Sudden Carnage - A CptEasy multiplayer AAR

[KomodoWaran]

• Axis players can play all Axis countries. Allied/Commie players can play all Allied/Commie countries and Nat China. Allied/Commie players are allowed to play CAN even if it’s not allied. Allied/Commie players are allowed to play USA in 1941.

What happens if Allies/Commies jointly crush the Axis?
I think they should then try to find out which ideology is superior by having a nice hot war.

[reis91]

What happens if Allies/Commies jointly crush the Axis?
I think they should then try to find out which ideology is superior by having a nice hot war.

Even if Commies push all the way up to France, they could not withstand the fury of the Allies. They would probably survive till '48, but they just can't win.

[Dáin]

Hm, one of the many reasons why the Axis did so well in the last game was the much too quick collapse of Nat China, which left Japan free to do whatever it wanted.
I think for the next game you definitely should consider buffing China, if you are already preparing a MP mod anyway. At the very least they should have more leadership, so that their army is actually in fighting shape, and another option would be reduced infra to get the Japanese into supply troubles. That way, an Allied player could make a difference there.

[Baltasar]

More leadership works in favor of Japan once Nat China is beaten. How about increasing their officer ratio and giving them an additional tech level in militia small arms and may be a land tech level too?

[Traks]

Yes, last option is more sound.
With 2.04c Nationalist China lasts slightly longer than usual
So giving them high starting officer amount, militia upgrade and maybe 10-20 militia divisions should do the trick
Later you can rebalance it as needed

[AUSTERLITZ]

"Even if Commies push all the way up to France, they could not withstand the fury of the Allies. They would probably survive till '48, but they just can't win."

I assume this is a joke?
there is no winning a land war in europe vs the red army after it has beaten the germans and taken germany save nukes.With ur puny MP as usa and british compared to soviet,u'll attrite to death a whole lot faster than the germans.At that point in land forces soviets will have about 3:1 superiority over aliies and enormous MP.

[reis91]

"Even if Commies push all the way up to France, they could not withstand the fury of the Allies. They would probably survive till '48, but they just can't win."

I assume this is a joke?
there is no winning a land war in europe vs the red army after it has beaten the germans and taken germany save nukes.With ur puny MP as usa and british compared to soviet,u'll attrite to death a whole lot faster than the germans.At that point in land forces soviets will have about 3:1 superiority over aliies and enormous MP.

Yes, and where's the Soviet Navy, capable of beating USA and UK navies? And USA may have conquered China, to get himself the MP, but it doesn't matter, it's a stalemate.

[Dáin]

More leadership works in favor of Japan once Nat China is beaten. How about increasing their officer ratio and giving them an additional tech level in militia small arms and may be a land tech level too?

Hm, I haven't played HoI3 often enough to know the best solution. But wouldn't Nat China inevitably collapse due to officer attrition if leadership gain isn't increased, no matter the officer ratio they start with? Perhaps they should get improved leadership techs then.

[Traks]

I am fine with Japan winning, but that should come at serious cost.
On other hand, China should not be unbeatable.
Improved leadership could help a little, but AI squanders it.
Increased officer amount at start of scenario will slowly decrease due to unit builds and casualties in combat, but AI can't do anything wrong there

[CptEasy]

In the modd we're working with now, we have added some divisions to China and Guanxi Clique in the start up. Then we would like to create an event so China would get some extra divisions when their surrender process is 50% or more. Its just to make it slower to finally beat them but without making them too good at the start. We're not finished with that though. I kind of like them having low officer ratio... but I don't like them to lose so fast, of course.

[KomodoWaran]

Yes, and where's the Soviet Navy, capable of beating USA and UK navies? And USA may have conquered China, to get himself the MP, but it doesn't matter, it's a stalemate.

Sounds like a fair fight then. Good.

[Dáin]

In the modd we're working with now, we have added some divisions to China and Guanxi Clique in the start up. Then we would like to create an event so China would get some extra divisions when their surrender process is 50% or more. Its just to make it slower to finally beat them but without making them too good at the start. We're not finished with that though. I kind of like them having low officer ratio... but I don't like them to lose so fast, of course.

I've never actually played China or any other minor country with leadership shortages, so I may be completely wrong here. But based on what I observed when playing against countries that had apparently run out of leadership, just giving them new divisions won't solve the issue.
I had the impression that an insufficient officer ratio in itself quickly leads to the complete collapse of that country's army. If the officer ratio falls under a certain value, China's divisions would just start falling apart after a few hours of combat, constantly retreating and shattering. Even if Nat China hasn't lost a single unit until that point, its whole army thereby becomes essentially worthless. Adding more divisions couldn't solve the problem since they would suffer from the same officer shortage. It might even worsen the problem since it only increases the leadership demand.

Sorry if I bring this up again, I don't know HoI3 well enough to be certain that what I'm trying to say is even correct, so I will shut up now.

[reis91]

No, you're pretty much right. Besides being sort of gamey, popping units out of thin air will not make it any easier for China.

In the newest beta (2.04c), there was an important change which should help Nat Chi (and many other countries). Org regain is 25% faster when on low org, and 25% slower when in high org.

[Traks]

It helps already, China in last test game fell in around 2 years instead of normal 1 year.
Some more boost - as human is more evil than AI and National China can stand a little longer.
Does anybody remembers how big bonus was in HOI2? I think it was non-linear, but 25% may be a little too low.

[Cybvep]

I don't think that NatChi should get a big LP boost. They shouldn't lack MP, but they should lack LP. It's realistic. China should be capable on defence - their offensive capability should be limited, as it historically was. It's especially true for fighting in harsh terrain. They should build high-MP, low-LP units (militia, garrisons) and only some INF. The AI should get an artificial boost through strategic effects and decisions if you don't want to bother with extensive rebalancing.

Keep in mind that after China loses Nanjing, it's usually over, because it loses all its supplies and resources. It's a stupid rule, but you can't change it - only PI can. IMO they should get a decision after their capital fall that would give them some resources, supplies, territorial pride and ORG bonuses etc. Moreover, the AI should get some help after they lose x% of their core territory. Otherwise, they have no chance, especially in current more-or-less Vanilla setup.

[CptEasy]

First of all – thanks for all appreciating comments. Means a lot to me. I’ll do my best to give you some proper dusty, gunpowder-smelling, steel-busting action.

Secondly, I have tried to limit my answers to some of the direct comments as it would become a story in itself to answer all of you.

Damn, wanted to see you playing Japan, but with the no-rebasing of fleets it might get boring, while USA does not enter the war. Italy would be a challenge, to know what they suffered against you with their crappy commanders and low leadership.

Stay calm, Reis. This will not be the last AAR

Bound by honor? Are you kidding me?

No. Some things are hard to HR properly so we just have trust each other on this one. And needless to say, the language have to be grandiose when dealing with this kind of grand issues

GER may lend ITA 2 divisions. Player countries cannot lend each other troops in any other way. But why?

Why not simply turn the automatic convoy management on?


If the Allies will be allowed to play as Nationalist China, it may be interesting

It’s simply as we had a ban on lending troops before – so now we wanted to open up this field carefully. In the modd, this is likely to change alltogeather.

No, automatic convoy would have killed me/UK in the last game. I had to prioritize down to a few convoy routes, choosing carefully which to guard heavily and which to shut down when raiding was at the worst. You gotta leave the player with some flexibility here but still HR against exploits.

We wont play Nat China anymore as we will fast forward through 38 and early 39. Instead, the Allies get to prepare Poland a little better.

Does this mean that in your previous AAR axis would have had to secure a port in south africa and possibly one more at the coast of west africa to move JAP fleet to the med? And been forced to hold on to Sri Lanka etc.. hmm sounds more fair. If so the scheme Axis pulled in "Jolly Carnage" would still have been possible but less sneaky and require more planning?

Exactly. It is still possible but need a lot more hard work from the Axis side – and is likely to take a lot more time. I think that’s fair.

But once more - most of MP games are decided long before USA could bring into battle their might. So there should be mechanism for more historical gameflow (France in 1940, SU in 1941) or there should be mechanism for faster pulling of USA, as USA is half of Allied victory.

In the modd we’re working at we have discussed, except making life a lot harder for Axis, to give them some “goodies” if they stick to the “historical” time table. One such goodie could be an increase in US neutrality… but there might be something more suitable as well. We’re not finished by a long shot.

But i must say the no reserves rule is crap.

Hehe… Why? I think the reserve rule, as it works in HoI, is crap. In reality it takes so long time to call in the reserves, arm them and get them organized. They are also bound to have lost some skills as they have been away from the military since boot camp. This is not all reflected in HoI which makes reserves too good, IMO.

Sudden Carnage... I wonder what that might say about your strategy Cpt. Easy...

Good call, there. Or to use a suitable movie title – “There will be blood”.

I've never actually played China or any other minor country with leadership shortages, so I may be completely wrong here. But based on what I observed when playing against countries that had apparently run out of leadership, just giving them new divisions won't solve the issue.

Good point, Dain. We will take that into consideration.

I don't think that NatChi should get a big LP boost. They shouldn't lack MP, but they should lack LP. It's realistic. China should be capable on defence - their offensive capability should be limited, as it historically was. It's especially true for fighting in harsh terrain. They should build high-MP, low-LP units (militia, garrisons) and only some INF. The AI should get an artificial boost through strategic effects and decisions if you don't want to bother with extensive rebalancing.

Sounds fair to me. Might be a suitable solution. Still, it doesn’t solve the fact that it would be nice to give China a boost half way in, to avoid making them too good early but make certain they last a little longer – giving japan a headache well into 1940. If new divisions is not the best solution, what would (that can be easily modded)?

………………..

Things have progressed. The AAR is written to early October -39 so I guess I can start post soon. It’s just that the first months will go pretty fast (the carnage is not THAT sudden). We have a game-session tonight and after my re-installment of the game (due to multiple crashes) it has run perfect, so I think we can move on steadily – spilling blood. In that case, I will make a first post on Tuesday.

Cheers

[daphne]

Sounds fair to me. Might be a suitable solution. Still, it doesn’t solve the fact that it would be nice to give China a boost half way in, to avoid making them too good early but make certain they last a little longer – giving japan a headache well into 1940. If new divisions is not the best solution, what would (that can be easily modded)?

The new patch included something about differential org regain which might help CHI a lot. Last time I played them (in Years of Jolly Carnage) I had loads of troops but all were stuck at 0% org. Havn't tried the new patch yet though.

[Traks]

Maybe you would like to check on our multiplayer mod, which we are using for Monday game.
Yes, our sesion is also tonight so I suppose more information on Tuesday/Wednesday.

[CptEasy]

Maybe you would like to check on our multiplayer mod, which we are using for Monday game.
Yes, our sesion is also tonight so I suppose more information on Tuesday/Wednesday.

Yes, as far as I know, Maxyboy (responsible for our modding) has already been looking carefully on your mod. I reckon we'll have a few questions for you guys before we're finished.

[Baltasar]

Cpt.Easy: You still have to update your sig and check your mailbox :P