African Kingdoms

[Hibernian]

Ok, here's an initial outline of what some of the new African Kingdoms that may be added will look like. As discussed, I'm only working on inland countries so far, so here are five. The names of the countries and code tags are only provisional and are subject to change, so I'd appreciate any input and debate on that front. I was going to display a category for government type, but it's unneeded as they will all have the same, Absolute Monarchy. (Also as usual, an asterisk (*) marks the country's capital).

Inland Countries:


* Bamana Empire

This country is in EU3, where it's called Segu. I'm not sure what to call it, we could go with Bamana or Bambara (which is the name of its dominate ethnicity), or we could go with Segu (which is the capital of the empire, today's Ségou). They were the successors of the various Sahelian kingdoms which rose and fell in various forms for a thousand years. They were Animist and were in conflict with the neighbouring Muslim state the Massina Empire, until both were eventual conquered by the Toucouleur Empire, when the Bambara were forced to convert to Islam in 1861.

Possible Names: Bamana, Bambara, Segu
Code Tag: SEG

Primary Culture: Bambara
Accepted Culture: African Minor

State Religion: Animist

Owned Provinces: 9

1794 – Bamako
1795 – Kayes
1796 – Nioro
1797 – Kita
1798 – Bougouni
1800 – Segu *
1801 – Mourdiah
1802 – Jenne
1803 – Timbuktu

Extra Core provinces: 4

1791 – Bakel
1799 – Sikasso
1804 – Bandiagara
1906 – Orodaro

I've given them control over the approximate areas they controlled (though this is hard since I don't have very good information and few maps), and given them cores on all areas where the Bambara people live (at the start of the game).


* Massina Empire

In terms of naming, this one is a lot easier, it's simply Massina. The Massina Empire was created as part of the general uprisings of the Muslim Fula peoples of the Sahel, known as the Fulani Jihads (which also created the Sokoto Caliphate). This state was created in 1818 when the Fula Muslims fought against the Pagan Bambara Empire of Segu, capturing large parts of it. It (along with Segu) was eventually conquered by the even stronger Fulani Jihad state of the Toucouleur Empire, in 1862.

Name: Massina
Code Tag: MAS

Primary Culture: Fulbe
Accepted Culture: African Minor

State Religion: Sunni

Owned Provinces: 3

1804 – Bandiagara *
1799 – Sikasso
1805 – Gao

Extra Core provinces: 15

1794 – Bamako
1795 – Kayes
1796 – Nioro
1797 – Kita
1798 – Bougouni
1800 – Segu
1801 – Mourdiah
1802 – Jenne
1803 – Timbuktu
1808 – Niamey
1809 – Say
1880 – Timbo
1881 – Dinguiraye
1882 – Kankan
1904 - Fada Ngourma

I've given them their approximate 1836 starting positions (though again, the information I can find on this is limited), as well as giving them cores on all areas with Fulbe POPs at game start (except inside Sokoto). The cores of Massina and Segu overlap, so these two will probably be at war at some point.


* Bornu Empire

This country exists in EU3 as Kanem-Bornu (it's tag is KBO). The Bornu Empire was a continuation of the old Kanem Empire, cantered around Lake Chad. They were Muslim and fought against the various neighbouring tribes as well as Sokoto, during this time period.

Possible Names: Bornu, Kanem-Bornu
Code Tag: KBO

Primary Culture: Kanuri
Accepted Culture: African Minor

State Religion: Sunni

Owned Provinces: 7

1816 – Kufe
1818 – Massenya
1824 – Mao
1951 – Kuka *
1952 – Nguru
1953 – Dikoa
1964 – Maroua

I've given them all the provinces around Lake Chad which have Kanuri POPs, no extra cores. I suppose they could possibly be given all the cores of the old Kanem Empire, but this wouldn't work really, because those areas don't have Kanuri culture in the game.


* Kingdom of Luba

Luba was an Animist Kingdom in central Africa (parts of DR Congo, Angola and Zambia). They seem to have been fairly isolated from the outside world for most of their history, except for extensive contact with the neighbouring Kingdom of Lunda.

Name: Luba
Code Tag: LBA

Primary Culture: Luba
Accepted Culture: African Minor

State Religion: Animist

Owned Provinces: 3

1986 – Lusambo
1989 – Munza
1990 – Nyangwe

Extra Core provinces: 1

1988 – Mussumba

These are the areas where the Luba POPs live, so I've given it to them. Note though, that the current territory of both Luba and Lunda are highly uncertain and I'm basing it mostly off the one map on Wikipedia, so this may change.


* Kingdom of Lunda

Lunda is basically in the same situation as Luba, a fairly isolated Animist Kingdom in the interior of Central Africa, which existed for several hundred years.

Name: Lunda
Code Tag: LUN

Primary Culture: Lunda
Accepted Culture: African Minor

State Religion: Animist

Owned Provinces: 4

1984 – Kananga
1985 – Kumbana
1988 – Mussumba
2010 – Saurimo *

Extra Core provinces: 12

1985 – Kumbana
1987 – Bunkeya
2007 – Mavinga
2011 – Kubanda
2012 – Lusaka
2013 – Mongu
2014 – Kasempa
2015 – Monzo
2016 – Kazembe
2018 – Chipata
2067 – Lilongwe
2081 – Linyati

Again, the exact territories of Lunda are quite uncertain, given the amount of information I have, so this could change. I've also given them cores on all provinces that have Lunda POPs in them at the start of the game (which is a very large area, since they're a widespread people).


I'm currently reworking Shoa and doing some minor changes to Sokoto. I'll begin actually creating the new nations soon, but I'd like some feedback on what I have so far.

[Rylock]

I thought there was a problem with Luba or Lunda with regards to their provinces switching over to rubber? Or is that something else?

As for the Bamana, if they were conquered by the Toucouleur Empire wouldn't that be a better one to add?

And is Ashanti going to be on this list? Of the African kingdoms, I'd say that's the most pertinent. We should also consider adding in a country for the Sudan and Eritrea (even if they don't exist off the bat). Personally I'd also be curious what to do about the Libyan area -- currently none of the Libyan coast have Tripolitanian cores (and I'm not even sure they should, I'm not well versed on the history-- but it seems like it should have *something*).

One other thing: Did you want me to make any flags for these? Or are you okay doing that yourself?

[Hibernian]

I thought there was a problem with Luba or Lunda with regards to their provinces switching over to rubber? Or is that something else?

Well, Naselus pointed out that it would be a problem for Kongo and Loango, but I've no idea whether the same is true for Luba and Lunda (these names do get confusing...), as I don't know in any detail when provinces change over to different goods.

As for the Bamana, if they were conquered by the Toucouleur Empire wouldn't that be a better one to add?

But they didn't exist in 1836. The Toucouleur Empire only came into being in 1848, and only really conquered the others after 1862. I'm not sure if there's any way to represent this though. They have the same ethnicity and religion as Massina (Sunni Fulbe), so creating cores for them wouldn't really work, would it? I think basically Massina already represents the Faluni Jihad at the start of the game, the only other way to do it would be to make a series of events that create the Toucouleur in 1848, but then that might be too deterministic.

And is Ashanti going to be on this list? Of the African kingdoms, I'd say that's the most pertinent.

Well I am certainly in favour of adding in Ashanti, but due to the discussion we had on the suggestions thread, I'm only doing inland countries first. If Naselus can do that Casus belli system he was talking about, then I can add in the coastal nations.

We should also consider adding in a country for the Sudan and Eritrea (even if they don't exist off the bat). Personally I'd also be curious what to do about the Libyan area -- currently none of the Libyan coast have Tripolitanian cores (and I'm not even sure they should, I'm not well versed on the history-- but it seems like it should have *something*).

Yeah, I agree about Sudan and maybe Eritrea (although they might need to be a post-colonial state) and I certainly agree that Tripoli should get cores on all of modern day Libya (and maybe even control of the Eastern desert region as well, see Ottoman Tripolitania).

[Rylock]

But they didn't exist in 1836. The Toucouleur Empire only came into being in 1848, and only really conquered the others after 1862. I'm not sure if there's any way to represent this though. They have the same ethnicity and religion as Massina (Sunni Fulbe), so creating cores for them wouldn't really work, would it? I think basically Massina already represents the Faluni Jihad at the start of the game, the only other way to do it would be to make a series of events that create the Toucouleur in 1848, but then that might be too deterministic.

I suppose there's no need to do it. Just seems strange to include a country that will very likely survive until the colonial period in almost every game, when it was gone 20 or 30 years prior in real life.

Well I am certainly in favour of adding in Ashanti, but due to the discussion we had on the suggestions thread, I'm only doing inland countries first. If Naselus can do that Casus belli system he was talking about, then I can add in the coastal nations.

Is Ashanti coastal? I thought it was north of the little Dutch, English and French colonies, around where Burkina Faso is now? I'm probably mistaken.

Yeah, I agree about Sudan and maybe Eritrea (although they might need to be a post-colonial state) and I certainly agree that Tripoli should get cores on all of modern day Libya (and maybe even control of the Eastern desert region as well, see Ottoman Tripolitania).

I'm not sure when Tripoli becomes Libya, then. I suppose that's a post-colonial state. But you're right, the cores should be extended (everywhere but the far southeast desert region, it looks like). As for Eritrea, my understanding is it's a really old name for the region-- and probably never became independent simply because foreign powers kept it under control. But I could certainly be wrong.

[Sir Garnet]

Yeah, I agree about Sudan and maybe Eritrea (although they might need to be a post-colonial state) and I certainly agree that Tripoli should get cores on all of modern day Libya (and maybe even control of the Eastern desert region as well, see Ottoman Tripolitania).

As previously mentioned, in the Egyptian Sudan the Mahdi's revolt fielded vast hordes of fanatical warriors in the 1880s and maintained control until crushed by the Brits in 1898. I don't see why a Mahdi could not have appeared earlier, so cores would work.

Agreed about Tripoli.

[Hibernian]

I suppose there's no need to do it. Just seems strange to include a country that will very likely survive until the colonial period in almost every game, when it was gone 20 or 30 years prior in real life.

Sure, but it could have survived, there's no overriding reason why it should not survive. If there were a way to simulate the way that the Toucouleur Empire quickly came into existence and conquered everybody else in the region, then that would be great, but I don't know how to do that.

Is Ashanti coastal? I thought it was north of the little Dutch, English and French colonies, around where Burkina Faso is now? I'm probably mistaken.

Well yeah, it depends on what provinces we give them. I can't find any good maps of Ashanti for the period, some maps depict them as very small and inland of the European colonies, other maps show them extending into neighbouring countries and having a coastline. Clearly, the centre of their state was in modern day Ghana and some maps show them confined to only about half of Ghana. Whilst other maps show them in control on all of Ghana, as well as Togo and about half of Ivory Coast. So it's a bit complicated, the initial provinces I gave them on my first map included a coastal province.

I'm not sure when Tripoli becomes Libya, then. I suppose that's a post-colonial state. But you're right, the cores should be extended (everywhere but the far southeast desert region, it looks like). As for Eritrea, my understanding is it's a really old name for the region-- and probably never became independent simply because foreign powers kept it under control. But I could certainly be wrong.

I think for all intents and purposes Tripoli is Libya. There's no need to create a separate state, just give them all the cores in Libya. Maybe they could change their name to "Libya" if they become a republic?

As previously mentioned, in the Egyptian Sudan the Mahdi's revolt fielded vast hordes of fanatical warriors in the 1880s and maintained control until crushed by the Brits in 1898. I don't see why a Mahdi could not have appeared earlier, so cores would work.

I agree, but what cores should they have? What should they be called ("Sudan", "Mahdist State")? What primary and secondary cultures, etc? Would they just represent the Mahdist uprising, or are they also post-colonial Sudan?

[Naselus]

Libya was invented by Mussolini, prior to which the West and East halves of the country were never united or considered linked. They were even separate provinces as far back as the Roman Empire. Triploi should definitively NOT get cores on the rest of Libya; in fact, Libya probably should not exist in the game at all - there was no chance of 'Libyan nationalism' as there was no nation to cause it, and the country only existed as an independent entity after WW2.

[Gaius Marius I]

For this time period, probably best to have eastern Libya fall under a Cyrenaica revolter TAG. The split between Tripolitania and Cyrenaica has been apparent even in 2011 and the civil war there.

[Hibernian]

Well ok, but that may mean we need to create another state in Eastern Libya.

It would just seem easier to give the cores to Tripoli.

Actually just looking at how Libya was done in the old VIP mod, they had two different countries, one called Fezzan, which is basically exactly the same as Tripoli in VIC2 (i.e. is at war with the Ottomans). Then they also have a state called Sanoussiyya, which is a vassal of the Ottomans and controls Cyrenaica (including the desert area). Maybe we could do something like that?

[Hibernian]

I'm starting to create the new countries now, so can we agree on their names and tags?

What do we call the Bamana Empire? Bamana (BAM), Bambara (BAM) or Segu (SEG)?

Personally I like Segu, because that's it's name in EU3 and people may be familiar with that.

I'm assuming everyone agrees on Massina (MAS) for the Massina Empire?

Should the Bornu Empire be Bornu (BOR)? or Kanem-Bornu (KBO)? which is what it's called in EU3.

Luba (LBA) and Lunda (LUN) I assume are easy.


Also, anybody know what Adjectives would be good for the new countries?

Bamana Adjective = Bamana? Bamanan?

Bambara Adjective = Bambara? Bambaran?

Segu Adjective = Segu? Seguan?

Massina Adjective = Massina? Massinan? Massinese?

Bornu Adjective = Bornu? Bornuan?

Luba Adjective = Luba? Luban?

Lunda Adjective = Lunda? Lundan?

[Aeon221]

Sure, but it could have survived, there's no overriding reason why it should not survive. If there were a way to simulate the way that the Toucouleur Empire quickly came into existence and conquered everybody else in the region, then that would be great, but I don't know how to do that.

Cultural Union along NGF lines requiring a few outlying provinces, with cores on the full extent of the dominion available after formation with a decision (Toucouleuran Irredentism?).

Might not be a perfect representation of how things played out in reality, but would capture some of the dynamism of the region and give players a goal if playing there; important if you want people to actually USE these nations, and not simply treat them as a speed bump.

In favor of the addition of more pre-colonial states. It makes Africa more interesting, and better captures the feel of the colonial dynamic, where existing states were first incorporated into spheres diplomatically, and then annexed over time as direct rule became ever more appealing. Might want to have post N&I events that grant acquire state CBs and nuke sphere for major nations holding sphere over them, to get things moving.

[Rylock]

I agree, but what cores should they have? What should they be called ("Sudan", "Mahdist State")? What primary and secondary cultures, etc? Would they just represent the Mahdist uprising, or are they also post-colonial Sudan?

I think simply calling it Sudan would be fine. That's the historical name for the region, and there's already a sudanese culture in the game.

[Rylock]

I'm starting to create the new countries now, so can we agree on their names and tags?

What do we call the Bamana Empire? Bamana (BAM), Bambara (BAM) or Segu (SEG)?

Personally I like Segu, because that's it's name in EU3 and people may be familiar with that.

I would say Segu. That way people (like me) can't complain that the Bamana Empire disappeared early on, since the technical "name" of the empire could have changed to whatever-- it still represents the same people and empire in the region.

As for doing some kind of event that creates the Toucouleur, that's certainly possible. That's possibly getting a bit out of scope, though-- for the moment, I'd say just getting the countries in might be enough.

I'm assuming everyone agrees on Massina (MAS) for the Massina Empire?

Sounds good.

Should the Bornu Empire be Bornu (BOR)? or Kanem-Bornu (KBO)? which is what it's called in EU3.

I like the sound of Kanem-Bornu. Not sure what the adjective would be. Bornuan?

Also, anybody know what Adjectives would be good for the new countries?

Bamana Adjective = Bamana? Bamanan?

Bambara Adjective = Bambara? Bambaran?

Segu Adjective = Segu? Seguan?

What's the culture, again? Bambara? I'd say use that (the adjective is simply "Bambara").

Massina Adjective = Massina? Massinan? Massinese?

Again, I'd say use the culture. Not sure what "Fulbe" would be... in English it's "Fulani", I think. Otherwise I'd say "Massina" itself would work as an adjective.

Bornu Adjective = Bornu? Bornuan?

If it's Kanem-Bornu, I found "Kanuri-Bornu" as an adjective.

Luba Adjective = Luba? Luban?

"Luba" is evidently the adjective, as well.

Lunda Adjective = Lunda? Lundan?

Can't find this one, but from the previous I'd say "Lunda" itself is likely correct.

[Naselus]

We may also be able to integrate a CB that gives a 'free' cassus belli to a sphere owner of uncivs. This may be worth putting in regardless of Africa; make it a decision a la the current GTFO ones, or even simply incorporating it into GTFO.

[Rylock]

Actually just looking at how Libya was done in the old VIP mod, they had two different countries, one called Fezzan, which is basically exactly the same as Tripoli in VIC2 (i.e. is at war with the Ottomans). Then they also have a state called Sanoussiyya, which is a vassal of the Ottomans and controls Cyrenaica (including the desert area). Maybe we could do something like that?

Well, it's weird only because the "Tripoli" they use in Vic2 was actually the area further north (where Tripoli is, duh). The area which is now "Tripoli" should probably be Fezzan. I like "Cyrenaica" as the name for the eastern portion-- never heard of Sanoussiyya, but even the Wiki page you link to simply mentions the Senussi as an order (and that their banner was used as the flag of Cyrenaica-- but nothing named Sanoussiyya).

As for making Cyrenaica a vassal, I don't know. The Ottomans having vassals on both sides of their African territory makes it virtually untouchable by the AI. I'd be all for creating a Cyrenaica country and adding cores there, however.

[Hibernian]

Cultural Union along NGF lines requiring a few outlying provinces, with cores on the full extent of the dominion available after formation with a decision (Toucouleuran Irredentism?).

Might not be a perfect representation of how things played out in reality, but would capture some of the dynamism of the region and give players a goal if playing there; important if you want people to actually USE these nations, and not simply treat them as a speed bump.

Well I'm sure there's a way to do it, I'm just not an expert on that sort of thing. Perhaps some event/decision could be created which gave one of the Fulani state cores on all the Fulani areas and try to conquer all of west Africa in a great Jihad (as many of the Fulani Jihads attempted).

I think simply calling it Sudan would be fine. That's the historical name for the region, and there's already a sudanese culture in the game.

Ok, I'm start researching it soon.


As for the names and tags, I think I'll go for Segu and Kanem-Bornu then.

We may also be able to integrate a CB that gives a 'free' cassus belli to a sphere owner of uncivs. This may be worth putting in regardless of Africa; make it a decision a la the current GTFO ones, or even simply incorporating it into GTFO.

Yeah, that would be great, there should be certain conditions like, say you can only annex an unciv with less than two or three states and you have to have them in your sphere for about 35 years (so the first annexation wouldn't happen until 1871). You could make is a dynamic event, so that you are able to demand annexation from the unciv, but their AI has about a 50/50 chance of accepting it. If they refuse, then the sphere is broken and you get a CB on them (with minimal infamy).

[Hibernian]

Well, it's weird only because the "Tripoli" they use in Vic2 was actually the area further north (where Tripoli is, duh). The area which is now "Tripoli" should probably be Fezzan.

Well I'm no expert on this, so I may be wrong, but I think what happened was that the city of Tripoli and the surrounding areas rebelled against the Ottomans, but the Turks already retook the city of Tripoli before the start of the game and in 1836 they're just mopping up the resistance in the desert.

I like "Cyrenaica" as the name for the eastern portion-- never heard of Sanoussiyya, but even the Wiki page you link to simply mentions the Senussi as an order (and that their banner was used as the flag of Cyrenaica-- but nothing named Sanoussiyya).

I never heard of Sanoussiyya either and I can't find anything about it online, except the reference to the Senussi. I'm not sure I like the name Cyrenaica though, it's an ancient Greek name, was it actually used by the locals?

Hey, let’s just call the west the "Great Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya", and the east the "National Transitional Council".

[Hibernian]

Anyway, I've been working on adding the countries today and have got some progress to report.

I've created Massina and Luba and integrated them into the game. I used the flags from the old VIP mod, because finding flags for these countries was impossible. I redrew them completely in a higher resolution, because the old VIC1 flag are terribly pixelated. I don't know what the rules are for using someone else’s flags for a mod though, should I (or we) ask the people who made VIP? (OHGamer, etc.) Because those flags are invaluable.

Keep in mind that I have not changed the POP files at all, which is something that will need to be done. So these countries will have inherent problems as they are (i.e. they don't have enough soldier POPs, etc).

Attachment 34067

Test it out and see if everything's working properly.

[Rylock]

Well I'm no expert on this, so I may be wrong, but I think what happened was that the city of Tripoli and the surrounding areas rebelled against the Ottomans, but the Turks already retook the city of Tripoli before the start of the game and in 1836 they're just mopping up the resistance in the desert.

And evidently instantly converted Tripoli itself into a state rather than a colony.

I'm not really suggesting we create a separate Fezzan state or anything. I'm sure using Tripoli for the western area would be fine. At the very least the core should be on the city itself.

I never heard of Sanoussiyya either and I can't find anything about it online, except the reference to the Senussi. I'm not sure I like the name Cyrenaica though, it's an ancient Greek name, was it actually used by the locals?

Well, as I understand it the area was independent for a bit after WW2 and had that name. The only other name I see for it is "Barqa" or "Barka", which is the Arabic version. Personally I'd be careful about getting too caught up with the technical names for things. I've seen a couple of mods where they insist on using the full, official name for a country (which can never appear on the map as it's too long) when really the name that would appear on a map is not the local name (we don't use 'Italia' or 'Deutschland', for example) or the official name but the name in general use by the international community (the one that would go on most maps, in whatever language the map is being made for).

That's just a personal pet peeve, though.

[Naselus]

The arab term for Cyrenaica wiould be Barqa. I'd be happy enough to leave it as 'Cyrenaica' tho; plenty of countries in V2 used names based on their titles from Antiquity. Britain, just for example...