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Thread: Gentlemen in Germany - a Brunswick AAR

  1. #141
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    Answer the alliance, vassalize Trier and Mecklenburg, and watch how Bayern crumbles, giving away their provinces if possible.

  2. #142
    The Guardian of Divergences Athalcor's Avatar
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    Well...you share no borders with Bohemia and you can play 'the supporting role'. After all, you are the Gentleman in Germany. If you cancelled the alliance, you would prove that your alliance with Bavaria was just an act of calculation.
    IMHO you should the war in the name of Heinrich (2k+1). /k belongs to N0/
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omen View Post
    A difficult question. A gentleman stands by his allies. If you did not wish to come to Bavaria's aid, then the alliance should have been broken due to their actions. This is also a defensive war. In this case they are not the aggressors, but have been attacked. However, their hands are not clean.

    A very prickly situation indeed.
    The bolded part is a good point. When I signed that alliance it was a must for safety reasons - they're simply so strong that winning a war with what I had would have been very tricky as even if I scorched etc. I might not have had the strength to finish them off seeing their numbers and the fact that they have such easy access. I was going to break the alliance when I got a bit stronger, but this situation came too early. And I didn't like allying them in the first place, but it's better than being their next snack.

    Also, "defensive war" maybe isn't as honorable as it sounds when you're being attacked with the Dishonorable Scum CB (or Excommunication for that matter I guess)...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekromans View Post
    Don't answer the alliance - declare a war of reconquest to make up for the prestige loss. Bavaria can hardly withstand a triple assault from Brunswick, Bohemia AND Milan.

    Of course, this is ignoring honour, but the honourable thing would have been to not ally with such cads as Bavaria in the first place. Rectify Brunswick's past mistakes in a manner that will spare them from having to stoop to such depths in the future.
    That's one way to see it, and I kind of like the view you suggest in the last sentence. Like I said, I wouldn't have accepted the alliance offer if not for the likely alternative of them attacking me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    Gentlemen honour their alliances. France is getting rather too powerful.
    They are, aren't they? Too bad that Bohemia has probably been conquering too much to win an election, I'd like to see them as HRE as that would either make it harder for France or destroy the Bohemian monster...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald View Post
    Answer the alliance, vassalize Trier and Mecklenburg, and watch how Bayern crumbles, giving away their provinces if possible.
    I don't force-vassalize for no reason. And as the game progresses, the "reason" has to be more and more egregious I think...

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    Well...you share no borders with Bohemia and you can play 'the supporting role'. After all, you are the Gentleman in Germany. If you cancelled the alliance, you would prove that your alliance with Bavaria was just an act of calculation.
    It's a question of what is deemed the gentlemanly thing in a situation where there's no truly right option. And is it wrong to lie to keep a criminal off your back? Tough questions.

    Whatever I choose, I think I'll have my hands full when writing the update trying to explain how and why the characters came to that decision... Now I'm thinking that I probably should have just risked it and declined that alliance offer, but there's no going back in time. And who knows, maybe they'd have steamrolled me already if I'd done that.

    IMHO you should the war in the name of Heinrich (2k+1). /k belongs to N0/
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  4. #144
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    Surely honour dictates answering a defensive call.

    What can you get out of this war?


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  5. #145
    Field Marshal blsteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrawnStar View Post
    Surely honour dictates answering a defensive call.

    What can you get out of this war?
    Not very gentlemanly in the last sentence...
    I'd be playing the supporting role
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  6. #146
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    Whether you join in or not, I sense an turmoil coming with possibly interesting results; the map might look completely different after the war. One more thing for joining the conflict might be Heinrich's stats... he just might get kiled...

  7. #147
    Field Marshal blsteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    Whether you join in or not, I sense an turmoil coming with possibly interesting results; the map might look completely different after the war. One more thing for joining the conflict might be Heinrich's stats... he just might get kiled...

    I like the way you think.
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  8. #148
    Heinrich.... That would be my name if i would be German
    Nothing to say.

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  9. #149

  10. #150
    Field Marshal Malurous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrawnStar View Post
    Surely honour dictates answering a defensive call.

    What can you get out of this war?
    Nothing, pretty much. The only thing besides cash that's available is Münster. I have no other cores there, and don't feel like I have a proper reason to vassalize anyone.

    Also, taking anything would be very difficult to accomplish. That DoW is just the tip of the iceberg: most of the HRE will DoW Bavaria within the next couple of months, and I'm simply a bit too weak (force limit 16 FTW) for such a situation. Keeping people out OR starting sieges is doable, not both.

    Quote Originally Posted by blsteen View Post
    Not very gentlemanly in the last sentence...
    I'd be playing the supporting role
    Heh. I wouldn't ally with them in the first place! Damn, I really don't like what I got myself into.

    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    Whether you join in or not, I sense an turmoil coming with possibly interesting results; the map might look completely different after the war. One more thing for joining the conflict might be Heinrich's stats... he just might get kiled...
    There's a lot going on in Europe in general, so yes, some quick changes in the map are coming up.

    Heinrich will be locked in his castle - a DIP 8 monarch is gold when boundary disputes are your primary tool for expansion.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnishFish View Post
    Heinrich.... That would be my name if i would be German
    Sounds like a solid choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris ze Spider View Post
    I would take this chance to beat up Bohemia, who is probably the heir to the HRE.
    There's absolutely no such chance (see my answer to PrawnStar), and their infamy should prevent them from becoming HRE any time soon.
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  11. #151
    Field Marshal Malurous's Avatar
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    1479-1481: Taking Down a Monster


    After consulting with Statesman Hein, Heinrich III decided that the end must justify the means: even though dishonoring the alliance was unquestionably a low point in Brunswicker history, the rogue nation of Bavaria could not be tolerated anymore. Standing by Bavaria's side while they committed their crimes and preyed on the weak simply wasn't very classy behavior either.

    And neither was standing idly by - Brunswick would join the efforts to contain the scum. The fact that Bavaria also held rightfully Brunswicker land only made this more justified.



    All of Brunswick's vassals and allies joined the war, while Hungary stayed out. It seemed that everyone agreed that Bavaria had crossed the line.

    Finding the northern parts of Bavaria largely without enemy presence, the now 24000 strong Brunswicker army moved quickly. Led by excellent general Ferdinand Albrecht Schauseil from one of Brunswick's major noble families, the army split up in three parts and spread out, combining to assault where possible. Only just over three months into the war, Thüringen as well as Würzburg and Bamberg had fallen into Brunswicker hands without the need to fight actual battles.



    Days later in early December, things only got worse for the Bavarians as Mainz and their ally Lorraine joined the ad hoc coalition. While by themselves minor nations, they could still potentially do significant damage in the western part of Bavaria under these circumstances.

    The first battle action for Brunswick's armies came when the Bavarians tried to do what they knew best - bully the weak. Schauseil's men helped the Duke of Meissen hold the line as Bavarian general Hugenpoet attempted to strike at Brunswick's vassal Meissen.



    After the initial allied victory, Schauseil and Hugenpoet started a game of cat and mouse that saw their armies skirmish intermittently in Meissen as well as Bohemian territory over the next months.

    With Schauseil's lengthy campaign as well as the smaller Brunswicker armies now operating in southern Bavaria taking up resources, the nation's economy was pushed to the limit. Thankfully, some early 1480 efforts to further optimize the trading machine proved successful, allowing the war to go on.

    Both of the main armies were in bad shape by March when they arrived in a new province, Leipzig, for their next scuffle. Leipzig belonged to Brunswick's vassal Saxony, so general Schauseil was able to combine local knowledge with his superior leadership to finally score a decisive victory.



    After that battle, Bavaria was getting desperate. They had been asking for white peace earlier, but now all kinds of offers of major concessions were reaching Heinrich III's court. The King was not interested - the Bavarians were offering lands that Heinrich didn't feel he had any proper right to own. Most of the court agreed that accepting such a peace would only make Brunswick the rogue state.

    In May, the remains of Hugenpoet's army were finally eliminated in another battle in Leipzig. Schauseil didn't give the Bavarian general the honor of meeting him on the field one last time - the ragtag squad of just over eighty survivors was slaughtered by a small Brunswicker detachment led by a subordinate officer while Schauseil had already moved elsewhere to successfully assault the fortress in Franken.

    When Schwaben fell in June, Bavaria was all but defeated. Between Brunswick, Switzerland, Baden, Trier and the Palatinate, more than two thirds of the country was under foreign control, with the rest under siege.



    The Bavarians had been humbled. With his first diplomatic approaches, Heinrich III very soon found out that the Bavarian court was willing to do almost anything to get Brunswick off their backs. Therefore, he demanded the province of Thüringen, the establishment of buffer zones between Brunswick and Bavaria, and the freedom of all the peoples that Bavaria had conquered.

    It turned out that Bavaria was indeed only willing to do almost anything - the release of Württemberg was something that the Bavarians simply wouldn't accept. The Brunswick King didn't want the Württemberger question to thwart a favorable peace, especially since the provinces in question were rightfully owned by Bavaria unlike some of their territory. Peace was signed only a week after the fall of Schwaben, with terms as first offered by Heinrich III apart from the Württemberg exception.



    Brunswick had reclaimed Thüringen, and Bavaria was severely weakened and perhaps more importantly removed from Brunswick's border. As accepted by Bavaria, Würzburg and Thuringia - the two of the released nations that bordered Brunswick - were swiftly added to the Brunswicker sphere of influence.



    Notably, Heinrich III had shown that Brunswick could be a powerful nation despite his military shortcomings, and indeed thrive thanks to his skill in negotiations as long as a highly skilled general like Schauseil was available to take care of the war effort.

    The peace led to a peaceful period for Brunswick. For the rest of Europe, less so. A Teutonic Order-Muscowy peace in March 1481 made the Muscovites a clear factor in western politics.


    The highlighted province is Moskva itself. They're expanding pretty much straight towards Europe.

    Meanwhile, Bohemia was beating up both Brandenburg and Hungary, the latter of which was also struggling against the Ottoman Turks.

    Still, the calm and stable environment at home allowed Brunswick's cultural life and education to thrive. One effect was the arrival of a genius Treasurer, Karl Lindemann. Heinrich III was more than happy to add him to the court: there had been concerns about his predecessor Gruebel, as many experts found his methods obsolete after 47 years of serving Brunswick. He was dismissed from the court but supplied with a relatively generous state pension.

    With more than three quarters of Bavaria under the control of Bohemia and its allies in September, Bohemia made the curious decision of signing peace for only a very small indemnity. This worried Ansbach's ruler, as Bavaria might remain strong after all, and therefore a threat to the little nation. When Heinrich suggested that Ansbach become a vassal of their liberator, they figured it was the only safe thing to do.




    * * *

    OOC NOTE: I know some of you are disappointed with how this update turned out, and I have to agree with you. I would have played it differently now (i.e. not ally with Bavaria in the first place despite the danger). Because frankly, while I've technically played with the same rule set the whole time, the spirit of the rules changes at one point: it wasn't until the early 16th century that I started writing an AAR out of this game, and it's only then that I came up with the actual "gentlemen" concept, replacing a more pragmatic good guy RP (which I thought wouldn't have been very interesting to read) where the calculative alliance was more fitting. I still didn't like dishonoring it at all, but found it better than the alternative. Because of introducing the "gentlemen" I've had to shoehorn many early events to that concept, and on two occasions (this Bavarian alliance and, to some extent, the Oldenburg vassalization) it just couldn't be done in a way I'm happy with as, in spite of this AAR being more about the story, I do want to recount what actually happened.
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  12. #152
    The Guardian of Divergences Athalcor's Avatar
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    Yay! A name on the map.

    I need moar pink color!

    Independent Kurland? Interesting.

    And finally, Muscovy is written with 'w'? Seriously?
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  13. #153
    Awesome update man and don't worry about the gentlemanly thing. Sometimes a gentleman must wade into the mud!

  14. #154

  15. #155
    Field Marshal blsteen's Avatar
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    Yes, you did help the little people...somewhat...and yourself of course...hmmm
    Well you can't be perfect all the time
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  16. #156
    Russians are coming !
    Nothing to say.

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  17. #157
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    Brunswicker?
    Braunschweiger?

  18. #158
    You dishonoured? Not a very gentleman thing to do. Plenty of realpolitik going on, though. You did bring a core province into Brunswick and gained a new vassal. A few more cores wouldn't go amiss. Bohemia and Muscovy have carved yup Poland-Lithuania. A bloated Bohemia would be forced to disgorge a number of countries. Although, if Brunswick did win a war in this fashion against Bohemia, itwould be taking on the mantle of defending Germany from the muscurvy pirates.

  19. #159
    Great stuff here -- I'm also learning a bit from reading between the lines. Can't wait for more.

  20. #160
    Field Marshal Malurous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    Yay! A name on the map.

    I need moar pink color!
    It has been since I had something like three or four provinces. But you're DEFINITELY in the right place.

    Independent Kurland? Interesting.

    And finally, Muscovy is written with 'w'? Seriously?
    There's a lot going on in that area in this game, you can never tell who's independent or who's where.

    Yeah I don't know what that's about. I find myself alternating between Muscovy and Muscowy thanks to the game spelling, but I do find it strange.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gottskalk View Post
    Awesome update man and don't worry about the gentlemanly thing. Sometimes a gentleman must wade into the mud!
    Thanks! I could use the reinforcement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boris ze Spider View Post
    Is it really un-gentalmen like to help another nation do the opposite of your goals, i.e, politely expanding through Europe
    This, especially seeing how the situation developed. I would have practically been on the "evil" side of a world war!

    Quote Originally Posted by blsteen View Post
    Yes, you did help the little people...somewhat...and yourself of course...hmmm
    Well you can't be perfect all the time
    Hey, I helped the little people considerably more than myself! Unless you count taking Bavaria down as helping myself, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by FinnishFish View Post
    Russians are coming !
    They are. Really not typical behavior that Muscovy is pushing west like that. I believe it's because they're losing to GH and compensate by taking land elsewhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald View Post
    Brunswicker?
    Braunschweiger?
    Indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chief Ragusa View Post
    You dishonoured? Not a very gentleman thing to do. Plenty of realpolitik going on, though. You did bring a core province into Brunswick and gained a new vassal. A few more cores wouldn't go amiss.
    See my answer to Boris ze Spider... Like I've said, there was no good option there. Of course, it's debatable which was better.

    Cores are always welcome.

    Bohemia and Muscovy have carved yup Poland-Lithuania. A bloated Bohemia would be forced to disgorge a number of countries. Although, if Brunswick did win a war in this fashion against Bohemia, itwould be taking on the mantle of defending Germany from the muscurvy pirates.
    If I'm capable of crushing Bohemia at some point, I wouldn't worry much about what happens next. Bohemia isn't done growing.

    Quote Originally Posted by KyrionMyrthar View Post
    Great stuff here -- I'm also learning a bit from reading between the lines. Can't wait for more.
    Thanks! Good to hear that you're learning something here, it's funny that a few people have said that here when I've specifically made this AAR less gameplay oriented than my other stuff.
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