SubUltimate - The Firenze Submod

[Varning]

I'm curious why you gave the Ottomans an event to let them inherit the Ak Koyunlu?

Historically, the Ak Koyunlu conquered the Qara Koyunlu and then ruled Iran before being overthrown by the Safavids. While MMU doesn't really model this, I don't know if annexing them to the Ottos is a preferable alternative. I have two suggestions:

1) Reduce the cores of Qara Koyunlu to just the Azeri provinces, since the others had been conquered from the Timurids relatively recently. Reduce the MTTH for the "War Between Cousins" event that puts AKK and QAR at war from 240 months to 12 (otherwise it virtually never happens since it requires one of the parties be at high WE). Increase the bonus manpower AKK receives form the event as well. It also might be worthwhile to increase the chance the ai chooses the war option. Then, from the "Battle of $PROVINCENAME$" event, remove "set_country_flag = black_sheep_war" from the "Retreat and secure our base of power" option and increase the chance the ai will choose it. This usually results in a stronger AKK which takes large portions, if not the entirety, of QAR territory.

2) Alternatively, write an event so that if AKK successfully occupies QAR's capital, or drives it war exhaustion up enough, or even just occupies anything, it inherits QAR. This is what I do in my own modded MMU but it's pretty heavy-handed, though not particularly moreso than the Ottoman-Mamluk annexation.

While you're in Persia.txt, you might want to change it so Persia does not start out as a theocracy. I'ts pretty irritating to see.

[CJL78]

I'm curious why you gave the Ottomans an event to let them inherit the Ak Koyunlu?

Historically, the Ak Koyunlu conquered the Qara Koyunlu and then ruled Iran before being overthrown by the Safavids. While MMU doesn't really model this, I don't know if annexing them to the Ottos is a preferable alternative.

Yes I know, but in my games, AKK starts with great relations with the Ottos and they never go to war. Often times AKK completely screws up Ottos eastern front, taking Georgian provinces. Don't see it as "inheriting" per se, it's like the events for Karaman and Dulkadir, it's to be viewed as the AI Ottomans gobbling up AKK.

From the games I've played with and without it, I find it a very preferable alternative, and it strengthens Ottos by giving them three good provinces that they historically owned, one of which is Turkish and (now) a core. Play a game with it and tell me what you think.

[Sikker]

While I understand your motivations for letting OE gobble up AK, I personally would prefer if they did not. Simply because AK was an important player in the area at the time. As Varning says, their historical importance in being the basis for Persia is simply to great for such an auto-fate. If anything AK should be encouraged to go the historical route, and after that is done, the OE can be coded to take their provinces in a war or something. But please, do not kill off AK that cheaply.

[Rabid]

Either I have a bad install or 1.1 lacks some graphical assets, so far I've noticed religion icons and the option menu background as being missing.

[CJL78]

While I understand your motivations for letting OE gobble up AK, I personally would prefer if they did not. Simply because AK was an important player in the area at the time. As Varning says, their historical importance in being the basis for Persia is simply to great for such an auto-fate. If anything AK should be encouraged to go the historical route, and after that is done, the OE can be coded to take their provinces in a war or something. But please, do not kill off AK that cheaply.

I'm not a fan of the concept being needed myself, but it's the best solution (IMO) that I've found so far.

Part of the problem is the game is inherently set up to model sedentary, civilized governments and this doesn't work well in many areas like this even with MM's changes. In-game, Ak Koyunlu is a weak minor and rarely accomplishes much, particularly against Qara Koyunlu. I don't think Varning's ideas will do much without giving some more troops and bonuses to AKK, because Qara is much more powerful.

I'll try to look into it more and read up more on the historical Ak Koyunlu/Qara conflict for some more ideas on trying to influence them elsewhere (EDIT: added to my ideas list) but as it stands I consider Ottoman development a much higher priority than Ak Koyunlu and even Persia.

Either I have a bad install or 1.1 lacks some graphical assets, so far I've noticed religion icons and the option menu background as being missing.

1.1 has 24 downloads so far, so unless someone else reports a problem I'm assuming something didn't download or extract properly. Delete it, download, and extract again and let me know if it still isn't working.

[Rabid]

A quick suggestion - you could expand the 'holy war of expansion' CB with full BB cost to apply to the Muslim-Hindu conflict in India, much like the OE the states there were fairly tolerant but were also aggressive against their religious enemies. It would also be nice to give Hindus some kind of CB against the Muslims occupying Hindu land as IIRC Hindu states are usually excluded from Holy War CBs entirely. So basically it would work like the "european vs. north african" setup you added already but would apply to religious group conflicts between states with their capitals in India (this plays really nicely with the Mughals, they will only turn to India after they move their capital!)

On another note there's a few in-game map regions that could do with some tweaks. Trent being classed as part of Italy is one of the major ones, since it prevents Austria from being eligible for the "Italian Ambition" mission which they otherwise are able to acquire. A huge chunk of north India isn't classed as part of India. There's probably other bugs / peculiarities with regions but those are the ones I remember best.

I also don't seem to have fixed my graphics bug after doing a fresh download and install, do I need to have MMU installed for your mod to work? I deleted it because I assumed that the submod downloadable contained all the files needed for the mod to work.

indian_region = {
	503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544
	545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 575 576 577 578
	1821 1822 1823 1824 1825
}

Thought I'd fix this just for personal use, so copied here if you want to use it. Just needs to be added into the regions file instead of the existing indian_region

This region represents more or less the modern combined territory of India, Pakistan, Nepal and Bangladesh.

[boies00]

I also don't seem to have fixed my graphics bug after doing a fresh download and install, do I need to have MMU installed for your mod to work? I deleted it because I assumed that the submod downloadable contained all the files needed for the mod to work.

I haven't yet installed the mod myself, but I guess the problem comes that you don't have MMU installed. The GFX files haven't been edited and the links to the particular graphics that the mod uses still point to the MMU mod directory.

Open domesticpanel.gfx, mapitems.gfx, menubar.gfx and provincepanel.gfx (in the interface subdirectory) with notepad and replace every instance of

mod\\MagnaMundi Ultimate\\gfx\\interface\\

with

mod\\SubUltimate - Firenze Submod v1.1 (MMU 1.26)\\gfx\\interface\\

That should solve your issues.

[Urza]

Concerning Ak Koyunlu, there are events in Magna Mundi to let them gain provinces in Azerbaijan and Persia, I think triggering if they manage to fight a successful war against Qara Koyunlu and occupy a certain amount of land. I have seen AI AKK succeed with this a few times in MMP2, although it doesn't happen often.

[Rabid]

I haven't yet installed the mod myself, but I guess the problem comes that you don't have MMU installed. The GFX files haven't been edited and the links to the particular graphics that the mod uses still point to the MMU mod directory.

Open domesticpanel.gfx, mapitems.gfx, menubar.gfx and provincepanel.gfx (in the interface subdirectory) with notepad and replace every instance of

mod\\MagnaMundi Ultimate\\gfx\\interface\\

with

mod\\SubUltimate - Firenze Submod v1.1 (MMU 1.26)\\gfx\\interface\\

That should solve your issues.

Worked great, thanks

[CJL78]

I haven't yet installed the mod myself, but I guess the problem comes that you don't have MMU installed. The GFX files haven't been edited and the links to the particular graphics that the mod uses still point to the MMU mod directory.

Open domesticpanel.gfx, mapitems.gfx, menubar.gfx and provincepanel.gfx (in the interface subdirectory) with notepad and replace every instance of

mod\\MagnaMundi Ultimate\\gfx\\interface\\

with

mod\\SubUltimate - Firenze Submod v1.1 (MMU 1.26)\\gfx\\interface\\

That should solve your issues.

Hmm... thanks boies00, I was not aware of this. I'll make a note in the OP, and fix it for the next version.

[Rabid]

Thought I'd point out this bug and fix, the bug almost totally breaks the jewish settlement system and the fix just needs to be copy-pasted into SRI_Jewish_events.txt to replace the trigger of the broken event..

[CJL78]

Thought I'd point out this bug and fix, the bug almost totally breaks the jewish settlement system and the fix just needs to be copy-pasted into SRI_Jewish_events.txt to replace the trigger of the broken event..

Great thanks, I'll definitely include that in next version.

As for the regions, I haven't actually ever played in India (yet, I want to do Delhi sometime) so I'd have to look at why the indian_region is what it is: since regions are used for events and mission parameters, perhaps it has some purpose?

[jhanso]

Could i suggest adding a muscovite core on the capital of sibir (tobolsk?), or add it to the cores russia receives when the nation is formed. This would be to help russia start colonising the steppes, which i have never seen them do and also maybe a colonial fort from the start of the game in solikamsk so that the ai doesnt lose the province as much.

[Dawkins]

Thought I'd point out this bug and fix, the bug almost totally breaks the jewish settlement system and the fix just needs to be copy-pasted into SRI_Jewish_events.txt to replace the trigger of the broken event..

I've been using this fix for 5 or 6 games and I think it goes way too far the other way. I always end up with jewish settlements in every province I own - a bit too powerful I think. I would definitely support including it, but would suggest significantly toning it down.

[Dawkins]

It would be nice to remove the "change of fortunes" bug:

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...1#post11909943

[Rabid]

I've been using this fix for 5 or 6 games and I think it goes way too far the other way. I always end up with jewish settlements in every province I own - a bit too powerful I think. I would definitely support including it, but would suggest significantly toning it down.

This is exactly how it's always worked pre-MMU, if you're going to 'tone it down' then you're changing away from the original design. It just happens that the AI seems to generally not be very nice towards the Jews, so there's usually tons of refugees looking for places to live. If you're a large, tolerant power then you tend to resettle tens or even hundreds of thousands of Jews through the entire duration of the game.

I do think that something should be done about Poland/Bohemia having such conflicted NIs at the game start, the player can renege the past and choose to be tolerant or intolerant but the AI doesn't have the intelligence to make those kinds of decisions and, especially for Poland, it causes some problems when you consider that historically they were the state closest to being a haven for Jews and heretical christians in spite of being Catholic.

[Meothar]

I will download this soon. Almost didn't notice this submod, The Holy See AAR pointed me to it.

[Dawkins]

This is exactly how it's always worked pre-MMU, if you're going to 'tone it down' then you're changing away from the original design. It just happens that the AI seems to generally not be very nice towards the Jews, so there's usually tons of refugees looking for places to live. If you're a large, tolerant power then you tend to resettle tens or even hundreds of thousands of Jews through the entire duration of the game.

That's not my memory of MMP. Even if it is how it used to work, I don't think isn't realistic to have jewish communities contributing on average 25% of the tax in every province in say, persia.

[CJL78]

Whew, I'm glad I'm not a dev for a real game because I can barely keep up with the suggestions for this little submod. Thanks for all the interest and suggestions!

As for Russian eastward expansion, I have seen Russia expand to the Pacific coast and I have seen it stall and not penetrate much into central Asia either. As far as I'm concerned, Russian expansion east should not be inevitable, though I'd like to see it happen a bit more often and successful than it does. Currently, I don't think there's much I can do in the way of cores, it gets tons of them already and it's just a matter of the AI being successful enough to take them. I personally think that part of the problem is the way the central Asian "hordes" are modeled in-game, kind of like in Persia, the game is just not set up to model them very realistically because any war by Russia on a Muslim horde ends up being a war against all of them because they guarantee and ally with each other, and the Russian AI gets mobbed. This is especially the case when I've seen Russia copmletely fail to expand is when this happens and then they also get in a war with Poland and/or Sweden at the same time. If I could, I would take away tribals govts' ability to guarantee, but as far as I know that's not possible. Please let me know if it is!

As for the Jewish settlement fix, I will not implement the fix without looking it at closer, but I will say that IMO a tolerant state that invites Jewish refugees ought to have one in every or almost every province. RL Poland, in game terms, would have them in every province. While historically Persia would not, if you create a more tolerant Persia then I see no reason why that would be unrealistic. Maybe there should be an increase in stability penalties for having Jews since the player, unlike real life leaders of the time period, appreciate the benefit of Jews and aren't afraid/racist/biased against Jews? Or are tolerant AIs kicking their Jews out? if so, that should be fixed

Along with that, I have decided I will switch Poland's NIs: CAD to HT.

As for Changing of Fortunes, did ubik or another MM dev ever respond to that or did you pm them and what did they say? I'm not entirely sure it's a bug, per se, because it's supposed to represent the decline of those states' trading power with the discovery of the trade route around Africa (but since east-west trade is not really modeled - at all - it's hard to model this any other way). I think the idea is the modifier should stay unless - in VEN and GEN's case - they switch govs and get the trade agreement. In any case, I'll have to investigate this more.

Ok, thanks for all the suggestion and comments, I will try to include as many things as I can in the next update, ETA: unknown, I'm kind of busy atm but hopefully by next weekend (no promises though)

Ideas list (3rd post) updated. Keep em coming.

I will download this soon. Almost didn't notice this submod, The Holy See AAR pointed me to it.

Was gabor promoting it? I hadn't noticed. In any case, thanks!

[CJL78]

From a few short games with the Spice Trade War CB added, Ottomans have used it in every game by 1510, though they peace out for several provinces before occupying Cairo and triggering the event to annex Mamluks.

I'm interested in anybody's feedback on this or any other change/issue from playing the submod, please let me know what you think!

I've been super busy and used most of my free time to play, but I can say Monday night I will have a new version with at least Poland HT, some kind of fix to Jewish settlement, and an edit of the Knights spawning event to make them appear in Malta unless no Catholic has it, possibly more changes as well depending on feedback

Also, I updated my changelog to include the Macau port map fix that I added a long time ago