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Thread: Gentlemen in Germany - a Brunswick AAR

  1. #161
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    1481-1483: End of an Era - the Last of the Spies


    Baden was one country that didn't let Bavaria off the hook easily. The small nation successfully requested the province of Pfalz to end the war as far as they were concerned.



    Additionally, the peace deal separated Worms from the rest of the nation.

    Meanwhile, Brandenburg was going down. By December, they were completely occupied by Bohemia and suffered a bankruptcy.



    For some reason, Bohemia continued the Brandenburger war for months after this. At least they ended the Bohemia-Hungary war in June 1482 with small territorial gains for Bohemia.

    The next year featured slow technological progress in Brunswick and little else of interest. Then finally in June 1483, Bohemia accepted peace with Brandenburg, forcing the release of Pommerania and a small Poland.



    Heinrich wanted to take advantage of this, he just didn't know how. Then in a court meeting, Natural Scientist Christian von Rhein told the King of an old man living in Paderborn.

    Von Rhein, almost sixty himself, had spent a lot of time in that city decades ago and knew of a secretive man living just outside the walls. Few knew anything about him these days, but von Rhein had lived close to him at a time when the man, perhaps ten years von Rhein's senior, still lived in the city and was much less reticent.

    Despite the earlier successful operations in Holstein and Bremen, spies hadn't been trained in Brunswick for decades now, and most believed that all of them must have died of old age after such a long time. What made the man in Paderborn interesting, von Rhein explained, was that, thanks to his longevity and being among the last and therefore youngest to be trained, he was probably Brunswick's last spy. He might be the only man in the country capable of creating a reason for war out of thin air.



    The King was very sceptical. The spy had to be close to seventy years old - if he was indeed still alive, Heinrich wagered that he had to be too senile or crippled to get a major operation like that done.

    He was wrong. When no other way to deal with Brandenburg was found, Heinrich decided that they had nothing to lose, so Von Rhein went back to Paderborn and paid the man a visit. They never saw the spy again, they never even learned his full name, but soon enough, interesting documents were found on Heinrich III's throne - the vigilant guards could not explain how they ended up there - as well as in the most important and secure archives all over Europe. The old man sure had got the job done.



    Maybe he was still sharp and had carefully maintained his skills over the decades, maybe no-one just was suspicious of an elderly man. Whatever the reason for his success, Brunswick was now ready for war.



    Despite the treachery of Brunswick's ally Gelre and a small revolt in Anhalt, the war itself was a simple matter. Thanks to bankruptcies and other chaos, Brandenburg wasn't able to fight back and only held for just over a month. On August 8th, Heinrich III was crowned King of Brandenburg.



    The last act of Brunswick's last spy had been a grand success, but from now on, the nation had to make do without the services of such men.
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  2. #162

  3. #163
    Natural Scientist sounds like some political party. Another dishonourable act by Brunswick. Brandenburg is in a personal union -at least you didn't annex outright. You've finally got a CB on Gelre and can punish them. Really dislike how the game mods the Holy Roman Empire. There were 7 electors, period. The number didn't change until the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.No kings except the King of the Romans -the Emperor-designate.

  4. #164
    The Last Spy. Sounds like it would make a great movie.

    "He came out of retirement for one last mission. He would make the King of Brunswick the King of Brandenburg. Or die trying."

  5. #165
    People's Commissar of the Navy Demi Moderator Avindian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen View Post
    The Last Spy. Sounds like it would make a great movie.

    "He came out of retirement for one last mission. He would make the King of Brunswick the King of Brandenburg. Or die trying."
    I would watch this movie.
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  6. #166
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    Great casus belli.

  7. #167
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    Ah, the swan song of Brunswick intelligence - I'm positive as well that after 500 years this will be a best-seller. Don't be sad that the spies are gone, however - forging documents and looking into the private affairs of other rulers isn't a very gentlemanly thing to do

    By the way, why don't spies come any more, are the sliders causing them to stagnate or decrease? If the last statement is true, how long would it be before the number of spies was less then 1.0?

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen View Post
    The Last Spy. Sounds like it would make a great movie.

    "He came out of retirement for one last mission. He would make the King of Brunswick the King of Brandenburg. Or die trying."
    When is this coming out !!! WHEEENN !!!!
    Nothing to say.

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  9. #169
    The Guardian of Divergences Athalcor's Avatar
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    I think I would give the role to Sean Connery.
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  10. #170
    Field Marshal Malurous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boris ze Spider View Post
    shame the spies are gone, but at least the last one was useful
    Yeah, I figured I'd do something a bit more useful with the last one than what I did with the other two (the Holstein rebellion and the Bremen PU) as Bohemia and France are getting too strong for my limited expansion capabilities. This was as far as I was going to go however. I.e. no PUing Bohemia or something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    Another dishonourable act by Brunswick. Brandenburg is in a personal union -at least you didn't annex outright.
    How so? As far as everyone's concerned, widespread documents were found that proved that Heinrich was the legitimate king of Brandenburg. I fail to see the dishonor in enforcing that. That said, there's obviously a reason why I made sure that I stopped getting spies (as described in the first post).

    Of course I didn't annex. I can't if I don't have cores.

    You've finally got a CB on Gelre and can punish them.
    They'll get their punishment. I won't use this CB however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omen View Post
    The Last Spy. Sounds like it would make a great movie.

    "He came out of retirement for one last mission. He would make the King of Brunswick the King of Brandenburg. Or die trying."
    Glad that you like it. I stopped the update where I did on purpose to make this a "separate" short and sweet (in my opinion) story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Avindian View Post
    I would watch this movie.
    Me too. I just hope that, quoting from the AAR, "maybe no-one just was suspicious of an elderly man" isn't the explanation or it might be a dull movie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald View Post
    Great casus belli.
    Thanks, we're simply doing what is just.

    Quote Originally Posted by Memento Mori View Post
    Ah, the swan song of Brunswick intelligence - I'm positive as well that after 500 years this will be a best-seller. Don't be sad that the spies are gone, however - forging documents and looking into the private affairs of other rulers isn't a very gentlemanly thing to do
    It doesn't appear ungentlemanly if you don't get caught! I'm definitely not sad as it went as planned.

    By the way, why don't spies come any more, are the sliders causing them to stagnate or decrease? If the last statement is true, how long would it be before the number of spies was less then 1.0?
    Like stated in the first post of this AAR, I was "forced by the rules" (meaning I chose to do so) to move towards Free Trade in the beginning. This was done for the very reason of removing spies from the equation. Once I was out of Mercantilism, they stopped coming, no decrease however. Oh and by the way, I really didn't time it to milk this either - the spies are now stuck at 0.93 or something to that effect.

    To shed further light on how I ended up with this rule, I was first wondering if I should ban spies outright. But then I figured that:

    a) Brunswick's kings and court members, while generally good and kind people, want to expand the nation whenever they have a legitimate excuse to do so. Their honor code forbids any other kind of expansion, so they push hard for any claims. Remember, accepting a Boundary Dispute gives you a relations hit and the other side gets a Diplomatic Insult CB, so it could be seen as ungentlemanly. Compared to that, using spies would appear to be less so. Especially if, like here, you don't get caught. And I wasn't going to remain a two province minor for the rest of the game so I had to do something that some people would find questionable anyway.

    b) I might need the few spies I would get (which turned out to be three), seeing my start and the limiting rules.

    When I found out the total amount I got, I decided to help my early growth somewhat with the first two, and keep the third one and determine its use later. Then, when it turned out that this game features probably the strongest 15th century France I've ever played against in HTTT and a very powerful Bohemia to boot, I thought that I have to do something more than nab a OPM with the last one. In a different Europe with a bit more parity, I would have wasted it on something pretty much inconsequential.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnishFish View Post
    When is this coming out !!! WHEEENN !!!!
    You acquire the professional film-making equipment and the old guy, then jump on a train to Helsinki (central railway station). I'll take care of the rest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    I think I would give the role to Sean Connery.
    Perfect fit!
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  11. #171
    In the first place the only King in the Holy Roman Empire was the King of the Romans -the Emperor's designated heir.

    The ruler of Brandenburg was an Elector. Bransdenburg's lands carry this designation and a superior title to Heinrich's Duke of Brunswick. If you were to annex or inherit, you would have to swap to playing Brandenburg, because it is the superior title.
    The Princes pretty much forced Sigismund to give up Brandenburg in 1414 to the relatively minor Swabian Hohernzollerns. Heinrich's land and title grab wouldn't be considered permanent until a Diet confirms him in it. Diet's aren't really properly used in this. Just because the provinces consider themselves Brunswickers doesn't mean that the other princes will at a Diet.

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    ...
    Now, I'd have nothing against a more detailed modeling of the HRE. But since there isn't one in the game, and these guys are all kings, and the HRE considers cores rightful land, I don't think I have to pay much attention to that. In the world where Heinrich III & co. are living, the scenario is (perhaps unfortunately) different and they are living by the rules of that world.
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  13. #173
    If your're going to quote me, quote me, but don't use "...". Nowhere in the post to which you are referring did I use "...".

    As I recollect, you have a core on Ruppin. Your house rules states you could not act against a state unless you had a core on a province and the war would be for that core.
    It would have been cceptable to use your last spy on fabricating claims to Brunswick-Luneburg. You could make a case for that state to be a long-lost part of Brunswick and reasonable to use your third and final spy. Against Brandenburg, I do not regard it as acceptable use. A big France and Bohemia is mere sophistry.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    If you're going to quote me, quote me, but don't use "...". Nowhere in the post to which you are referring did I use "...".

    As I recollect, you have a core on Ruppin. Your house rules states you could not act against a state unless you had a core on a province and the war would be for that core.
    It would have been cceptable to use your last spy on fabricating claims to Brunswick-Luneburg. You could make a case for that state to be a long-lost part of Brunswick and reasonable to use your third and final spy. Against Brandenburg, I do not regard it as acceptable use. A big France and Bohemia is mere sophistry.
    Now the forum won't let me edit my posts to correct typos.

  15. #175
    Evil forum

    And why are my comments are all ways at the bottom >:[ (Or do you have policy of save the best for last :] )
    Nothing to say.

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  16. #176
    Major Chris Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    ... Your house rules states you could not act against a state unless you had a core on a province and the war would be for that core.
    It would have been acceptable to use your last spy on fabricating claims to Brunswick-Luneburg. You could make a case for that state to be a long-lost part of Brunswick and reasonable to use your third and final spy. Against Brandenburg, I do not regard it as acceptable use. A big France and Bohemia is mere sophistry.
    Nice customs curtsy to great kings?

    I am not too heartbroken when an AAR goes outside its initial parameters. Countries need to adapt to changing times and geopolitical situations, so I can see shelving a self-imposed rule once or twice for special cases. The explosive growth of a neighbour ought to be a red danger sign constantly flashing in the background. And what fun would the history of Rome be if all the Emperors were benevolent Trajans and Hadrians without any vile Neros and Caligulas?

    Rules lawyering aside, I've enjoyed lurking/reading this AAR and am looking forward to Brunswick getting its mitts on Lüneburg someday.
    Last edited by Chris Taylor; 28-05-2011 at 20:48. Reason: spelling!
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  17. #177
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    Now Brunswik-Brandenburg is officlally a major player in the HRE. Well done!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    Really dislike how the game mods the Holy Roman Empire. There were 7 electors, period. The number didn't change until the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.No kings except the King of the Romans -the Emperor-designate.
    I sort of agree. But, as for kingdoms in the HRE, wasn't Bohemia a kingdom within the Empire?

    I'd love to see the Empire played by its historical rules. But we have to accept it's vanilla EU3 and not SRI or MM. Malorus put it clearly;

    Quote Originally Posted by Malurous View Post
    In the world where Heinrich III & co. are living, the scenario is (perhaps unfortunately) different and they are living by the rules of that world.
    In vanilla the dynamics within HRE is different, there's this tendency to blobbing (vide Bavaria, Bohemia in this game) and no one needs claims/cores/Emperor's acceptance to keep occupied/conquered territory. Accepting thsese rules, Brunswick-Brandenburg PU is ok.

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    If your're going to quote me, quote me, but don't use "...". Nowhere in the post to which you are referring did I use "...".
    There is no way to specifically reply to a post in this forum without quoting it. The meaning of "..." should be clear enough, but fine.

    As I recollect, you have a core on Ruppin.
    I do not.

    Your house rules states you could not act against a state unless you had a core on a province and the war would be for that core. It would have been cceptable to use your last spy on fabricating claims to Brunswick-Luneburg. You could make a case for that state to be a long-lost part of Brunswick and reasonable to use your third and final spy. Against Brandenburg, I do not regard it as acceptable use. A big France and Bohemia is mere sophistry.
    Please actually read the house rules before implying in the thread that I've broken them when that is not the case. Also, please do not invent house rules and claim in the thread that they're mine. That's not very respectful and might mislead others.

    The rules are still in the first post and can be reviewed there. I have never owned or conquered a non-core province (nor will I do so in the future), so I have never broken the house rules (of course I've fulfilled the slider requirement as well). To be honest, I don't even understand where you're coming from here, as I see absolutely no ambivalence in this situation.

    If you consider fabricating a claim on Lüneburg acceptable and Brandenburg unacceptable, then you're being completely inconsistent. It's the same spy action no matter the target. Brunswick has no outside claims at game beginning, and that's all that history has to do with any rules on expansion.

    Yes, France & Bohemia are inconsequential as far as rule interpretation goes. The rules were always the same, I simply chose to pick a more major use for that spy because of the situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnishFish View Post
    And why are my comments are all ways at the bottom >:[ (Or do you have policy of save the best for last :] )
    You mean in the feedback posts? They're in chronological order, I believe they've always been. Maybe your comments are of such high quality that I always feel like doing a feedback post after you say something?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    I am not too heartbroken when an AAR goes outside its initial parameters. Countries need to adapt to changing times and geopolitical situations, so I can see shelving a self-imposed rule once or twice for special cases. The explosive growth of a neighbour ought to be a red danger sign constantly flashing in the background. And what fun would the history of Rome be if all the Emperors were benevolent Trajans and Hadrians without any vile Neros and Caligulas?

    Rules lawyering aside, I've enjoyed lurking/reading this AAR and am looking forward to Brunswick getting its mitts on Lüneburg someday.
    Good to hear that you've enjoyed it. I must say, I'm looking forward to a boundary dispute on Lüneburg if I can get one.

    It's true that Heinrich III is perhaps more aggressive than other Brunswicker Kings are. But I still don't believe any rules have been broken, no matter how I look at it.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    Now Brunswik-Brandenburg is officlally a major player in the HRE. Well done!
    Thanks! It's also quite important to keep Brandenburg out of Bohemian hands.

    I'd love to see the Empire played by its historical rules. But we have to accept it's vanilla EU3 and not SRI or MM.

    In vanilla the dynamics within HRE is different, there's this tendency to blobbing (vide Bavaria, Bohemia in this game) and no one needs claims/cores/Emperor's acceptance to keep occupied/conquered territory. Accepting thsese rules, Brunswick-Brandenburg PU is ok.
    Yes, I fully agree with this view. Well put, too.
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  19. #179
    Major kepler's Avatar
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    Hi, I am still catching up, but I have also read the latest posts.
    As people already said, I don't think any rule was broken.
    I agree that HRE is a bit flat in Vanilla, but this AAR is succeeding in making it interesting. If the game gives you cores (even when I think it's crazy) then it means your claim is somehow acknowledged in this "alternate" universe.
    About the proper game, am I getting confused when I say that you would become a new Elector upon inheritance of Brandenburg? Or is it only SRI/MM?
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  20. #180
    Always nice to see Brandenburg get a good humbling.
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