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Thread: Succession in Kievan Rus'?

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    Succession in Kievan Rus'?

    i guess the title is actually two CK2 questions.

    1) Will there be a rota system?

    Or at least something that sees Kiev pass between the various branches of the Ryurikovich dynasty?

    (as a default, barring countermeasures by the AI, player, complete randomness, etc.)

    2) Will there be a Kievan Rus'?

    Or just umpteen unrelated principalities that never get around to waging internecine succession wars?


    And possibly a third.

    3) Have you considered how foreign interventions might be used as a means to back rival claimants?

    External allies were often used drawn in.

    e.g. Poland might back the prince of Vladimir-Volynsky, Varangians via Novgorod, Pechenegs the prince from Pereyaslavl’, Cumans the Chernigov candidate, Bulgars the one from Suzdal’, etc cetera.

    i'm sure it would apply to other situations. Like the French backing a pretender to the English throne from across the channel. Or the Kingdom of Naples restoring the Papacy in Rome after pesky republicans take over there. Something like an "expeditionary force" that doesn't draw two neighbours into a realm-wide war because one dynasty backs another. (To return to the first example, say... the King of Poland putting his daughter's husband back in charge of Kiev after the son-in-law being booted out by the Prince of Polotsk.)

    In CK1 it seems the relations between the Rus' principalities either collapsed into a short-lived chequerboard or one prince gobbled everything up and became king. Whereas i'm wondering if it might be possible to have the default settings lean more towards a coherent, unified Rus'.... that also happens to have a long string of violently pointless disagreements over who is next in line. At least until the Mongols show up and vassalize them for failing to switch to Imperial Prerogative and Agnatic Primogeniture.

  2. #2
    First Lieutenant Einh's Avatar
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    I think the Devs have said that there wont be a Rota system but I might be wrong.

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    Well, they laid out a few systems in one of the development updates. But that was early, its still alpha, and the rota per se wasn't one of them. They did say they wouldn't rule out adding more, iirc.

    One inheritance law they spelled out, Seniority, seems like it might get closer than CK1. But i figured better to ask now than after the release.

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    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Half the rota system is that when everybody gets promoted everybody loses their old land (the other half is threy get new land). That's just not possible under the current game engine without dying, and there's no way to bring the dead former Prince of Peryslavyl back to be the new Prince of Kiev.

    That's not an impossible problem to fix but it'll require a lot of programming from somebody whose really good. And programming resources for regional inheritance laws are scarce -- all Ireland and Scotland really need for Tanistry is for the election to be held while the King's alive, candidates restricted to descendants of former Kings, but that's not gonna be implemented.

    Your best bet is that CK2 will sell like hotcakes, the Moslem expansion will make Johan rich, and they'll decide to do a new Northeastern European expansion focusing on pagans and the intricacies of the Rurikids.

    OTOH I'm pretty sure the Irish are never getting Tanistry. :-(

    Nick

  5. #5
    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Half the rota system is that when everybody gets promoted everybody loses their old land (the other half is threy get new land). That's just not possible under the current game engine without dying, and there's no way to bring the dead former Prince of Peryslavyl back to be the new Prince of Kiev.
    But we can Revoke Title, so couldn't it just revoke the needed titles as a part of the system and Grant the next level on the ladder? Hm.

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    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    But we can Revoke Title, so couldn't it just revoke the needed titles as a part of the system and Grant the next level on the ladder? Hm.
    That is not a very robust system. Revoking is a diplomatic option you can only use on your direct vassals. This means they can say no, and since there's an across-the-board loyalty hit for trying to revoke a title they're highly unlikely to let you revoke more then one or two.

    If there're EU2-style AI files somewhere you could hard-code the AIs involved to all pledge to Kiev the day the old Grand Prince dies, make the new Grand Prince revoke all the titles, and force everyone else to say yes. This still leaves the problem of regranting the titles to the appropriate Rurikid Princelings, but that's not insurmountable. What could be insurmountable is figuring what to do with new territory -- where does Wallachia fit into the rota system?

    Basically the things that make the rota system so fascinating make it virtually impossible to include in CK2 without major programming.

    Nick

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    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Read what I wrote. I didn't say "Do it manually". You said "it's not possible in the current engine" and I said "Why not make a succession law where it automatically revokes the needed titles and grants them to the next step in the ladder", as in "not really beyond the engine, is it?".

    I don't know much beyond what I'm told about the Rota system, though, so dunno how they'd handle non-local territory.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Read what I wrote. I didn't say "Do it manually". You said "it's not possible in the current engine" and I said "Why not make a succession law where it automatically revokes the needed titles and grants them to the next step in the ladder", as in "not really beyond the engine, is it?".
    Dude, you seem to have missed the bit of my post that proved your idea is not possible under the current engine. To quote myself:
    "Revoking is a diplomatic option"
    There is no way to tie a diplomatic action to a succesion law under the current engine. There is definitly no way to tie a diplomatic option for each County and Prince-title in all of Kievan Rus to a succesion law.

    What you're talking about could only work if the engine was altered to allow for succesion laws to trigger those options. That may be trivial to do. It may not be. I really don't know, and neither do you.

    Regardless even if you do add that capability to the CK2 engine you've got all the problems I mentioned: it only works for direct vassals of Kiev, there's a long lead-time, and then it's incredibly rigid.

    The devs would probably be better off creating entirely new code for a rotational countries.

    Nick

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    Ceteris Paribus Nuril's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Dude, you seem to have missed the bit of my post that proved your idea is not possible under the current engine. To quote myself:
    "Revoking is a diplomatic option"
    There is no way to tie a diplomatic action to a succesion law under the current engine. There is definitly no way to tie a diplomatic option for each County and Prince-title in all of Kievan Rus to a succesion law.
    No, you're missing my point. Again, I'm not talking about "Diplomacy". I'm not talking about what Modders might be able to do. I'm talking about capabilities of the engine. It can obviously reassign titles. IT. Not YOU. As in: This special succession law would be the automatic revokation and institution of your heirs one step up on the ladder. So if you're the "King of Kiev" (just an example, go with it), your heir is "Duke of Kiev" and your younger son is "Count of Kiev" then the heir would be bumped to King and the younger one to Duke. That's pretty much the gist of it, yes? This could all be possible using the capabilities of Grant/Revoke in the engine. It'd just happen at the same time and without loyalty hits (it is as it's supposed to go, after all).

    (EDIT: Could also be brother taking the throne and older son taking the Dukedom, but w/e)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    What you're talking about could only work if the engine was altered to allow for succesion laws to trigger those options. That may be trivial to do. It may not be. I really don't know, and neither do you.
    If you can't know that, then don't claim you've "proven me wrong". Also.. "alter the engine"? Alter it from what? Oh well. I'd be interested in how moddable the new Succession laws will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    Regardless even if you do add that capability to the CK2 engine you've got all the problems I mentioned: it only works for direct vassals of Kiev, there's a long lead-time, and then it's incredibly rigid.
    I don't know what you're talking about with any of those three 'problems'. You mean it wouldn't work if you control a Duke that controls a Count and you want to reassign the Count? Again -> not DIPLOMACY, if he's a part of your realm, it's fair game. Lead-time? Rigid? Wut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    The devs would probably be better off creating entirely new code for a rotational countries.
    Well, that's the case for everything ("It'd be best to have unique code for it"), but that's a luxury.

  10. #10
    Evil Pinko Commie Draztikus's Avatar
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    Ignore Nick B II, he seems to think CK is being made by jamming CK1's engine into EU3's map.

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    First Lieutenant vwclaymore's Avatar
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    In theory, I think it would be relatively simple to implement, Nuril. I could see the potential for some problems with AI usage or if one of the heirs had declared independence, etc., though the way to find out if it creates any bugs would be to try it out. I'm all for trying to get more historical with inheritance laws. (I still want tanistry for gaelic ireland and scotland.)

  12. #12
    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    No, you're missing my point. Again, I'm not talking about "Diplomacy". I'm not talking about what Modders might be able to do. I'm talking about capabilities of the engine. It can obviously reassign titles. IT. Not YOU. As in: This special succession law would be the automatic revokation and institution of your heirs one step up on the ladder. So if you're the "King of Kiev" (just an example, go with it), your heir is "Duke of Kiev" and your younger son is "Count of Kiev" then the heir would be bumped to King and the younger one to Duke. That's pretty much the gist of it, yes? This could all be possible using the capabilities of Grant/Revoke in the engine. It'd just happen at the same time and without loyalty hits (it is as it's supposed to go, after all).
    Let's assume the grant/revoke code can be easily called by the inheritance code. This is not a given. It might have to be re-written.

    Additionally lets assume the inheritance code is robust enough to handle everyone at once. This is also not a given because it's designed to handle one inheritance at a time.

    You've still got to tell the game which titles are where in the rotation. It's got to be robust enough that a King of Hungary who manages to seize the Prince-title of Turov doesn't get into the rotation, but a Rurikid Count who creates Karelia does get into the rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nuril View Post
    Well, that's the case for everything ("It'd be best to have unique code for it"), but that's a luxury.
    To do this tright you'll need at least one special screen unique to Kiev listing who is where in the rotation. Otherwise people who play Kiev will have no idea what's going on even if the other Rurikid Principalities act mostly historically.

    That's gonna take unique code, which means an expansion.

    Nick

  13. #13
    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draztikus View Post
    Ignore Nick B II, he seems to think CK is being made by jamming CK1's engine into EU3's map.
    For inheritance purposes it is, pretty much.

    We're getting three new things:

    1) Non-stupid elective law.

    2) Supported female inheritance.

    3) People with multiple King-titles can have multiple heirs.

    We are definitly not getting anything sophisticated enough to handle a rotational system.

    Nick

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    First Lieutenant vwclaymore's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nick B II View Post
    You've still got to tell the game which titles are where in the rotation. It's got to be robust enough that a King of Hungary who manages to seize the Prince-title of Turov doesn't get into the rotation, but a Rurikid Count who creates Karelia does get into the rotation.

    To do this tright you'll need at least one special screen unique to Kiev listing who is where in the rotation. Otherwise people who play Kiev will have no idea what's going on even if the other Rurikid Principalities act mostly historically.

    Nick
    This is definately where things get messy and difficult with making the game do this correctly. I pretty much agree with this bit. We'd all of course love to see it in the game and working right, but I doubt PI is going to devote that time to it. Mod? Maybe, but probably wouldn't be able to handle everything exactly right. It does look like it'd have to be an official patch or expansion.

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    Game Director Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    My main concerns when adding succession laws (or any other feature, really) are:

    1) Does it make for interesting gameplay (with clear pros and cons)?
    2) How historically relevant is it, i.e. how widespread was its use?
    3) Does the complexity of implementation outweigh the above benefits?

    The Rota system, like Tanistry - unfortunately, I should add - fails on all three points (though with enough thought and effort it might make for interesting gameplay.
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    Doomdark, you might add "4) How does this feature improve the game to feel "individual" playing other dynasties."
    That's where the feature made a point and what could make it interesting. If the King of France feels the same
    as the Tsar of Russia there might be a lack of replayability.

    However, I wouldn't give it high priority.
    The main thing is the usual western european feudal system but the
    wild east deserves some love, too

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    Game Director Paradox Dev Team Doomdark's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_legion View Post
    Doomdark, you might add "4) How does this feature improve the game to feel "individual" playing other dynasties."
    That's where the feature made a point and what could make it interesting. If the King of France feels the same
    as the Tsar of Russia there might be a lack of replayability.

    However, I wouldn't give it high priority.
    The main thing is the usual western european feudal system but the
    wild east deserves some love, too
    I might indeed add that point, but it is not a main concern.
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  18. #18
    wishes for a WWI game Affenklaus's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_legion View Post
    Doomdark, you might add "4) How does this feature improve the game to feel "individual" playing other dynasties."
    That's where the feature made a point and what could make it interesting. If the King of France feels the same
    as the Tsar of Russia there might be a lack of replayability.
    This is a good point. Although I like every Pardox game I played so far (well...except HoI3) the newer Clausewitz-Engine games lack a bit in this regard, I think.
    While the semi-sandbox approach in this games isn't bad per se, the loss of individualisation the Europa-Engine games had because of their historical determinism isn't quite compensated in my opinion.
    For example playing a HRE member in EU3 is distinctly different from playing a non-HRE member (good) but the HRE members themselves play all the same (bad).
    For me all Clausewitz games released so far need mods adding more regional diversity to gain real replayability (good thing they are modding friendly so there are good mods for all of them ), the vanilla-versions of Europa-Engine games just somehow feel more complete.
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    Field Marshal Nick B II's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomdark View Post
    My main concerns when adding succession laws (or any other feature, really) are:

    1) Does it make for interesting gameplay (with clear pros and cons)?
    2) How historically relevant is it, i.e. how widespread was its use?
    3) Does the complexity of implementation outweigh the above benefits?

    The Rota system, like Tanistry - unfortunately, I should add - fails on all three points (though with enough thought and effort it might make for interesting gameplay.
    Given all this, I must state the following:
    I, the great and knowledgeable Nick, order you to do a really good job on CK2 so we can get expansions with both Tanistry and the Rota system.

    If you fail I will pout mercilessly.

    Nick

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doomdark View Post
    I might indeed add that point, but it is not a main concern.
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