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Thread: Kriegsgefahr (Impending War) – Germany 1936 AAR – (SF HPP)

  1. #41
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    The Chinese theater is my work, so here are the answers to your comments about it

    Xibei San Ma was too small, and needed to get a few provinces added to its south-eastern portion. The PRC was also a bit too small, so they got some empty land in the north. Shanxi was also way too big in vanilla, and was a warlord state, so I shrunk it and its military down to an appropriate size. To balance things out a bit, the ROC doesn't have cores in that former territory, in order to simulate the lack of popular support for the KMT. The ROC will get those cores back if they beat the PRC or lose the civil war and flee to Taiwan.

    Vanilla Yunnan is the Yunnan province, as well as the western part of Sichuan. Sichuan was an important and wealthy warlord state (they fielded armored cars) that fully joined the ROC after the war broke out. Rather than make a new warlord nation that would disappear, I decided to abstract it and give Yunnan the rest of Sichuan. When China fires the United Front event after Japan attacks, if Yunnan joins, then it will cede Sichuan to the ROC.

    Vanilla Guangxi is actually two provinces: Guangxi and Guangdong. Slan added an event for when the Guangdong governor dies, in which the ROC will demand that the new governor come from Chiang's KMT faction. The southern areas were ruled by Wang Jingwei's left-leaning anti-Chiang faction of the KMT. Of course, as with all HPP events, Guangxi can refuse and a war can break out.

    Japan's strips of territory are historical. Well, mostly. The strip east of Beiping is a little too big, but represents the East Hebei Autonomous Council, which was a not-very-autonomous buffer territory created in '35. The entire Marco Polo Bridge incident was possible because Japan controlled this territory.

    The parts of Mengjiang that Japan starts off with shouldn't be there right away. I didn't have an event at the time to represent the Inner Mongolia rebellion in May '36, so I gave that land to Japan at the start. That will be changed in a later version.

    Oh, and China has a lot more rares now. About 55 more after it gets Guangdong, so they should be a good source of rares for you. The main reason for the Sino-German cooperation was because China supplied about 90% of Germany's rare materials, which isn't reflected in vanilla at all. You should have a strategic effect that simulates this without the actual trade.

    About the resource storage events. Don't worry too much about them, because when/if your stockpiles drop down to 25k, then the events will go away and you can build up your reserves again.
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  2. #42
    Field Marshal Stuyvesant's Avatar
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    Given your 'peaceful' nature (ha!), what kind of force composition is your goal - what kind of/how big a navy, air force, army?

  3. #43
    Human Enewald's Avatar
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    Conquer Polish warehouses!

  4. #44
    Private Fontan's Avatar
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    An interesting idea, although a bit exotic, given the game's scenery. I just caught up with your Império Novo AAR, after stopping on the last update you put on the index (too lazy to look for them in the thread, decided to do so today). This will certainly prove to be just as entertaining, I hope.

    And it may be what I need to convince me to get Semper Fi.

  5. #45
    Strategy GuidAAR Rensslaer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallongren View Post
    Fortunetly you could always make the anschluss happen through diplomatic methods, even though it might generate some amount of threat (?) it would fit well with both expansion and the peace oriented role-playing (since you then, I assume, more or less let the Austrians decide)
    Yes, it's that little bit of Threat that gives me pause -- you never know what little bit will push them over the edge. You'll see how I resolve that. Welcome, Hallongren! Glad to have you along!

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBromgrev View Post
    The Chinese theater is my work, so here are the answers to your comments about it
    Thanks, TheBromgrev, for your work on that! I can't specifically critique the borders you chose for China, because I don't know what each warlord had. From my own research for Fire Warms, I know Japan had invaded Tsingtao (the Japanese enclave you show south of Manchkuo, I assume), and that General Feng held Peking and the surrounding area (which HOI 3 shows as Shanxi), but I don't know WHEN that was, and how it changed, and I'd lay odds that there's alot of confusion even among period historians as to what territory these warlords ACTUALLY held sway over in any given month, those records being subject to rival and conflicting claims, plus the devastation of records from wartime activities. Ick. I'm sure it doesn't matter to a great degree, one way or another, though grognards will bicker!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuyvesant View Post
    Given your 'peaceful' nature (ha!), what kind of force composition is your goal - what kind of/how big a navy, air force, army?
    Well, to be honest I'm roleplaying this as a government who doesn't intend to go to war, but who also wants to defend his country, etc. You will see a sort of British-style "muddling through" -- i.e. don't expect a great grand strategy to my production, or a specialization in any particular type of unit. My specific division-components will be discussed as we go, if there is any particular reason behind them. I'll tend to put artillery into just about anything I can, just because it's been my experience that artillery is a great force multiplier if it can keep up with the army it's with (hence the SP artillery is a priority). I do intend to create a largely mobile and mechanized (armoured) force, as the Germans did historically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald View Post
    Conquer Polish warehouses!
    I wonder if they would be more agreeable to that if I couched it cleverly as a choice -- "GIVE US DANZIG OR.... warehouses."

    Quote Originally Posted by Fontan View Post
    An interesting idea, although a bit exotic, given the game's scenery. I just caught up with your Império Novo AAR, after stopping on the last update you put on the index (too lazy to look for them in the thread, decided to do so today). This will certainly prove to be just as entertaining, I hope.

    And it may be what I need to convince me to get Semper Fi.
    Excellent! Thanks! Welcome, Fontan! I do hope you'll get it -- it seems to improve alot, and it's "where we're going" (i.e. it's the wave of the future! ). You know, I might try to update the Index for Imperio Novo today or soon....

    Sorry there's a little delay here -- I've run into a shortage of time. I'll get this updated as soon as I can! Thanks for watching and commenting!

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  6. #46
    Non sufficit orbis Lord E's Avatar
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    Supporting the nationalists and taking back Rhineland could be considered a little offensive. But on the other side I don’t think it is strange moves, I think these moves are kind of realistic, especially moving into Rhineland and taking back what is actually your land… I actually think the worst news in that update is a negative event against coal stockpiling, I can understand why these kind of penalties are included, but they are never nice to get. Still you are going to need that energy in the future so I guess you just have to live with the penalty and stockpile as much as possible…
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  7. #47
    This is a very interesting concept/approach. I'm terribly curious as to how it will play out in the long run. Also, you're doing a fantastic job of showing off the HPP mod. After reading this, I definitely have to check it out.

  8. #48
    Colonel Grunthex's Avatar
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  9. #49
    Strategy GuidAAR Rensslaer's Avatar
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    As a forward-looking, scientifically-minded, highly educated society, Germany is pushing research into high-tech fields such as aero/astronautics, radar and nuclear physics. In September 1936, we begin constructing our first rocket test platform along the Baltic Sea west of Rostock, so we can launch tests into the ocean where no one will get hurt from errant tests.



    We immediately begin further research into how rockets could be used to benefit the Reich. Theorists expect that within a few years we may have test versions of rocket planes and jet planes for defense, should such weapons ever be necessary. It’s expected, however, that they will never be usefully adapted for civilian transport, as the fuel usage is astronomical. Dr. Werner von Braun has an idea that we might be able to escape Earth’s orbit and explore into space, however.

    Now that the very expensive rocket platform is complete, we spread out our production lines to other priorities. Most everything we’re building right now is factories (there’s a huge number of IC under construction not shown – that red line is a gap which is mostly or entirely IC from our approximately 115-120 production IC). We want to get most of our factories well into production – they may drop in priority later, but whatever progress we can make now will profit us in the future even when other things distract us.



    The technology we’re researching is varied. Production and Efficiency of Production are high on our list, as is Education, Supply Production, Agriculture, etc. Many of these priorities are the same as would be recommended for a wartime buildup – Europe is still a very tense place, whether Germany intends to start any wars or not, and the USSR is of particular concern to many as a potential enemy in the future. We’re making up for lost time in building our economy and our ability to field a mechanized army.



    Notice these combat techs I’m achieving are modified in HPP – they benefit not just infantry, but also militia, garrison, cavalry, etc., because those groupings of research categories have been merged. Also notice I’m researching several of these things ahead of time, which is advisable for a country that wants to get ahead of its neighbors.

    In August, 1937, restive Japan sparks a conflict with Nationalist China, which was already in civil war with various internal warlords, and they begin fighting actively. Japan moves south from their bases near Manchuria, and along the coast.



    At around the same time, the Nationalists finally conclude their civil war with victory over the Republicans and Socialists. Our expeditionary force comes back having gained much experience in different military applications.

    We are actively seeking to build a supply of Crude Oil, just in case there is some sort of attack upon Germany. We produce so little internally, so without using force we have little option but to spend mightily in order to bring as much storage stockpile into the country as we can. By trading actively with the US and USSR (both of which buy our supplies), we can build up enough Money to buy the other things we need to build stockpiles of those, too. Early on, we made use of our tremendous surplus of Energy to trade away, but as we built more IC the surplus turned into a deficit, and we began trying to conserve our Energy too.



    Many of our Factories finish production in December, 1937 (our second round, in most cases), and our peacetime Industrial Capacity goes up to 206. Education increases our Leadership, which helps research. Plus we get radar!

    We immediately begin building radar components to place around our frontiers. This becomes something of a new priority for a while, sharing the production lines with our IC and some ships we figured we’d begin constructing now, because they’ll take a while to build – not something you can just snap your fingers and have when you need them. The air wings we’ve been building are in the same category. But as these military units near completion, we move them to the end of our queue. That way they’re mostly ready, but we don’t have to complete production until and unless we really need them. No threat is generated by incomplete production, even if it’s almost ready to be deployed.



    I look again at the Anschluss options presented by HPP. You can choose forced annexation or diplomatic. The difference being requirements and the amount of threat produced. Even Diplo-annexation would increase our Threat by 5 and reduce Britain and France’s neutrality by 3. I choose not to provoke. Too much is at stake – war could wreck our economic recovery.



    Even as we’re drawing much of Europe toward an anti-communist Axis, the Poles are giving us difficulty. Despite the fact that they feel increasingly threatened by Russia, they are resistant to joining with Germany in an alliance against her. She’s drawing closer to Germany politically and diplomatically, but there is serious resistance due to some Cores Germany holds upon territory formerly part of Imperial Germany. These territorial claims make them wary of us, so that when they drift too close, they start backing away.

    This is part of the HPP mod, and though it isn’t helpful to my plans – an alliance with Poland was one of my central goals – I don’t think it’s going to wreck anything if I can’t get it. The German guarantee of Poland will allow us to join if Poland is attacked.



    By February, 1938, Japan is making significant progress in pushing south into China, and in gaining control of the Chinese coastline. There are countries which sympathize with China, and are offering assistance, but nothing substantial. Shanxi (about where the red circle is – the geography is different in HPP) falls to Japan, and her remaining territory is claimed by China. As a symbolic rebuke of Japan, Germany refuses to trade with her and lays an economic embargo upon this most aggressive country. Not that that will do any good.

    Our quest to build economically while remaining meek enough to not draw negative Allied attention seems to be working. Both Britain and France are far more concerned about Japan than Germany, and they’re nowhere near to concerned enough about us to take action. Maybe I could have annexed Austria, but I don’t know how things might increase my perceived threat in the future – that 5 points of Threat might be the thing that causes the Allies to turn upon us. What if I have to arm myself against the Soviets? That would raise Threat, and then what would the Allies say?



    Our aircraft production technologies continue to improve. Again, like the infantry techs, these single-engine techs apply more broadly than equivalent techs in vanilla HOI/SF.

    Out of concern for that increasing threat from the hostile USSR (they trade with us, but we suspect they really have designs upon Germany or some of our neighbors), we apply our newly discovered techs in Medium Tank design to start building some Panzer divisions. These will be only 2 brigades at first. I’ll add self-propelled artillery once we have the technology for it (a little while, still), and may even throw in a motorized infantry brigade to get the combined arms bonus.



    Other priorities have caused us to move the warships to the end of the line – they’re not absolutely necessary for us right now, might be too little too late, in any case, and we still throw them into full production from time to time to keep them moving. But IC and these panzer divisions are important right now, as well as the radar stations.
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  10. #50
    Field Marshal TheBromgrev's Avatar
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    Not sure what you plan to use your ships for, but those four were historically designed as commerce raiders. I normally don't IC-whore, and build about 5 IC total pre-war in favor of building up my armed forces as quickly as possible. Since you're taking the time to prepare, it'll be interesting to see how that impacts your long-term strategy.

    Since you embargoed Japan, and it's May in your last screenshot, I'm assuming you didn't recognize Manchukuo and sided with China instead? Or did Japan not ask you yet? If you side with Japan, you will lose your rares SE, and China loses some leaders and its officer bonus. However, the side you don't support won't join the Axis, even if it meets all of the conditions. Since China doesn't seem to be doing well in your screens, if you side with them and invite them into the Axis, you'll likely have to send troops there yourself in order to help out, assuming you don't want Japan to win. Actually, that would make for a very interesting game, siding with China and declaring war on Japan before you deal with events in Europe... While unrealistic due to Germany's non-existent navy, I can't understate the amount of German private and public investments in China before von Ribbentrop convinced Hitler to side with Japan (Hitler didn't care one way or the other). Von Ribbentrop was mostly alone in the Foreign Ministry when it came to supporting Japan, as most diplomats thought China would win and be more friendly (and they were right).

    I don't think it would hurt you too much, from an in-game or RP perspective, to annex Austria through diplomacy. The historical version is the Anschluss by Force, so the diplomatic version represents the Austrians willingly and enthusiastically joining the Reich. That said, you'd still violate the terms of Versailles, but you've already done so by reoccupying the Rhineland. IMO, the benefits outweigh the penalties. The same applies to the Sudetenland, but only if you support the Czech NS party. If the Czech NS party has over 15% popularity, then you'll get a very low threat, low dissent, high MP gain Treaty of Munich. If you stop there, like Hitler promised, then that would fit the type of game you want to have while giving you the necessary benefits. However, having a popular NS party in Czechoslovakia is no guarantee that you'll get the best result, so keep that in mind when considering the option, although the chances of a willing transfer are much higher with a high popularity NS Czech party.

    That said, there are interesting benefits to grabbing as much land through diplomacy as you can, and stopping before the Danzig decision. Yes, you'll build threat and become an aggressor, but you can also wait until the Soviets attack Poland. The result will be you going to war against the Soviets, as well as the Allies going to war via the UK guarantee on Poland, given by the 1st Vienna Award. That means the Allies won't declare war on you (hopefully ), and will help you defend Poland against the Communists. This path doesn't fit with your intended play-style, but is still an option for a Germany that doesn't want to start an actual war.

    I'm not sure about the core issue pushing Poland away, Slan will need to help you with that. Germany shouldn't have Polish cores at all in your version, so I don't know what's pushing Poland away. The only way Germany could have Polish cores is if you already did the 1st Vienna Award and chose to give Slovakia to Hungary or annex the entire nation.

    Finally, ouch, those tanks are expensive. It would've been cheaper to build reserves, plus you wouldn't get the threat increase. Also, militia techs are handled via event (garrisons and cavalry share the same techs as infantry now). Militia normally get any leftover weapons the regular army didn't need. Therefore, militia weapons are exactly 1 level behind, and the only way to represent that is by event. Militia brigades gain the same bonuses from their weapon tech as the infantry do, but have lower base stats. As an example, let's say Small Arms gives a 0.5 soft attack bonus per level. When you research level 4 Small Arms, the next month your militia will get to level 3 Small Arms, and gain a bonus of 1.5 soft attack. I don't remember the exact values, but that's the idea.
    Last edited by TheBromgrev; 28-02-2011 at 00:51.
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  11. #51
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    Bot how do you get the corridor if not with brute force?

  12. #52
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    An interesting choice to decline the Anschluss - I thought you might go for the diplomatic option.

    As for the Far East, you already seem to have made a diplomatic choice to support China over Japan. Since Japan seems to be doing rather well and China could be defeated, is this situation important enough to warrant direct German intervention? I would say not. Diplomatic support? Yes. War? No.

  13. #53
    Mr. Fixit Slan's Avatar
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    Poland is pushed away because you have cores in Poland. I'm pretty sure it was not this way before, but recently the effect works both ways. It was removed from the later versions (1.9 and up) since being in the same faction allows you to give them the land peacefully, so that shouldn't make them worried, quite the contrary! Nice update by the way
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  14. #54
    Colonel WhisperingDeath's Avatar
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    Nice update. It is very interesting to read about a country vigorously eschewing the path of war while the world around it melts into chaos. I will enjoy this ride as an exercise in "practical politics." BTW - really like what I have seen of this mod - kudos to TheBromgrev & Slan!
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  15. #55
    Field Marshal naggy's Avatar
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    Doesn't threat degrade over time?

  16. #56
    Mr. Fixit Slan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by naggy View Post
    Doesn't threat degrade over time?
    To my knowledge, it doesn't...
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  17. #57
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    It's one of the things that make plausible post-war scenarios impossible. Pretty much every major country has extremely low neutrality and very high threat, which creates a mess out of diplomacy. Not to mention the fact that the AI can't disband parts of its army (or obsolete ships, or whatever) and the late-game performance is terrible. It's better in HPP than in HOI3 Vanilla, but still pretty much boring and flawed. HOI3 platform is simply poorly suited for such scenarios. Maybe it will get better with the next expansion.

  18. #58
    Mr. Fixit Slan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    Maybe it will get better with the next expansion.
    I doubt it. The focus is the Eastern Front, not the Cold War
    Sir NeoCore Slan, OLIR, beta of FtM, appointed judge of Alexspeed's Victoria 2 AAR Contest, Fan of the Week (22-11-2011) and I also play HoItCG.
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  19. #59
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slan View Post
    I doubt it. The focus is the Eastern Front, not the Cold War
    Right, just as Semper Fi was focused on the Pacific War Still, the new wargoals system has potential and we will see how it will work in practice.

  20. #60
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    thank goodness for a new update. I was starting to worry, but it was really worth the wait.
    HPP LibrAARian. PM me about any change in the status of your HPP AARs. http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...-Update-Thread
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