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Thread: Nubia?

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Calanctus View Post
    Well this is disappointing. Playing Iberian and Polish monarchs is not really going to resemble reality in any way if there aren't Jewish courtiers.
    Indeed. Go wonder...

  2. #22
    Crusader Kaleidoscope's Avatar
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    I'm sure it'll be easily modded.
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  3. #23
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    I always liked Nubia in the first game. I used to spam them for marriages to pick up all the women in their court before they got knocked out by the Fatamids. One time, as Scotland, half my court ended up being Arab Orthodox Christians.

  4. #24
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Semi-Lobster View Post
    Y
    As for Nubia, I was under the impression that Nobatia had already merged into Makuria but I agree Alodia should be a separate crown that Makuria is holding since Alodia was merged into Makuria and then separated again in the 12 century
    Nobatia is a little problematic, since it seems there at some points were separate kings in Nobatia and Makuria, then they had the same kings, and then separate again. (Nobatia seems to have been absorbed in the 600s, and since then being more or less in Makuria's sphere of interest) Probably the same dynasty ruling both, sometimes centralized under a personal union, and sometimes under two separate monarchs. But then a short lived independent kingdom of Nobadia existed under Dotawo right before the Sennar invasion. At least Nobatia should be a separate crown (could even be that the Nobatian "kings" were Makurian vassals). But yes, Makuria should be the dominating power in Nubia.

    Another interesting bit is that Nubia consisted both of settled areas with cities, and large parts of land that were dominated by nomadic tribes (who were subjects of the kings). How will nomads in Nubia, Ethiopia and Arabia (Bedouins) be handled?

    And how should the influx of Islam in Nubia be handled? Seems to have happened through slow Arab immigration and Nubian assimilation with the Arabs.
    Last edited by yourworstnightm; 11-03-2011 at 09:16.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourworstnightm View Post
    Nobatia is a little problematic, since it seems there at some points were separate kings in Nobatia and Makuria, then they had the same kings, and then separate again. (Nobatia seems to have been absorbed in the 600s, and since then being more or less in Makuria's sphere of interest) Probably the same dynasty ruling both, sometimes centralized under a personal union, and sometimes under two separate monarchs. But then a short lived independent kingdom of Nobadia existed under Dotawo right before the Sennar invasion. At least Nobatia should be a separate crown (could even be that the Nobatian "kings" were Makurian vassals). But yes, Makuria should be the dominating power in Nubia.
    Could work, it could be a 'dead' title like the HR Emperor being the 'King of Italy' that can be revived if you're feeling like playing a weasily vassal. As for Dotawo thats getting pretty far into the EUIII timeframe. The Ideal setup would be the king of Makuria (Georgios III) also holding the titles of 'King of Nobatia' and 'King of Alodia' but it's hold on the title for Alodia would be weak its constituent territories and prone to breaking away.

    And how should the influx of Islam in Nubia be handled? Seems to have happened through slow Arab immigration and Nubian assimilation with the Arabs.
    There was a series of invasions, migration and assimilation in Nubia during this time period. By the start of the game there were already Arabic speaking Muslim tribes of Afro-Arabs as far as Darfur. In EUIII a major problem I found was that there was no organic, non-state sponsored religious movement other than the reformation. I'm not sure how things will be handled in CK2, there were invasions though, that would be the easiest things to model right off the bat probably.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleidoscope View Post
    I'm sure it'll be easily modded.
    Probably. But it´s difficult to understand from a historical viewpoint, anyhow.

  7. #27
    Hopefully the Islamic states don't tag-team the Nubians and Ethiopians and basically conquer that whole region. In CK1 that's what happened to Nubia, usually within 5 game years.

    Also yeah, a lack of Judaism is going to be odd. Can't really capture the uniqueness of the Khazars or the Ethiopian situation without it.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Mrdie View Post
    Hopefully the Islamic states don't tag-team the Nubians and Ethiopians and basically conquer that whole region. In CK1 that's what happened to Nubia, usually within 5 game years.

    Also yeah, a lack of Judaism is going to be odd. Can't really capture the uniqueness of the Khazars or the Ethiopian situation without it.
    And the uniqueness of MEDIEVAL EUROPE is somewhat also lost. This is really disappointing.

  9. #29
    Ok, jews will be in mods and probably in expansions.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by besaccia View Post
    Ok, jews will be in mods and probably in expansions.
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  11. #31
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    The Kingdom of Beta Israel (Gonder area and Semien Mountains) was Jewish and survived until the 13th century.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mad King James View Post
    The Kingdom of Beta Israel (Gonder area and Semien Mountains) was Jewish and survived until the 13th century.
    You are indeed quiet right, although the height of the Kingdom of Semien was the 13th century. The kingdom itself as a political entity existed until the early 17th century after surviving repeated invasion by Ethiopia.

    At the end of the day though if the devs are saying that there will no Jewish.... anything, so theres no real point in trying to speculate on the subject the only thing we can really do when it comes to Judith and the other Jewish peoples of the Horn of Africa is to see how they somehow abstract Judaism (Paganism? Christian Heathens?)

    I just want to make sure the playable nations of Africa (in Nubia and Ethiopia) are presented correctly since I know Paradox have always been very keen to listen to fans. I remember when Crusader Kings came out that I mentioned the politics of the Obotrites in 1066 after the murder of the Christian prince (and later saint) Gottschalk, his sons and his pagan rival Krut and in the next patch the generic leaders of the provinces were fixed to their historically correct ones.

  13. #33
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    Can't wait to start a game as Nubia in CK2 and end up in Victoria 2 fighting a great war between the Grand Kingdom of Nubia and the Soviet Union of Burgundy.

    Or whatever. But I'm glad its back.

  14. #34
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Since the Horn of Africa is on the map, I wonder how northern Somalia will be handled. During this era powerful sultanates like Ifat and Adal rose up, but we know very little about Somalia before the birth of those empires. However the creation of strong Muslim dynasties in Somalia created a constant threat to Ethiopia from the south.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by yourworstnightm View Post
    Since the Horn of Africa is on the map, I wonder how northern Somalia will be handled. During this era powerful sultanates like Ifat and Adal rose up, but we know very little about Somalia before the birth of those empires. However the creation of strong Muslim dynasties in Somalia created a constant threat to Ethiopia from the south.
    Muslim Polities on the Horn of Africa converted early to Islam, mostly in the 7th and 8th centuries but remained nothing more than independent towns and cities. Ifat which grew to prominence during the 13th and 14th centuries was notable in that it was the first attempt by one of the polities to create a unified Islamic state in East Africa with the main clashing point with the Zagwe being the Kingdom of Shewa. All of this happened though after 1066 though (the game start date). The Somali states can be represented by a series of independent, tribal, city-states with the Sultanate of Ifat and possibly the Sultanate of Adal being creatable titles

  16. #36
    Playing as Nubia will be 10 times as exciting now that they can expand southwards.

  17. #37
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    So, um...why are there no Jews in-game if there was a Jewish state at game start?
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  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyReb View Post
    So, um...why are there no Jews in-game if there was a Jewish state at game start?
    CK is a simulator of the Midieval Christian High Nobility. That kinda cuts out Jews completely. Yeah you've got Court Jews, but when they implemented events appropriate for Court Jews in CK1 everybody went ballistic. Turns out players didn't like burning those guys at the stake just because the Pope got antzy.

    Pagans of various stripes, and Moslems are somewhat neccesary for diplomatic reasons. But even they are not gonna be very accurate. It's not like there's gonna be Harems.

    As for Beta Israel keep two things in mind:
    1) It would be easier for them to cut it off the map then to implement an entire religion for just that one County. If it's even big enough to be a County.
    2) It's not gonna be playable if exists. It's not Christian. If you want to play it you'll have to mod it in yourself, or hope it gets included in the Moslem expansion.

    And a third:
    There's no way in hell DoomDark reads a Jewish state was on his map during his time period and thinks "Damnit I'm gonna have to learn me some Hebrew." The Dev decisions were made, probably weeks before they put up this forum.

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  19. #39
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    Though they considered themselves Jews and the descendants of the Tribe of Dan, Beta Israel's religion was an amalgam between ancient Jewish and local elements. I don't see any problem to have their kingdom portrayed as pagan. After all, in the game they'll be only conquest material. Hopefully, to pacify those who wish to have a Jewish kingdom in the age of the Crusades, the game will allow other specific religions to be modded. Personally, I'd like to see a mod which will distinguish between the Christian Churches of the Middle-East and allow the possibility of the Il-Khanate to turn Nestorian.
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  20. #40
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Yes, I'm pretty disappointed neither the Khazars nor the Ethiopian Jews will be in (heck, if Ethiopia can't be portrayed correctly, why have it on the map, unnecessary to have an area there if it's not worked on).

    Oh, and I actually didn't know there was a Muslim kingdom in Shewa, you always learn new stuff.

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