Child mortality

[RedRooster81]

Hmm... that would be event 999?
I better start messing around then

In my own game, I've set this event to a MTTH of 48 and a trigger

trigger = {
		condition = {
			type = not
			value = {
			  type = age value = 3
			  }
		}
	}

Setting the MTTH to 36 is really brutal, 48 makes it somewhat easier on the poor little creatures. Once children reach age 3, there's pretty much home free; some families are totally wiped out, allowing for fairly easy succession (there really should be depression events for parents who lose three children in a row); others are rather blessed with healthy children. The code gives an advantage to ruler's children, which pushes me to grant newlyweds of my dynasty their own counties as soon as possible.

[RedRooster81]

On the subject of child mortality, I thought that there should be some more interesting (but that is not to say more pleasant) pregnancy events. Doomdark has said that there will be twins. In CK1, pregnancy events included: stillborn, stillborn with mother's death, and then all those events where a bastard was born (always male) without knowledge being given of the pregnancy through a variety of events. As to twins, I never found any solid example in medieval and Renaissance Europe for a set of twins of noble birth in which both survived to adulthood. (Though that does not mean that it should not be in the game of course.) Some research should also be done on beliefs regarding multiple births among different classes and cultures. I bring to mind the Biblical story of Esau and Jacob, but twins need not be rivals for the throne; this should as all things depend on traits.

Now, what I was thinking was that there should be miscarriage events (not something some of you may want to model, but it happened of course), which could lead predictably to negative events for both partners, such as temporarily reduced fertility, depression, etc. The other thing, which irked me in CK1, was to have events in which the newborn survives but the mother does not. This seems reasonable. Twins and triplets should also put the mother more at risk for postpartum mortality I would think. Medical knowledge should also play some role in how childbirth is handled. Cordoba was a center of medicinal learning, as was Sicily, so that might matter.

Finally, I want females to have as good of a chance to appear as bastards as males. Biologically, it should be 50/50, of course.

[Mr. Capiatlist]

If anything, child mortality can also be a function of difficulty. Lower for you when on easier difficulties, more historical as you go up the levels. I am on the fence because I agree that there were way too many kids surviving childhood, but at the same time I recognize that having all of your potential heirs die in half of games might not be fun.

[Darkarbiter]

I think a compromise is needed. A realistic rate... but with the option to not display children that didn't live past 3.

[RedRooster81]

The problem as far as I can tell is what was the historical child mortality rate? There's been some speculation, but can one of our medievalist historians on the forum summarize the best historical data, on the upper class (not general population, though the difference might be slight)?

[DreadLindwyrm]

Finally, I want females to have as good of a chance to appear as bastards as males. Biologically, it should be 50/50, of course.

It should probably be 50/50 if the mother is in your court and unmarried. However, whether the father would choose to claim bastard daughters or not is a different matter. This would probably depend on if the kingdom's laws allow for the succession by women, and whether bastards are claimed should, in part depend on whether bastards can inherit in the kingdom, and if there are any legitimate heirs - possibly also how competent they are.

Of course, as I have said in other threads, claiming a married woman's child as your bastard should have serious implications for all persons involved - the husband gains "Cuckold" as a trait, the wife gains "Unfaithful" or "Adulterer", the putative father gains a similar trait, and the husband starts to dislike the father more, finally, if the claim is accepted, the child gains the "Bastard" trait. Everyone, with the possible exception of the husband, lose influence with the church, and the father and mother risk excommunication, with an alternate possibility of the wife/mother being sent to a nunnery for a period, or permanently.

[RedRooster81]

It should probably be 50/50 if the mother is in your court and unmarried. However, whether the father would choose to claim bastard daughters or not is a different matter. This would probably depend on if the kingdom's laws allow for the succession by women, and whether bastards are claimed should, in part depend on whether bastards can inherit in the kingdom, and if there are any legitimate heirs - possibly also how competent they are.

I agree to the general parameters that you suggest. A recognized illegitimate daughter was still the daughter of the king and could help seal diplomatic relations to subordinate kings or dukes. As a general point, I find it strange that all those affairs that you can have on campaign in CK1 result in sons, so at least in some cases you should be able to get illegitimate daughters. Of course, it all comes down to a recognition event, which I think I earlier suggested on the bastardy thread that you be allowed to reject, accept, or postpone recognition.

Maybe there should also be events (tying into your cuckoldry events) that allow you to hide the identity of the mother, or both parents, and have the child fostered by a vassal or relation (the big secret could later come out maybe); it was also not unknown to act as godfather to your own illegitimate child or otherwise do everything short of recognition. As you say, it should depend on the laws and customs of the kingdom or duchy. Some places were more accepting of illegitimate children, either because of frontier conditions (where illegitimacy, often across cultural and religious lines was more common); children were few (so any heir, no matter how questionable, was worth its weight in gold); and so on. I favor a sort of measure of civilization (like in EU Rome) or centrality concept, by which what was questionable in peripheral areas was unthinkable in the heart of Christendom (or Islam for that matter).

[Helvetesguten]

Some places were more accepting of illegitimate children, either because of frontier conditions (where illegitimacy, often across cultural and religious lines was more common); children were few (so any heir, no matter how questionable, was worth its weight in gold); and so on.

The high mortality rate (for sons at least, daughters seldom counted) in combination with "lax" morality from previous religions certainly seem to be the cause behind the more tolerant cultures (like the Norse and the Welsh, where (noble) sons were expected to inherit the father regardless of the mother's status).
Also, at least in the case of the Norse, having concubines (frilles) and/or several wifes was legal well into the 14 century.

Notable examples: Harald Hardråda (himself the half-brother of king Olav the Fat) had two official wifes, king Magnus Barefoot had only sons from out of wedlock, three of which inherited the throne directly and a fourth who inherited them again (together with his half-nephew, causing a civil war).

[Cikomyr]

While we are on the topic of having bastards, I remember events in CK1 where your wife might be unfaithful to you. If I remember right, it's possible that said wife have an offspring that isn't yours.

Well, I'd be curious to know if you, as a Lord, can seduce other men's wife and accidently have.. err.. illegitimate heirs.

(might be a good way to punish a previously desobedient vassal: relocate her wife to your court as hostage/office holder, and have her have a child, for pure humiliation, MWAHAHAHA)

[RedRooster81]

While we are on the topic of having bastards, I remember events in CK1 where your wife might be unfaithful to you. If I remember right, it's possible that said wife have an offspring that isn't yours.

Well, I'd be curious to know if you, as a Lord, can seduce other men's wife and accidently have.. err.. illegitimate heirs.

(might be a good way to punish a previously desobedient vassal: relocate her wife to your court as hostage/office holder, and have her have a child, for pure humiliation, MWAHAHAHA)

On that topic, I think that the CK1 spymaster's role in uncovering these affairs was all backwards. He or she should have been covering your back instead of losing all loyalty to you for refusing to admit that your darling heir is really not yours.

That said, you could have affairs with a married woman, but her children were not recognized as yours, not normally any way.

[bgibbard]

As to twins, I never found any solid example in medieval and Renaissance Europe for a set of twins of noble birth in which both survived to adulthood. (Though that does not mean that it should not be in the game of course.)

In the reign of Kings Henry I and Stephen of England Waleran de Beaumont, Count of Meulan (and later Earl of Worcester) and Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester were powerful and influential twins (I don't know if it is known if they were identical or fraternal twins).