Issues with H&H

[The Farseer]

I was one of the first immigrants into H&H (Jorb and Loftar's former game), and I just felt like posting the issues with H&H that I really hope these guys don't end up dragging into Salem.

1. Massive grind. The primary trouble with H&H was that it was a massive grindfest with permadeath and open PvP enabled. This was due to the lack of skill or ability caps, which meant progression was infinite. This caused a bunch of other problems that I may talk about later.

The massive grind WAS useful for discouraging players from fighting from one another (what's the point when the risks are so massive?), but it also meant that both griefing and using alt accounts to attack your enemy were far too good as tactics. Just create a few noob characters, grind upto the murdering skills and go and slaughter enemies with your disposable characters.

2. No skill caps. This discouraged both grouping with other players and specialisation. What's the point in being specialised when you can get to a level in one skill and use your ability points in that skill in all others?

3. No diminishing returns from abilities / skills. This meant a massive divide between new players and oldbies, which is never a good thing in open PvP scenarios. Was resolved slightly with resets over maps, but that didn't really sort the problem out.

That's pretty much it. Keep in mind these are major problems that need to be resolved before this game gets even out of the design stage, though.

Any comments?

EDIT: I played about a year back, so everything might have changed by now.

[Shams]

I'd be very interested in your take if you replayed the game today and re-examined those things.

/s

[The Farseer]

I'd be very interested in your take if you replayed the game today and re-examined those things.

Well, they were fundamental design elements so, unless they did FINALLY implement the Wyrd system they were always talking about (and browsing the Announcements, it doesn't look like they did), I doubt it's changed overly much.

Unless you're being rhetorical and you're saying, "Examine it, these things have changed". Have they changed?

[Rilder]

Yeah I do hope they don't drag in the grind from H&H and no level caps just seems like a bad idea and encourages cheating(with macros and stuff).

[safferli]

Speaking as an economist, not having diminishing returns is always a bad idea.

[Onionfighter]

Besides the increasing cost of skill improvements, combat skills in H&H are now effective based on a square root curve. This makes groups of fighters much more important because two people of equal fighting skill could probably beat on person with double the skill points..

[Al. I. Cuza]

Anyone here actually playing actively?

The only problem I see with the game is the fact that new players are for a long time practically useless in villages in comparison with the more experienced players.

[nomotog]

Anyone here actually playing actively?

The only problem I see with the game is the fact that new players are for a long time practically useless in villages in comparison with the more experienced players.

I played for a ittle it, but I was completly lost on what I was to do. Lets hope salem is easer on starting out.

[Onionfighter]

Anyone here actually playing actively?

The only problem I see with the game is the fact that new players are for a long time practically useless in villages in comparison with the more experienced players.

I play. This is still a problem. There are some objects that are required in bulk, and skill levels don't matter, and making these are good activities for new players, but there needs to be more stuff like this. In our village everyone has their own place where they can do whatever interests them there, so the fact that their characters stats and skills are low doesn't really matter. Where this really comes in to play, however, is trade. Villages full of new players really have little to offer an established vilalge.

[_Roh_]

I really agree with a cap on skills to keep things in perspective. And honestly I would like to see a cap that means one person can't eventually do EVERYTHING. I mean I like to play a hermit but still would like it if I had to go into villages and trade for things.

I think something that would do wonders for Salem though would be requiring a credit card to make an account. God I pray that it doesnt also end up being for an unbalancing item mall... But if a credit card is required to make an account and each account has limited characters... Well this keeps alts under control. One person shouldn't be able to get around limits designed to encourage interaction with mass alts.

Thems my thoughts.

[Keyalha]

having to trade kills off this game quicker than you can think, sorry but in many years of h&h i played i saw about 1 player per MONTH in average so if something similar with a need for trade happens in Salem it kills the game quicker than you can think! And Credit Cards? that would mean you loose a lot of potential customers as CC is totally uncommon in europe most euro countrys dont use em. Sorry Roh but most stuff you mentioned there is plain said BAD read SUPER BAD ( no offence meant ).

Edit: I altho think there should be some sort of Restrictions on Accounts as alt spamming is a pretty bad thing in H&H but cutting off potential Customers via CC is just the wrong way to do so.

[_Roh_]

Well credit cards was just an example. It could be a valid paypal account. Something. You all cant be doing everything by cash. I dont care how assbackward your country may be. Your not going to get me to believe your using the barter system and paying for your internet access with sheep. The point is as you agreed account restriction to limit alts.

As for trade being a bad thing... I seriously doubt that the goal of the developers of H&H was to have it so that every person was totally alone. Seeing only one person per month. If so they could have just put this out as a SP sandbox and saved their self the trouble of hosting a server. The point of limiting the types of skills being taken would be to FORCE people to trade. And when they understand they HAVE to trade or they are going to be screwed people will find a way to make it work. Sort of like in real life. Most people cant be a one man society. They need help to get by. Provide the things they can't manage to produce for lack of time/materials/knowhow.

[Keyalha]

First off its not valid to insult me or my Country because even in your country there are laws against racism so STOP IT! And btw Europe is not a Country you should look that up in your map its a whole continent *cough cough* And as of this ill stop discussing with you any more i dont need any racist remarks...

[Romtos]

Well credit cards was just an example. It could be a valid paypal account. Something. You all cant be doing everything by cash. I dont care how assbackward your country may be. Your not going to get me to believe your using the barter system and paying for your internet access with sheep. The point is as you agreed account restriction to limit alts.

Actually, in the Netherlands we have a system called iDeal. IMHO, it's not worse than paypal, and certainly better than credit card. It functions by basically making it an on-line in-store ATM transaction, if you follow what I mean. It's quick, secure and works for any Dutch bank. It's the most used system in the Netherlands and GamersGate and Steam use it as well to facilitate Dutch customers. I'm just saying there are systems better than the ones you named, and a country doesn't need to be 'backward' to use a different system.

[_Roh_]

The way Keyalha responded to my initial comment made it seem to me like I was supposed to believe that authentication through payment methods was just ridiculous idea. As if for some reason her country wouldn't have been able to accommodate that. I never mentioned Europe in my response... I don't know where the idea that I called the entire region of Europe a country came from. I never mentioned any country specifically other then to refer to Kayalha's country. Which I'm not even aware of.

And Keyalha.. Even if you were right... It wouldn't be racism. Not unless your country only allows ONE race to live in it's borders. Best I could narrow down what you imagine to have happened would be bigotry based on nation of residence? I mean not only do I not know where you live I don't even know if you were born there... You could be a freakin alien from another planet for all I know... So don't try to claim I'm being "racist".

As for specific methods of payment? There are a LOT of countries around the world... I don't do any international business... I can only use those I am familiar with as an example. If that causes some confusion folks could as for clarification instead of declaring it "plain said BAD read SUPER BAD ( no offence meant )" idea and not bothering to give much of an explanation as to why. Like Im not going to take offense to that...

[Keyalha]

Well i gave you an explanation which you reffered to as in a GET A Credit card like my country does.
I clearly statet i am fully for any type of validation via any payment method just dont put it on CC alone as this is a kill off valid paypal acc is as stated a wonderful idea as paypal is available in a broad range of countries!

For your racism comment if you say "how assbackward your country may be." this is clearly an insult against the country i origin from ( Austria ) or the Country i live in ( Germany ), as it states any country not using CC is "assbackward" which is just not the case. You are for me clearly offending there thats what hit my spot.

I btw also dont do any international business besides sometimes shop online in smaller native countries but still i know of many payment systems besides CC.

As for trade i second my opinion simply by what is happening at H&H already trade is practically non existent due to the pvp nature forcing it will kill the game before it it even got startet, most trade happening in H&H is happening between military allies, practically killing off any trade else as no one takes the risk of loosing valuables against a possible small profit, regional resources even made things worse.

[_Roh_]

Okay, see maybe this is my mistake with English or the fact that it is a second language for you. The "may be" portion is the key to that. May be is completely different then IS. May be means its possible that your country is assbackward. I didn't know. My statement was I dont believe your country could be assbackward enough not to support some sort of digital payment method.

Yes I am aware of other digital payment methods beyond credit cards. NO I am not aware of... well most cultural differences between my country and yours. Financial, social, or otherwise. I had no idea that any but the most under developed.. actually to be honest I'm surprised that ALL countries don't have some form of credit system. Didn't know some don't.

[Keyalha]

It might be that English is only my Second Language ( if you take it hard even the third ) It was by no mens meant that i offend you if i did so i appologize for that.

As i said in Europe Credit Cards are there but per example in germany only around 6% even have one as its heavily bound on how much income you have if you even get one from your bank its not as loosley tied like it is in the US or Canda or even many sout american countrys where its main method of payment for many people. Most money transactions around here still use some sort of wired money or direct bank transfers or use internet systems like paypal or something similar. I actually thank you for clearing that up +rep for you.

Brining the Topic back to salem, any news on Salem latley?

[_Roh_]

Ah, its almost hard to live in the US without credit cards. I think Germany has the smarter idea though. And Ive been looking but seen nothing. Not even a vague response to my question about the pricing scheme for the game.

Again back to the topic. I think I would enjoy seeing seasons in the game. I have ideas but I don't want to spit them all out there just to be ragged on so I'll keep it brief. Each season could last a week and have different effects. Ups and downs that are a reflection of the real seasons in the real world Salem. Would also like to see a weather system tied into it. Snowy harsh winters. Rainy springs. Bright summers... Brown fall. You get the general idea. Or maybe if you don't ask questions. Make comments.

EDIT: LOL Forgot which thread I was in. Sorry about that. Feel free to quote and copy over into the other idea thread. x.x

[Keyalha]

Yeah as far as offical statment goes in terms of pricing my knowledge is: " nothing is official yet ".

Seasons would be neat and the falling leaves in one of the dev showoff videos linked in the sticky it might be already in or might only be eyecandy.
Ryzom had a very neat sesons system where each season was like 2 and a half weeks ( if i remember correct ) of RL time and certain crafting materials where only available then, also mobs reacted to the seasons , like moving in to warmer climate if possible or herding more in Winter and stray more in summer and spring.