royal Navy's tonnage of that specific class). In regards to submarines, Germany was allowed to have its total submarine tonnage be no more than 45% of the Royal Navy's total submarine tonnage (I think; the wording of paragraph f in the link above is chock full of "legalese" and hard to decipher which "total tonnage" the 45% refers to, the RN's submarine tonnage or its total tonnage). Germany's goals in pursuing the agreement was to get British approval in regards to expanding the German navy and therefore improve relations, and to send a signal to the UK that Germany didn't want to repeat the pre-WW1 naval arms race. The UK's goal with the agreement was to limit Germany to building a "balanced fleet", which the UK felt was much less dangerous and easier to destroy than a Kreuzerkrieg (cruiser war) fleet. The UK felt that a German navy composed entirely of cruisers and submarines would be devastating to the UK and very difficult to defeat, and thus felt it won a victory when Germany agreed to limit construction to 35% of the UK's fleet on a per-class basis.

Germany, ships commissioned in 1936
* 2 Deutschland-class pre-Dreadnought Battleships (despite having the same class-name as the Panzerschiffe, these are actual battleships commissioned in 1908; these old pre-dreadnoughts were hopelessly obsolete when commissioned, let alone in 1936; the Schleswig-Holstein fired the first shots of WW2 by attacking the Polish base at Westerplatte)
* 2 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe (fancy name for heavy cruisers with 11" guns instead of the 8" guns every other CA used due to treaty limitations, these ships were to be used as commerce raiders)
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 12 Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats (these ships were the size of destroyers but armed exclusively with AA guns, mines, and torpedoes; these are the destroyers in the 1936 OOB)
* 8 Type IIB-class submarines (the Type IIs were coastal subs)
* 6 Type IIA-class submarines

Germany, ships launched by 1936
* 1 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 4 1934-class Destroyers
* 10 Type IIB-class submarines
* 2 Type I-class submarines (ocean-going subs)

Even before the rise of Hitler and the NSDAP, Germany was considering attempt to rearm its navy in violation of Versailles. In 1932, Reichswehrminister Wilhelm Groener presented a plan to build a carrier, expand Germany's destroyer force (which didn't exist at the time), and establish naval aviation and submarine arms for the Reichsmarine. To this end, after WW1 the Weimar Republic created a dummy Dutch firm known as NV Ingenieurskantoor voor Scheepsbouw, which designed, built, and sold submarines to Turkey, Finland, the USSR, and Spain. IvS also designed the Scharnhort-class ships and their Dutch equivalent, the Design 1047-class battlecruiser. The Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were designed shortly after the NSDAP coming to power and after the 1934 Build Plan below was created. The Anglo-German Naval Agreement was critical to Germany in part due to the fact that the Scharnhorst was already under construction, and Hitler wanted to legitimize its construction with the UK.

Germany, 1934 Build Plan (pre German-Anglo Naval Agreement), additional ships only
* 3 Aircraft Carriers (none started)
* 0 or 2 Battleships (the first two Panzerschiffe in this plan were upgraded to fast battleships in response to the French Dunkerque and became the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau; this was done prior to the Anglo-German Naval Agreement, so I put those ships here since their funding came from this build plan)
* 8 or 6 Panzerschiffe (the KMS Graf Spee was started prior to this plan and not included in the 8 additional ships; 2 of these ships were upgraded to battleships in the design phase)
* 18 cruisers (no distinction made between heavy and light in the source I found; I would assume CLs)
* 48 destroyers
* 72 submarines

So, to sum that up, the 1934 build plan would result in a Kriegsmarine consisting of, using in-game units, 2 BC (the pre-dreadnoughts), 3 CV, 11 CA, 24 CL, 10-16 DD (depends on if you want DD units to be 3 ships or 5), 7-15 SS (depends on if you think subs units have 5 ships or 10), and be completed by 1949. The reason for the long buildup time is because when this plan was made, Germany still had to adhere to the Versaille Treaty limitations, and the Germans felt that by 1949 they could've gained the necessary knowledge to build aircraft carriers (Germany had started converting the passenger liner Ausonia into a carrier near the end of WW1, but didn't finish it, and thus had no experience building such ships since then) and change the global political situation to allow them to build the larger ships. Germany also didn't want to antagonize the UK, which Hitler sought in 1934 as a potential ally against the French and Soviets.

Of note is that the 26 submarines (the 4 in-game units) completed or "in the build queue" in the 1936 start are from this build plan, as well as the destroyers in the build queue. I have no idea what the level II destroyers already finished in the '36 vanilla OOB are, because the level II destroyers in the build queue are the 4 1934-class destroyers I mentioned above. The level I destroyers are the Möwe-class heavy torpedo boats. Also, building the Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as a replacement for two of the Panzerschiffe would fit into the '34 build plan, because those ships were designed and construction started shortly after the '34 build plan was made, after Hitler was persuaded to upgrade the ships from being Panzerschiffe to battleships.

Later expansion plans:

Germany, 1938 Build Plan III, total fleet size
* 6 H-class Battleships
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships (designed for both commerce raiding and surface combat)
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (the Royal Navy called them BCs due to their small guns, while everyone else called the BBs; after the war the RN reclassed them as BBs; they were designed for commerce raiding)
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 6 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (These used 8" guns just like every other CA in the world outside of the Panzerschiffe; designed for commerce raiding)
* 24 M-class light cruisers (these would've been scouts for the commerce raiders)
* 36 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers (these would've been screens for the battleships and carriers, their name translates to "scout cruiser")
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

Note that the 2 pre-dreadnoughts and the light cruisers that Germany gets in vanilla aren't counted here. The whole fleet was supposed to be completed by '47. You won't see the Spähkreuzer destroyers in a vanilla game either, and will either need to play a mod that has a destroyer model for them (HPP for sure, maybe others), or a mod that has heavy destroyers, like ICE.

Germany, 1939 Plan Z (A revision of the 1938 build plan), total fleet size
* 6 H-class Battleships
* 3 O-class Battleships/Battlecruisers (depends on how you classify them, and varies by source; these ships had BB-type guns but cruiser-type armor and were to be commerce raiders)
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers
* 2 unknown-class Aircraft Carriers (since design work was never started, the class was never named; every book I've read simply says "2 other carriers")
* 12 P-class Panzerschiffe
* 3 Deutschland-class Panzerschiffe
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers
* 12 M-class light cruisers
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 22 Spähkreuzer-class heavy destroyers
* 158 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
* 249 Submarines

The new ships in this plan were to be finished by 1945, the original planned year Hitler wanted to start the war. As a side note, Rügen Island was supposed to be transformed into Germany's main naval base as part of this plan.

To sum this up, Plan Z would've been centered around 4 core battle fleets consisting of 2 BBs, 1 CV, and 5 Spähkreuzer destroyers each, while the 5 BCs, 20 CAs, 18 CLs, and 249 SSs performed convoy raiding using the CL's as spotters. The remaining destroyers and torpedo boats would've been in a separate branch, performing coastal patrols and convoy escorting.

Germany, what it really built after 1936, new construction only
* 2 H39-class Battleships (construction started, neither launched nor named)
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers (1 was launched, the other was started but not launched; neither ship was finished)
* 1 Europa-class Aircraft Carrier (converted troop transport, never finished)
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (3 were commissioned, 2 launched but not completed; Lützow was sold to the USSR, Seydlitz repurposed)
* 1 Seydlitz-class Aircraft Carrier (converted Admiral Hipper CA, never finished)
* 3 Jade-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ships Jade, Scharnhorst, and Gneisenau, never finished; note that the latter two ships are not the same as the BCs above - the Germans must be unimaginative when it comes to ship names )
* 3 Potsdam-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ships Potsdam, Elbe, and Weser; never finished)
* 1 De Grasse-class Aircraft Carrier (converted French CL, never finished)
* 2 M-class light cruisers (construction started in '38, neither finished)
* 0 1944-class destroyers (8 planned, none finished; these ships were the resulting design from experience from the 1942-class)
* 0 1942-class destroyers (1 planned as an experiment with diesel engines, sunk by Allied bombers during construction)
* 0 1938B-class destroyers (12 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1938A/Ac-class destroyers (3 ordered, all cancelled)
* 0 1936C-class destroyers (6 ordered, all cancelled)
* 3 1936B-class destroyers (5 ordered, 2 cancelled)
* 7 1936A "Mob"-class destroyers
* 8 1936A "Narvik"-class destroyers
* 6 1936-class destroyers
* 12 1934A-class destroyers
* 61 Type XXIII-class submarines (coastal version of the Type XXI, these were by far the fastest subs in the world at the time)
* 118 Type XXI-class submarines (these subs had triple the battery power of the Type VII's and could operate mostly submerged)
* 7 Type XVII-class submarines (17 planned, 10 cancelled; these were experimental ships that used High-test peroxide as its fuel)
* 10 Type XIV-class submarines (24 planned, 14 cancelled; these ships only had AA guns and were used to supply other subs)
* 8 Type X-class submarines (these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones)
* 32 Type IXD-class submarines (36 ordered, 4 cancelled; these mainly acted as transport subs rather than combat ones)
* 87 Type IXC/40-class submarines
* 54 Type IXC-class submarines
* 14 Type IXB-class submarine
* 8 Type IXA-class submarines
* 0 Type VIIC/42-class submarines (164 ordered, all cancelled in favor of the new Type XXI)
* 91+ Type VIIC/41-class submarines (91 commissioned, possibly more under construction; can't find more details)
* 568+ Type VIIC-class submarines (568 commissioned, possibly more under construction; can't find more details)
* 24 Type VIIB-class submarines
* 10 Type VIIA-class submarines
* 16 Type IID-class submarines
* 8 Type IIC-class submarines
* 2 Type IIB-class submarines

In total, that is 1,142 completed submarines between January 1, 1936 and Germany's surrender. Also, the vanilla destroyer classes are totally messed up. The Germans named their destroyer classes by year and design revision, but PI decided to name them after the lead ship of the class, which corresponds to the in-game Z17-class being the 1936-class, with Z17 (Zerstörer 17) as the first destroyer in it.


Spanish State

For all versions of Spain's "Plan Imperial", the battleships would've been Spanish-built copies of Italy's Vittorio Veneto-class BBs, and the destroyers, submarines, and light cruisers would've also been copies of their Italian counterparts. The carriers would've likely been Spanish-built copies of the Graf Zeppelin-class CV. The heavy cruisers would've been improved versions of the Canarias class. The ships listed under the "Plan" tags are new ones to be built, and the numbers don't factor in the ships that survived the civil war. None of the ships in the build plans were actually built, and each build plan is a revision of the previous one rather than additional construction.

Spain, 1936 Fleet
* 2 Espana-class dreadnoughts (I hesitate to call these BBs, because they were very short; when designed, Spain didn't have shipyards large enough to construct full-sized BBs. 3 were built in total, but the original Espana was lost in a storm before the war)
* 2 Canarias-class heavy cruisers (3 planned, 2 completed)
* 3 Cervera-class light cruisers
* 1 Méndez Núñez-class light cruiser
* 1 Reina Victoria Eugenia-class light cruiser
* 14 Churruca-class destroyers
* 3 Alsedo-class destroyers
* 6 B-class submarines
* 6 C-class submarines
* 5 torpedo boats

Spain, ships lost during the Civil War
* The dreadnought España (ex-Alfonso XIII), struck by a mine
* The dreadnought Jaime I, sunk by an internal explosion
* The heavy cruiser Beleares, sunk by the destroyer Lepanto and light cruiser Libertad
* The destroyer Almirante Ferrándiz, sunk by the heavy cruiser Canarias

Spain, '38 Plan
•4 battleships
•4 heavy cruisers
•2 aircraft carriers
•12 light cruisers
•48 destroyers
•48 "torpederos" (small destroyers)
•50 submarines

Spain, '39 Plan (revision of '38 plan)
•4 battleships
•2 heavy cruisers
•12 light cruisers
•54 destroyers
•36 "torpederos" (small destroyers)
•50 submarines
•100 torpedo boats

Spain, '43 Plan (revision of the '39 plan)
•4 battleships
•4 aircraft carriers
•8 light cruisers
•12 "exploradores" (kind of fast cruisers)
•72 destroyers
•36 small destroyers
•50 submarines
•100 torpedo and anti-submarine boats

I got my sources for Spain's Plan Imperial from here: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtop...?f=12&t=131453

More info from TZoli:

The Battleships would be very similar to the Italian Littorio class except No secondary guns and Spanish 120mm AA instead of Italian 90mm ones, every other aspect would be the same.
I made a Line drawing from the Littorio one showing how would this ship looked like:
http://www.deviantart.com/download/2...li-d4cl416.png

Also Spain make design studies of both heavy and light cruisers and thus these ships were born:

Project 124 Light Cruiser Designed in 1936:
Displacement: 10500 tons
110K shp with 69km/h max speed
Armour would be 75mm both Belt and 50mm Deck
Main Armament: 2x3 and 2x2 152mm Guns
3x2 90mm, 8x2 40mm and 2x1 20mm AA guns

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7622/n124acy4.png

Project 131 Heavy Cruiser Designed in 1937:
Displacement: 10000 tons
80K shp with 59km/h max speed
Armour would be 90mm both Belt and Deck
Main Armament: 3x2 203mm Guns
6x2 120mm, 2x2 75mm and 8x2 25mm AA guns

http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1291/n131ms2.png

Project 138 Heavy Cruiser Designed in 1939:
Displacement: 17500 tons
170K shp with 67km/h max speed
Armour would be 150mm Belt and 100mm Deck
Main Armament depending on variant
6x2 90mm, 2x2 75mm, 8x2 25mm and 10x2 20mm AA guns
3 variants made:

Variant A with 4x3 203mm Guns:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2852/ccn138.png

Variant B with 2x3 305mm Guns:
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/1...1386x280mm.png

And Variant C with 3x2 280mm Guns:
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/6803/ccn1386x305.png

Also in 1921 Britain proposed a Battlecruiser design for Spain but it was rejected, no drawings were made but this ship would be a repeat of the HMS Hood, this design called Design 788

[AdityaMookerjee]

The German navy, like the German air force, had serious issues which did not look at the long term requirements of the arm, according to experts on the subject. The German navy was seriously hampered by a resource deficit, accruing to that arm. Raeder wanted Navy aviation, but the immediate need as seen by Hitler, was a rapid expansion of the German Heer(army). It was not good Naval tactics to use the Bismarck and Scharnhorst as surface raiders. Attacking allied merchant shipping should have been left to the submarine arm of the fleet. The Bismarck should have been used to attack enemy warships near the German coast-line. Using the Indirect Approach doctrine of Donitz, the Capital Ships of Germany should have engaged those of Great Britain, one ship at a time, or as an alternative, the Kriegsmarine should have constructed more Battleships, to take on the surtface fleet of Britain, in limited engagements. However, as mentioned, Germany had a resource crunch. Also, defeating Great Britain, would simply send the British Government in Exile to, say, India. Germany was doomed to fail, because she did not have the resources to fight the war.

[TheBromgrev]

Kingdom of the Netherlands

The Dutch saw Japan as their most likely enemy, relying on Germany to adhere to the Versailles treaty or go through Belgium instead of the Netherlands in case of a war in Europe. As such, their naval buildup was planned with the assumption that Japan's carriers and big ships would be distracted by the RN and/or the USN, and the Netherlands would only have to deal with Japan's cruisers and smaller ships. Dutch submarines were to harass Japanese shipping and attempt to ambush patrols, while Dutch cruisers would attempt to prevent any Japanese landings in Indonesia. Old ships were to be retired and replaced, as the Dutch preferred quality over quantity. The planned expansion began in 1935 after the Anglo-German Naval Agreement and was to end in 43.

Ships in service in 1936 that were to remain in service by '43
*1 De Ruyter-class CL
*2 Java-class CLs (finished shortly after WW1)
*8 Admiralen-class DDs (completed in the '20s)
*18 submarines

Ships in service in 1936 that were to be scrapped by '43
*Coastal Battleship Soerabaja (was to be scrapped after the Design 1047 BCs were built; ultimately was sunk by Japan in Indonesia in 1942)
*Coastal Battleship Hertog Hendrik (scheduled for scrap in '39, start of war postponed decommissioning; captured by Germany)
*Coastal Battleship Jacob van Heemskerck (partially disarmed in '39, scuttled by crew when Germany invaded; raised by Germany and used as a floating AA gun; ended service in 1974 as a barracks ship)
*Light Cruiser Gelderland (decommissioned in '39 and partially disarmed; captured by Germany and used as mobile AA battery; sunk by Soviets near Finland in 1944)

As a side note, none of these obsolete ships appear in an un-modded game. You'll need a mod like the HPP or the Realistic OOB Progression Mod if you want to see these ships in-game.

Ships to be completed by '43
*3 Design 1047 BCs (less-armored copies of the Scharnhorst, which was developed with Dutch help; construction never started and the class never named)
*2 De Zeven Provinciën-class CL (only 1 built pre-war, the other was finished later)
*2 Tromp-class CL (intended to lead destroyer flotillas, both finished)
*4 Gerard Callenburgh-class DDs (only 2 built)

Whether the Dutch actually expected 3 BCs, 5 CLs, 12 DDs, and 18 subs to take on the IJN's cruisers I don't know, but it seems highly unlikely, IMO, that their naval plan would've been adequate even with the assumption that the bulk of the IJN would be occupied by the USN and/or RN. The BC's might've been able to tip the balance in their favor, but the Dutch didn't have any experience building such ships, and only considered this option after Germany requested Dutch assistance in designing the Scharnhorst, which gave the Dutch the necessary plans to build the ship on their own. However, construction on the Battlecruisers never started due to Germany delaying and hindering orders for the ships' main guns. With no other reliable trade partner willing to sell the Dutch the required heavy weapons because they themselves were rearming, construction never started.

My source came from here.



Kingdom of Italy

I compiled this list after spending a lot of time on Wikipedia. Because of that, I can't guarantee it's 100% correct, but here's my list of ships the Italian navy planned to have finished before a major war started. These numbers in the second list do not include existing ships in 1936, and are for new construction only. I made a separate list for the 1936 navy.

Italy seriously considered building carriers during the inter-war years. Many tests were done using the seaplane-tender Giuseppe Miraglia concerning using catapults to launch seaplanes, and the Giuseppe Miraglia was in service during the war. It was due to political squabbling that the carrier Aquilia wasn't completed before the war started, since the navy and airforce couldn't come to terms about which branch the Aquilia's planes would answer to.

In May 1935 the Italian navy began procurement activities to expand the RM by 4 battleships (2 were the modernized Conte di Cavour class being reconstructed and the other two were the first of the Littorio class), 3 carriers, 4 cruisers, 54 subs, and 40 smaller ships. The battleships Roma and Impero were added in December 1935.

The Regia Marina in 1936
2 Andrea Doria-class BB
2 Conte di Cavour-class BB
4 or 5 Zara-class CA (the Bolzano can either be considered the last Trento cruiser, or the first Zara cruiser; officially, the Bolzano was the last Trento CA, but was different enough that it could have its own class. The Zara was the next cruiser, and was a slightly modified version of the Bolzano)
2 or 3 Trento-class CA
1 San Giorgio-class CA
2 Duca d'Aosta-class CL
2 Montecuccoli-class CL
2 Cadorna-class CL
4 Di Giussano-class CL
1 Pillau-class CL (captured from Germany after WW1, renamed RM Bari)
1 Magdeburg-class CL (captured from Germany after WW1, renamed RM Taranto)
1 Libia-class CL (ex-Ottoman Drama)
1 Brindisi-class CL (ex-Austrian Helgoland)
1 Venezia-class CL (ex-Austrian Saida)
1 Ancona-class CL (ex-German Graudenz)
4 Maestrale-class DD
4 Freccia-class DD
12 Navigatori-class DD
8 Turbine-class DD
4 Sella-class DD
4 Sauro-class DD
4 Curtatone-class DD
3 Leone-class DD (5 were planned, 2 were canceled)
3 Mirabello-class DD
4 Archimede-class SS
12 Sirena-class SS
7 Argonauta-class SS
3 Mameli-class SS
4 Pisani-class SS
4 Bandierra-class SS
4 Ballila-class SS

Construction after 1936
4 Vittorio Veneto-class Battleships (4 launched, 3 commissioned)
1 Sparviero-class CV (converted ocean liner, never finished)
1 Aquilia-class CV (converted ocean liner, never finished)
2 Costanzo Ciano-class CL (construction never started, designs were done)
2 Etna-class CL (the Thai Navy ordered them in '38, Italy took over ownership; damaged during construction & never finished)
12 Capitani Romani-class CL (12 ordered, 4 commissioned)
2 Duca degli Abruzzi-class CL
21 Commandanti Medaglia d'Oro-class DD (only 9 launched, none finished)
24 Soldati-class DD (19 finished)
12 Cagni-class SS (4 finished)
6 Marconi-class SS (all finished)
11 Marcello-class SS (all finished)

To sum that up, the total of completed construction and existing ships by the time of Italy's surrender in 1943 would've been, using in-game units: 7 BBs, 8 CA, 22 CL, 12 DD, and 6 SS. An additional 2 CV, 1 BB, 12 CL, 3 DD, and 1 SS were planned but never completed.

For the benefit of anyone reading this, the vanilla CL, DD, and SS models seem to be mostly fictional for every class that doesn't appear in the initial OOB, as for the most part they don't adhere to any historical models Italy made or named during WW2. If you look at this list and the vanilla model names, don't be surprised that none of the vanilla models match up with the historical Italian ones presented in this entry. A few are sort-of correct, like the in-game Abruzzi-class (should be named Duca degli Abruzzi-class), but for the most part if you look up what vanilla has for class names for the lighter ships you won't find them anywhere.

[silenced]

@AdityaMookerjee: You're correct. I never quite understood the logic behind using those ships as commerce raiders as opposed to creating a single battlefleet that would retreat to the Baltic when it had to. There must've been a valid reason for using those ships as commerce raiders.

Whole WW-II is full of strange decisions and awkward moves made by Germany. As clever and modern the germans may have acted from time to time, as utterly naive they've been in other situations. They often chose the risky way when it wasn't neccessary and were overly cautious when it wasn't required.

Regarding naval warfare, well, that wasn't something Germany had that much experience. While everything evolved in the naval warfare the german leaders were still stuck in WW-I, where the 'bigger bang' got the success.
I'm pretty sure that building some fast carriers to spot convoys and then retreat and let the subs do their work would have been very successful, but only a genius would have thought of such an option at these times.

[themousemaster]

Whole WW-II is full of strange decisions and awkward moves made by Germany. As clever and modern the germans may have acted from time to time, as utterly naive they've been in other situations. They often chose the risky way when it wasn't neccessary and were overly cautious when it wasn't required.

Regarding naval warfare, well, that wasn't something Germany had that much experience. While everything evolved in the naval warfare the german leaders were still stuck in WW-I, where the 'bigger bang' got the success.
I'm pretty sure that building some fast carriers to spot convoys and then retreat and let the subs do their work would have been very successful, but only a genius would have thought of such an option at these times.

1) The Germans did have a bit of naval experience... Jutland wasn't JUST the UK, after all ;p.
2) Surface raiders were still "effective" at the start of WW2. The main technological jumps that caused them to lose their role were developed JUST before, and during, the war. Most people don't plan a strategy around what *may* happen with technology in the future (though Germany's ability to actually change tactics once said tech WAS out there needed some work)
3) A carrier-spotted Sub-attack wouldn't have ended up working very well. For most of WW2 (and for Germany, pretty much all of it) subs were severely hampered by bad technology in the arms department; FAR more torpedo salvoes missed their marks, or failed to detonate, than actually destroyed ships (and this was WITH all of the research going on in Germany at the time... apparently they couldn't come up with a decent design until they captured a UK torpedo to back-engineer). While the UK may have crapped their pants at all the sub attacks, what (by the numbers) would have likely happened is a few more Royal Navy casualties, at a cost of WAY more Subs lost (battlefleets tended to have better escorts than convoys). Plus, if a number of subs were diverted from convoy raiding to anti-fleet packs, the resource crunch facing the UK would have been much less, allowing them to be much more active in rebuilding their losses. If the major UK losses in the Pacific proved anything, it's that merely losing more ships than expected isn't going to cripple the UK's high seas fleet.

[jju_57]

If applied to the game the orginal plan 1938 had around 30 ships that take 2 years to build. Starting in 1936 and with 1943 the last year to start a build that means you had on average 6 BB/CV/BC ships under construction each two year cycle. So about 40IC on average and then you had to add in all the other ships which by my very quick napkin math was another 36 IC per two year lockup. So 75+ IC just for the navy every year from 1936 till 1945. My only comment is: Are they nuts?

[TheBromgrev]

My only comment is: Are they nuts?

If you're talking about the Nazi government, then the answer is most definitely yes

[TheBromgrev]

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

This list comes from this outside forum post quoting an article that doesn't exist online anymore, but very closely matches Wikipedia's entry for the first group of battleships. I can't claim it's completely accurate as a result.

Before I go into what the Soviet build plans were, I'll list what they had on January 1936 and what they had built or were in the process of building by the time Barbarossa started. I'll also list what they lost during the end of WW1, which could've been part of the Soviet fleet had the civil war not broken out.

One thing I'd like to point out is the inconsistency of Soviet ship classification when compared to the London Naval Treaty definitions, which are the definitions used in the game. Light and heavy cruisers were defined by tonnage and main armament, with heavy cruisers carrying 8" or larger guns and light cruisers carrying 6" or smaller guns. The Soviets threw those definitions out the window and used their own, classifying both CA and CL as simply "cruiser" and listing what would be considered battlecruisers as heavy cruisers. They considered battlecruisers (London definition) to be light battleships. My main source already split up the ships by their proper classification, so the numbers presented in this thread can be directly translated into in-game units. Where there are inconsistencies with the Soviet naming and the London definition, I made a note.


Ships commissioned in 1936
0 Imperator Nikolai I-class Battleships (1 partially completed, construction stopped due to Russia's surrender in WW1 and the subsequent civil war) *
0 Imperatritsa Mariya-class Battleships (3 completed, 1 scuttled to prevent transfer to Germany, 1 scuttled after trying to transfer to Germany but didn't want to transfer to the UK, the last was scrapped by France to pay for docking fees in Tunisia) *
3 Gangut-class Battleships (4 completed, 1 lost due to an internal fire; these ships were the oldest of Russia's dreadnoughts and the only survivors of the Russian Civil War)
0 Borodino-class Battlecruisers (4 planned, construction stopped due to civil war) *
1 Krasnyi Kavkaz-class light cruiser (modified Svetlana, PI lists this as a CA rather than a CL)
3 Svetlana-class light cruisers (8 planned, 3 finished as cruisers, 1 finished as a new class, 2 completed as tankers, 2 canceled)
1 Bogatyr-class light cruiser (this ship shows up in the OOBs as the Pamiat Merkuriya, but it was renamed in 1922 as Komintern)
4 Fidonisy-class destroyers (8 completed, 4 lost after WW1)
2 Izyaslav-class Destroyers (5 planned, 3 finished, 1 given to Estonia then later sold to Peru)
7 Orfey-class Destroyers (23 planned, 16 finished, 9 lost between WW1 and 1936)
6 Leninets-class submarines (24 completed in total)
6 Dekabrist-class submarines
3 American Holland-class submarines (16 planned, 10 completed for Russia, 6 completed for the US, 7 scuttled after WW1)
15 Bars-class submarines (24 completed, 9 lost during and after WW1, the remaining 15 were scrapped by the end of 1936)

* These ships where either never finished or were lost AFTER WW1 due to the Russian Civil War

Ships launched by 1936
5 Leningrad-class destroyers (6 completed in total)
? Srednyaya-class submarines (at least 62 planned, 56 total completed, 6 canceled; just like the Shchuka's, details are hard to find so I don't know when construction started)
3 Pravda-class submarines (4 planned, 3 finished)
? Shchuka-class submarines (200 planned, 88 completed; it's difficult to find detailed info on the individual subs so I can't give a breakdown)
6 Leninets-class submarines

Ships commissioned by Barbarossa
3 Kirov-class Light Cruisers (6 planned, all completed; PI has these as CAs instead of CLs)
8 Soobrazitelny-class destroyers (19 planned, 18 finished)
1 Taskhent-class destroyer (10 planned, 1 completed)
18 Gnevny-class destroyers (36 planned, 30 completed)
1 Leningrad-class destroyer
12 K-class submarines (36 planned, 12 finished, 24 KU subclass canceled)

Ships launched by Barbarossa
4 Sovetsky Soyuz-class BBs (actually, 3 were laid down and 1 cancelled; none finished)
0 Stanlingrad-class BCs (design work started in May 1941 and stopped due to Barbarossa; construction on 3 started in 1951 and were canceled after Stalin died; the Soviets would've classed them as CAs instead of BCs, but all outside navies would've classed them as BCs)
2 Kronshtadt-class BCs (neither finished; the Soviets considered these to be heavy cruisers, but all outside navies would have called them battlecruisers had they been completed)
3 Chapayev-class Light Cruisers (17 planned, 5 completed after the war ended)
1 Kirov-class Light Cruiser
11 Soobrazitelny-class destroyers
2 Tashkent-class destroyers (neither finished)
12 Gnevny-class destroyers

Ships completed by 1945
2 Kirov-class Light Cruiser
11 Ognevoy-class destroyers (24 planned, 11 more finished after the war)



Even though the other naval plans were ambitious and unrealistic, this one puts them to shame. The Soviet shipbuilding industry was virtually destroyed during the Russian Civil War and then neglected almost completely until the Anglo-German Naval Agreement was signed in '35, which prompted Stalin to say "I want a navy too! ". Construction was to be completed by 1947 for both plans (note: only one plan was to be implemented; the finish date happened to be the same for both versions). The Sovetsky Soyuz-class battleships, if completed, would have been as large as Japan's Yamato-class battleships, but have less armor and firepower than the Yamatos. They would've been superior than Germany's Bismarck and H39-class battleships, but inferior to Germany's H41 and H44 class battleships and the American Montana-class. Of what the game calls "super-heavy battleships", the Sovetsky Soyuz would've fit that description.

Roughly 40% of the new fleet would be moved to Vladivostock (4 of the 6 carriers would be based here), with about 30% stationed in the Baltic to fight Germany's fleet, about 20% in the Black Sea to support attacks in Turkey, Romania, and Bulgaria, and the remaining 10% in the Arctic to prevent German landings (2 carriers would be based in Murmansk or Arkhangelsk). Details on how those ratios translate into actual ships is provided after each build plan. Where you see numbers like x-y, those numbers represent the amount of ships based on the ships/flotilla. PI has stated that destroyer units contain 3-5 ships and subs contain 5-10 ships, so I broke up the amounts using that info. All of the old WW1-era ships (levels I or II in the game) were to be scrapped.

1936 Plan
* 6 Carriers
* 15 Battleships & Battlecruisers (4 Sovetsky Soyuz-class BBs started, none finished; construction of 2 Kronshtadt BCs started, none finished, designs for the Stalingrad BC finished by 1941 and construction on 3 started after the war)
* 2 Light Carriers
* 22 Heavy cruisers (1 Tallinn-class acquired from Germany, which was the Admiral Hipper-class CA Lützow)
* 32 Light cruisers (6 Kirov-class finished; 7 Chapayev-class started, 5 finished, 2 scrapped by Germany)
* 162 Destroyers with Destroyer leaders (65 completed); 33-54 in-game units
* 412 Submarines (about 177 completed); 41-82 in-game units

Hypothetical Distribution of the '36 plan, using in-game units:
Far East: 4 CV, 7 BB and/or BC, 8 CA, 12 CL, 12-22 DD, 16-34 SS
Baltic: 1 CVL, 4 BB and/or BC, 6 CA, 10 CL, 10-16 DD, 12-24 SS
Black Sea: 1 CVL, 4 BB and/or BC, 5 CA, 8 CL, 8-11 DD, 8-16 SS
Northern: 2 CV, 3 CA, 2 CL, 3-5 DD, 5-8 SS

1937 Plan (revision of the 1936 plan)
* 6 Carriers
* 24 Battleships & Battlecruisers
* 22 Heavy cruisers
* 20 Light cruisers
* 182 Destroyers with Destroyer leaders; 36-60 in-game units
* 344 Submarines; 34-68 in-game units

Hypothetical Distribution of the '37 plan, using in-game units:
Far East: 4 CV, 10 BB and/or BC, 8 CA, 8 CL, 14-24 DD, 14-28 SS
Baltic: 8 BB and/or BC, 6 CA, 6 CL, 10-18 DD, 10-20 SS
Black Sea: 6 BB and/or BC, 5 CA, 4 CL, 8-12 DD, 6-12 SS
Northern: 2 CV, 3 CA, 2 CL, 4-6 DD, 4-8 SS

There were other revisions, with the 1939 one dropping the battleship count to 14 and raising the battlecruiser count to 16, but I can't find any specifics on the other ships. I also couldn't find any specific information about aircraft carriers. I read that there were 6 carriers and 2 smaller carriers planned, but the two smaller ones were later dropped.

Anyway, hope you guys find this interesting.

EDIT: More info on the battleships that had at least entered the design stage:

Soviet Battleships:
4 Sovietsky Soyuz (Project 23)
4 Improved Sovietsky Soyuz (Project 23bis)
4 Project 24
4 Project 25 Light BB / BC
2 Kronshtadt BC
7 Stalingrad BC
Unknown numbers of Project 21 and 45, ships.

For those interested in trying to build one of these expansion plans in-game, check out this post by Secret Master, who managed to build both plans and still win the war (the USSR was only going to work on one): http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post12852707

[jju_57]

Do all these countries think IC grows on trees?

[krieger11b]

@AdityaMookerjee: You're correct. I never quite understood the logic behind using those ships as commerce raiders as opposed to creating a single battlefleet that would retreat to the Baltic when it had to. There must've been a valid reason for using those ships as commerce raiders.

What else were they going to do with them? They were designed to fight convoys anyways.

A carrier-spotted Sub-attack wouldn't have ended up working very well.

The FW-200 and few other aircraft were doing a great job at what the carrier would do at greatly reduced risk and cost. The main problem being that Georing was a real pain in the ass about lending even a paper airplane to the Luftwaffe. Even when Hitler demanded it. The same reason the German and Italian carriers were doomed as you mentioned, the Air Force demanding control of the aircraft on a carrier which is an insane proposition to begin with. How is an Admiral supposed to plan an attack if at anytime the Air Force can cancel the mission, and how is the Air Force going to use those planes effectively when they do not even command the damn ship they are on?

Also in fame I find it impossible as anyone other than the USA the build both an Army, Air Force, and Navy. Germany has to choose either a grand Army/Air Force, or a moderate sized Navy at the sufferage of the other two. I do it sometimes for fun, then run into real problems in the USSR. The UK AI just does not guard the Channel well enough to stop even half of my invasions, at least when they are real early ones after the BoF where their coast is not guarded well enough to give the AI time to mass a fleet to counter mine.

Other problems are that the game is missing one of the most important Naval Operations, the Blockade. There is no reason I should get through the channel with invasion ships (except there is the fact that aircraft can't seem to find a fleet even if they crashed into one), but with the Royal navy intact I can slip through the vast majorty of supply ships WTF? They could park 10 Battleships, 20 Destroyers, and 15 Light Cruisers off Dover and yet they sink a few each month at best

[misterbean]

this is great stuff! subscribed.
a question: in your soviet write-up you mention "destroyers with destroyer leader". what does that mean? an all DD-pack?

[TheBromgrev]

A destroyer leader is either a small light cruiser (see the Dutch entry) or a heavy destroyer. Basically, a destroyer leader is the biggest ship in a destroyer flotilla, whether it be a cruiser or heavier destroyer. ICE has a G.DD unit that models French DD leaders and the German Spähkrezuers, but the AI is too dumb to use the unit correctly. I highly doubt ICE or Vanilla has unit models (not actual units!) that represent this type of ship. The HPP mod does have models available for these unit types.

For the Soviet entry, I couldn't find any info that said how many DD leaders per DD there would be, so I included the total number instead. The Dutch planned to have 1 DD leader per 4 DD, but I can't say that the other navies planned to use such ratios.

That said, there aren't many nations in the world that could build warships, so all that's left for me to cover are: the US, the UK, France, Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Yugoslavia, Finland, Poland, and China. In the case of the last 6, their naval buildups were much more modest, focusing on destroyers and the occasional light cruiser.

As a side note, Turkey, Chile, Argentina, and Brazil all start with capital ships in the '36 scenario. I'd like to point out that while those naval OOBs are correct, *none* of those nations were capable of building their starting navies, and *all* of the ships they start with in '36 were purchased from Western navies. Not a single ship was built domestically, not even destroyers. In-game terms, that means only the following nations should be able to build ships other than transports: US, UK, France, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Finland, Japan, China, and the USSR. No other nation in the game should be able to build their own warships at the start.

[misterbean]

I can't wait to see the size of the US entry; must be one hell of a mega-post

[Traks]

Kinda off-topic, but in regards to aircraft, only the following nations should be able to build planes at all: US, France, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Poland (transports only),

Romania too afaik. Honestly I would add "Plane production" tech as tech 0, that you need to research before plane techs and set most countries to it.
With difficulty 5, to show that you need some dedication to go air.

[Saltspring]

That another branch of the military controls the aircraft on a carrier than the navy does not make carrying out missions impossible, the U.S. Marines often had air groups on U.S. Navy carriers and they are most certainly not the same branch of the military if you ask either of them.

Even on a carrier without divided branches you will not have the captain of the carrier the same man as who commands the air groups commanding a ship is nothing like commanding an air group.

The main issue that crops up is that the different branches of the military's higher command bicker about who is going to control what and since no consensus is reached no funds are allocated and so no planes are built.

[krieger11b]

Kinda off-topic, but in regards to aircraft, only the following nations should be able to build planes at all: US, France, UK, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Sweden, Poland (transports only), USSR, Japan. Neither the correct naval or aircraft starting techs are implemented in vanilla or any mod. I'm currently working on the HPP's starting techs, but there are a *lot* of small nations like Cuba that can build interceptors that I need to fix.

Poland built many domestic fighter/bomber aircraft and even exported many of them! As mentioned already Romania built aircraft, many of them performed well in Barbarossa before more advanced Soviet Fighters started showing up in 1942/43. Others builts aircraft under license, Yugoslavia built a decent amount of German bombers before they were invaded.

[chervois]

Neither the correct naval or aircraft starting techs are implemented in vanilla or any mod. I'm currently working on the HPP's starting techs, but there are a *lot* of small nations like Cuba that can build interceptors that I need to fix.

FYI, I'm fairly certain that both Costa Rica and Saudi Arabia can build Navs and Iraq can build Interceptors. I say "fairly certain" because I play a personal mod where I've changed many countries starting techs and I've a bad habit of not recording any changes I make.

[TheBromgrev]

FYI, I'm fairly certain that both Costa Rica and Saudi Arabia can build Navs and Iraq can build Interceptors. I say "fairly certain" because I play a personal mod where I've changed many countries starting techs and I've a bad habit of not recording any changes I make.

Which is exactly what I'm working on fixing right now. Those nations can't build their own planes today, and definitely couldn't build any back then.

[Alex_brunius]

Germany, what it really built
* 2 Bismarck-class Battleships
* 2 Scharnhorst-class Battleships/Battlecruisers
* 2 Deuschland-class pre-Dreadnought Battleships
* 2 Graf Zeppelin-class Aircraft Carriers (1 was launched, the other was started but not launched; neither ship was finished)
* 1 Europa-class Aircraft Carrier (converted troop transport, never finished)
* 3 Deutschland-class Pocket Battleships
* 5 Admiral Hipper-class Heavy Cruisers (3 were commissioned, 2 launched but not completed; Lützow was sold to the USSR, Seydlitz repurposed)
* 1 Seydlitz-class Aircraft Carrier (converted CA, never finished)
* 1 Jade-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ship, never finished)
* 1 Potsdam-class Aircraft Carrier (converted merchant ship, never finished)
* 1 De Grasse-class Aircraft Carrier (converted French CL, never finished)
* 3 K-class light cruisers
* 1 Emden-class light cruiser
* 1 Leipzig-class light cruiser
* 1 Nürnberg-class light cruiser
* 40 Destroyers and Torpedo Boats
*~1,200 Submarines

I think you forgot 1 H39 class Battleship since your including ships not finished. According to what I read about 5000 tons of steel was invested in Battleship H (with 12000more ton already ordered) when construction was halted after the breakout off hostilities.