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I hope someone will use Mongol mechanic for zombie mod.

I still don't have steampunk zombie mod for Victoria 2. And my arctic expedition has never reached R'Lyeh.
 
As long as there are limits imposed on the hordes. They should do well in the East, and in the steppes, but there should be more difficulty as they head further west IMO, for ecological and logistical reasons. I don't know how to do this in detail but thought I'd bring it up.
 
The Mongols should operate under many of the same limits as any other force -- no more free lunch on anything just to make them "more terrifying".
 
What do I want for the Mongols in CK2?

1) A succession system that utilizes character traits and game rules to create potential succession crises. Since EU: Rome and Vae Victus already do something similar, I have confidence we will see something like this. In CK1, the only nod to these issues were events, and they were never satisfactory.

2) Early diplomatic options: First contact with the Mongols might not be the appearance of 150,000 soldiers in your lands, but instead be merchants and or nomads crossing borders. It should be possible to forestall invasion or even prevent it if you can keep cordial relations with the Khans (avoiding Khwarazm's mistake, anyone?)

3) Submission should be possible: You should be able to become a tributary of the Mongol Empire, even if you are a king. This should cost considerable money and prestige, but the option is sorely needed. Playing for time should allow for players to pull a Muscovy when the time comes.

4) Religious conversion for Mongol rulers should be possible in-game: No more pagan Mongols for the whole game just because you started in 1066. Religious conversion should also help legitimize Mongol rule and let them play religious political games. It should also result in civil wars and assassinations, like it did historically.

5) No more super-armies: There should be an end to 150,000 man armies that suffer no attrition and that fight equally well in mountains and steppe. This was, perhaps, a necessary evil in CK1, but I always hated that mechanic.

6) The Mongols need some kind of game mechanic that makes large-scale on-map unification difficult to achieve and maintain. In CK1, it is too easy for one horde to annex the other horde and create a super horde. Historically, stuff like that required Ghengis, Kublai, or Timur like abilities. Large hordes should only stay large and unified when a great leader is in power. When only mediocre leaders are in power, you should see smaller hordes fighting each other as well as their neighbors.

7) There should be more diplomatic options between Mongols and non-Mongols. Alliances should be possible, even when religious differences are present. The historical Mongols allied with Christian states like Bulgaria and even gave Venice and Genoa trade rights in places like Kaffa. The Mongols were not space aliens that killed everyone in sight and leveled all structures; they played politics and diplomacy, too.
 
This is possibly impossible but I would actually like the map to expand upon the advent of the Mongols. I can't tell you how mad I got when the Golden Horde appeared with one tiny little province, with it's liege lacking a wife or a successor and he died before he made a single conquest. This should be the MONGOL EMPIRE we face. Not just a tiny random province that decides to call itself a Mongol and change religion...
 
Secret Master said:
What do I want for the Mongols in CK2?

1) A succession system that utilizes character traits and game rules to create potential succession crises. Since EU: Rome and Vae Victus already do something similar, I have confidence we will see something like this. In CK1, the only nod to these issues were events, and they were never satisfactory.

2) Early diplomatic options: First contact with the Mongols might not be the appearance of 150,000 soldiers in your lands, but instead be merchants and or nomads crossing borders. It should be possible to forestall invasion or even prevent it if you can keep cordial relations with the Khans (avoiding Khwarazm's mistake, anyone?)

3) Submission should be possible: You should be able to become a tributary of the Mongol Empire, even if you are a king. This should cost considerable money and prestige, but the option is sorely needed. Playing for time should allow for players to pull a Muscovy when the time comes.

4) Religious conversion for Mongol rulers should be possible in-game: No more pagan Mongols for the whole game just because you started in 1066. Religious conversion should also help legitimize Mongol rule and let them play religious political games. It should also result in civil wars and assassinations, like it did historically.

5) No more super-armies: There should be an end to 150,000 man armies that suffer no attrition and that fight equally well in mountains and steppe. This was, perhaps, a necessary evil in CK1, but I always hated that mechanic.

6) The Mongols need some kind of game mechanic that makes large-scale on-map unification difficult to achieve and maintain. In CK1, it is too easy for one horde to annex the other horde and create a super horde. Historically, stuff like that required Ghengis, Kublai, or Timur like abilities. Large hordes should only stay large and unified when a great leader is in power. When only mediocre leaders are in power, you should see smaller hordes fighting each other as well as their neighbors.

7) There should be more diplomatic options between Mongols and non-Mongols. Alliances should be possible, even when religious differences are present. The historical Mongols allied with Christian states like Bulgaria and even gave Venice and Genoa trade rights in places like Kaffa. The Mongols were not space aliens that killed everyone in sight and leveled all structures; they played politics and diplomacy, too.
Click to expand...

See, these kinds of proposals would make the Mongols interesting and a reasonable challenge.
 
Secret Master said:
What do I want for the Mongols in CK2?
Click to expand...
Hear, hear!

Secret Master said:
2) Early diplomatic options: First contact with the Mongols might not be the appearance of 150,000 soldiers in your lands, but instead be merchants and or nomads crossing borders. It should be possible to forestall invasion or even prevent it if you can keep cordial relations with the Khans (avoiding Khwarazm's mistake, anyone?)
Click to expand...
I agree on the first part but the second part, with a good manpower, sooner or later they have to invade or subjugate you, conquering the world was their goal after all.
 
NOTHING should be inevitable. If a player can manipulate and/or intimidate the Mongols into going elsewhere, then so be it.
 
scholar said:
This is possibly impossible but I would actually like the map to expand upon the advent of the Mongols. I can't tell you how mad I got when the Golden Horde appeared with one tiny little province, with it's liege lacking a wife or a successor and he died before he made a single conquest. This should be the MONGOL EMPIRE we face. Not just a tiny random province that decides to call itself a Mongol and change religion...
Click to expand...

Well actually, the Mongol invasion of Europe was done by Tsubodai's army, more or less independently of the Mongol Empire's mainlands. Ogedei gave Tsubodai a huge army, and told him "give us a secure western border". Tsubodai obeyed by driving west and conquering all in his way. His plan was to stop when he reached the Atlantic ocean.

So the CK1 mechanism is NOT actually that bad. If you defeat the initial horde surge, you have destroyed Tsubodai's army, and stymied Mongol plans for a long time. There should not be an everlasting war - the territories east of the Urals are extremely sparsely settled, it's not like the Rus or Cumans were going to counterattack or anything. If Tsubodai's army is destroyed, the campaign is over, and it won't start again until Ogedei or whoever is Khan manages to muster another strong army.
 
I hope that the Mongols are not portrayed like in CK1. There were 2 cases with them.

1) you started a 1081 campaign and by the time they appeared they were not strong enough to provide a real challenge (that is if the human player was near the region of the invasion in order to react quickly)
2) If you started a 1337 campaign (my favorite btw - I liked playing the diminished Byzantium) they were a real beast. Nothing and I mean nothing could stop them I remember a game where I had reestablished byzantium 1025 borders and the Anjous had unified most of central europe and the mongols despite fighting both empires simultaneously destroyed us easily (due to the fact that we received attrition and they did not).

I expect them to be a strong mid and late game threat but I would like them to be more balanced and not seeing a huge yellow map every time
 
Leviathan07 said:
Well actually, the Mongol invasion of Europe was done by Tsubodai's army, more or less independently of the Mongol Empire's mainlands. Ogedei gave Tsubodai a huge army, and told him "give us a secure western border". Tsubodai obeyed by driving west and conquering all in his way. His plan was to stop when he reached the Atlantic ocean.

So the CK1 mechanism is NOT actually that bad. If you defeat the initial horde surge, you have destroyed Tsubodai's army, and stymied Mongol plans for a long time. There should not be an everlasting war - the territories east of the Urals are extremely sparsely settled, it's not like the Rus or Cumans were going to counterattack or anything. If Tsubodai's army is destroyed, the campaign is over, and it won't start again until Ogedei or whoever is Khan manages to muster another strong army.
Click to expand...
Not quite. Should a single man with a single province with no army to speak of be destroyed, the Mongols would not simply go elsewhere. They would send another wave. And Subutai's army wasn't the only one inflicting damages to the surrounding powers.

280px-Mongol_Empire_map.gif


There were multiple waves happening only decades apart in Persia as well as in Russia. Being defeated by one litle Duchy doesn't mean the Mongols stop... it means they will continue relentlessly in the next few decades. While Russia was being attacked, so was Anatolia. You don't stop the Mongols by defeating a small province. It's just silly. Even the people who defeated the Mongols, accepted Mongolian Sovereignty.
 
idomeneas said:
I hope that the Mongols are not portrayed like in CK1. There were 2 cases with them.

1) you started a 1081 campaign and by the time they appeared they were not strong enough to provide a real challenge (that is if the human player was near the region of the invasion in order to react quickly)
2) If you started a 1337 campaign (my favorite btw - I liked playing the diminished Byzantium) they were a real beast. Nothing and I mean nothing could stop them I remember a game where I had reestablished byzantium 1025 borders and the Anjous had unified most of central europe and the mongols despite fighting both empires simultaneously destroyed us easily (due to the fact that we received attrition and they did not).

I expect them to be a strong mid and late game threat but I would like them to be more balanced and not seeing a huge yellow map every time
Click to expand...

I think you make a good point in #1. The Mongol invasion and how it works should be dependent on a number of factors. We should not assume that what is going on in the playable map is the only part of human history that is working out contrary to how things really happened. How to model this I don't quite know, but it is something to keep in mind IMHO.
 
Wasn't one of the problems with the Mongols in CK1 a consistent typo in Mongol-related events that made certain events that would result in a collapse in the horde almost never fire? :)

That aside, I think some of the horde mechanics from EU3 DW could be used for CK2. They're always at war with neighboring settled states, and they can demand tribute or vassalization in peace deals, which covers much of what we would all want to see in CK2.

EDIT: Furthermore, the character and government mechanics from Rome would work really well for this, too. One of Rome's great features is how different government types are radically different in function, which would be a great improvement in CK2 over CK1, in which all countries operated like Christian feudal monarchies, but some of them with fewer features.

We already know that characters in CK2 will have their own ambitions and plots, and if this works well for Christian feudal monarchies, think of the delightful chaos that will ensue in a steppe horde when someone disputes the succession.
 
Secret Master said:
The Mongols might not be the appearance of 150,000 soldiers in your lands, but instead be merchants and or nomads crossing borders. It should be possible to forestall invasion or even prevent it if you can keep cordial relations with the Khans (avoiding Khwarazm's mistake, anyone?)
Click to expand...

Khwarazm didn't make any mistake imo,the mongols would have invade anyway,just like they did with the rest.
 
It would be fun to have some Mongol emissary to come to your court and if your King is an arrogant ass(I think it has been confirmed that character traits affect the decisions you can make, I may be wrong though.) and you're forced to execute the "barbarians" which will lead to a massive invasion of Europe.
 
Lord Tywin said:
It would be fun to have some Mongol emissary to come to your court and if your King is an arrogant ass(I think it has been confirmed that character traits affect the decisions you can make, I may be wrong though.) and you're forced to execute the "barbarians" which will lead to a massive invasion of Europe.
Click to expand...

One way or another there should be some playable character decision affecting how things go.
 
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