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Hello again folks!

This diary will be a bit on the short side due to the frenzy at the office this week, but since it recently came up on the forum, I thought I'd say a little bit about regnal numbers. One of the nice little touches in Europa Universalis III (and its predecessors) is that kings have proper regnal numbers. This feature was missing from the original Crusader Kings, but I am pleased to announce that it will be fully implemented in Crusader Kings II. The way it works is that the first names of actual scripted holders in the character database are counted for each landed title at game start. Regnal numbers are only displayed for Dukes and above, which includes the Pope (a kingdom tier title.) The Holy Father, however, is a bit special in that he changes name on accession. So, a character named, say, Étienne Aubert could get the name Innocent VI if he became Pope.

Crusader Kings II Alpha - Regnal Numbers.jpg

Somewhat related to regnal numbers is the state of a character at the time of death. In Crusader Kings II, you can browse back through dead characters and see exactly which titles they held and what regnal number they had. I'll leave you with some extra screenshots while you're waiting for the next dev diary, which will be about our beautiful new map. Failing unexpected delays, it should be posted on february 4.

Crusader Kings II Alpha - Vassal Opinions.jpg
Crusader Kings II Alpha - North Sea.jpg

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
And Castillian patronymics usually change the root of the name. The son of Rodrigo is Ruyz (yes, fine, Rodrigo is the more modern version of Ruy, so there you have Ruyz, but still, i'm afraid I'd see Ruyez, because it would add "-ez").

This will work with most names, though, but... Rodrigoez? Lopeez? Nuñoez? or Nuñoz, Lopoz, Rodrigoz...?

Scary.

I understand the rule like that:
(buts it's perhaps a lot less easy to code than to apprehend):

If the father name end with a vowel [AEIOU], this vowel is erased and replaced by -ez
(e.g. Rodrigo -ez = Rodrigez; Lope -ez = Lopez; Nuño -ez = Nuñez)

If the father name end with a semi-vowel [YW], this semi-vowel stay and is added a -z
(e.g. Ruy -z = Ruyz)

If the father name end with a consonant [all other characters], this consonant stay and is added a -ez
(e.g. Martín -ez = Martínez; Esteban -ez = Estebanez)

If the naming script is able to do that, it will work not only for Spanish patronymics but also for other kind of patronymics like Russian names, so it could be interesting to have it function that way: vowels and semi-vowels are erased and replaced by -yevich (-yevna for daughters); consonant are replaced by -ovich (-ovna for daughters).

There may be some exceptions, but overall it may work with that rule. And so the script for patronymics could take car of it, and look like:

Code:
iberian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #ez }
				semivowel = { add = #z }
				consonant = { add = #ez }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #ez }
				semivowel = { add = #z }
				consonant = { add = #ez }
		}
	}
}
east_slavic = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #yevich }
				semivowel = { replace = #yevich }
				consonant = { add = #ovich }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #yevna }
				semivowel = { replace = #yevna }
				consonant = { add = #ovna }
		}
	}
}
scandinavian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #sson }
				semivowel = { replace = #sson }
				consonant = { add = #sson }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #dóttir }
				semivowel = { replace = #dóttir }
				consonant = { add = #dóttir }
		}
	}
}
occitan = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = # }
				semivowel = { add = # }
				consonant = { add = # }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = # }
				semivowel = { add = # }
				consonant = { add = # }
		}
	}
}


gaelic = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = Mac# }
				semivowel = { add = Mac# }
				consonant = { add = Mac# }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = "Nic #" }
				semivowel = { add = "Nic #" }
				consonant = { add = "Nic #" }
		}
	}
}

arabian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = "ibn #" }
				semivowel = { add = "ibn #" }
				consonant = { add = "ibn #" }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = "bint #" }
				semivowel = { add = "bint #" }
				consonant = { add = "bint #" }
		}
	}
}
the game engine would check if the last character of the father first name end with an a, e, i, o, or u (and thus apply scripts for vowels), else if it end with a y or a w (and thus apply scripts for semivowels) else it would apply scripts for consonant.

the scripts indicate with replace if the last character of the father name is erased or with add if it stay. The # is replaced by the father first name.
 
I understand the rule like that:
(buts it's perhaps a lot less easy to code than to apprehend):

If the father name end with a vowel [AEIOU], this vowel is erased and replaced by -ez
(e.g. Rodrigo -ez = Rodrigez; Lope -ez = Lopez; Nuño -ez = Nuñez)

If the father name end with a semi-vowel [YW], this semi-vowel stay and is added a -z
(e.g. Ruy -z = Ruyz)

If the father name end with a consonant [all other characters], this consonant stay and is added a -ez
(e.g. Martín -ez = Martínez; Esteban -ez = Estebanez)

If the naming script is able to do that, it will work not only for Spanish patronymics but also for other kind of patronymics like Russian names, so it could be interesting to have it function that way: vowels and semi-vowels are erased and replaced by -yevich (-yevna for daughters); consonant are replaced by -ovich (-ovna for daughters).

There may be some exceptions, but overall it may work with that rule. And so the script for patronymics could take car of it, and look like:

Code:
iberian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #ez }
				semivowel = { add = #z }
				consonant = { add = #ez }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #ez }
				semivowel = { add = #z }
				consonant = { add = #ez }
		}
	}
}
east_slavic = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #yevich }
				semivowel = { replace = #yevich }
				consonant = { add = #ovich }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #yevna }
				semivowel = { replace = #yevna }
				consonant = { add = #ovna }
		}
	}
}
scandinavian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { replace = #sson }
				semivowel = { replace = #sson }
				consonant = { add = #sson }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { replace = #dóttir }
				semivowel = { replace = #dóttir }
				consonant = { add = #dóttir }
		}
	}
}
occitan = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = # }
				semivowel = { add = # }
				consonant = { add = # }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = # }
				semivowel = { add = # }
				consonant = { add = # }
		}
	}
}


gaelic = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = Mac# }
				semivowel = { add = Mac# }
				consonant = { add = Mac# }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = "Nic #" }
				semivowel = { add = "Nic #" }
				consonant = { add = "Nic #" }
		}
	}
}

arabian = {
	[...]
	patronymic = {
		male = {
				vowel = { add = "ibn #" }
				semivowel = { add = "ibn #" }
				consonant = { add = "ibn #" }
		}
		female = {
				vowel = { add = "bint #" }
				semivowel = { add = "bint #" }
				consonant = { add = "bint #" }
		}
	}
}
the game engine would check if the last character of the father first name end with an a, e, i, o, or u (and thus apply scripts for vowels), else if it end with a y or a w (and thus apply scripts for semivowels) else it would apply scripts for consonant.

the scripts indicate with replace if the last character of the father name is erased or with add if it stay. The # is replaced by the father first name.

^ This, very cool coding, Captain Frakas. I had not thought of something like this, but it makes good sense. But it depends on how the developers handled the patronymic coding in the first place, but what you are suggesting would fit a number of cultures.
 
Looks great, though for the last pic, shouldn't it be Asetro which is the religion? Norse is really more of a group of cultures, unless you're trying to shorten Norse Mythology. :p

I'm no expert, but I thought that it was okay, but maybe it was not exact enough. I think that it is good that "pagan" will be sorted out somewhat, maybe in EU3-style religious groups, rather than just lumped together. So I would guess Norse, Finnish, Slavonic might be in the same religious group, and Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Christian in another, and Sunni, Shiite in a third.
 
^ This, very cool coding, Captain Frakas. I had not thought of something like this, but it makes good sense. But it depends on how the developers handled the patronymic coding in the first place, but what you are suggesting would fit a number of cultures.

Yes, it sounds good, but I think it would make a more simple and better system (f.e. Rodrigez is an exception to that proposed rule, and sure we can find others) that in the names.txt, for every name in every language, is tied to a patronymic (Rodrigo;Rodríguez and so); that would make an easy to implement system, where exceptions like rodriguez are not a problem, and absolutely versatile for all cultures.
 
I'm no expert, but I thought that it was okay, but maybe it was not exact enough. I think that it is good that "pagan" will be sorted out somewhat, maybe in EU3-style religious groups, rather than just lumped together. So I would guess Norse, Finnish, Slavonic might be in the same religious group, and Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Christian in another, and Sunni, Shiite in a third.
It's not exactly bad, but I think Asetro/Asatro convey the message better. It's a bit like calling Greek Mythology "Greek", which I am sure some Greeks would raise an eyebrow at. :p But yeah, religious groups would be neat!
 
And I would like to see heresy better depicted. There were so many christian schools that warred for supremacy in the middle ages, that it would be sad to see them thrown into one and the same bucket labeled heresy again. I can see events where a ruler would have to decide to take a stance in critical religious matters, that could eventually turn your country into a nation that is still considered christian but e.g. something like the cathars, a seperate christian current.
 
And I would like to see heresy better depicted. There were so many christian schools that warred for supremacy in the middle ages, that it would be sad to see them thrown into one and the same bucket labeled heresy again. I can see events where a ruler would have to decide to take a stance in critical religious matters, that could eventually turn your country into a nation that is still considered christian but e.g. something like the cathars, a seperate christian current.

I think we've been told the great christian heresies are equal religions to catholic or orthodox. There was that one quote which said something along the lines "christian group consists of catholicism, orthodoxy and its great heresies like waldensians, lollards, cathars etc."
 
I think we've been told the great christian heresies are equal religions to catholic or orthodox. There was that one quote which said something along the lines "christian group consists of catholicism, orthodoxy and its great heresies like waldensians, lollards, cathars etc."

That's good to read, but it shouldn't be static then, like Henry is born catholic, thus he stays catholic for all of his life. Some decisions should be able to send you on another track. The middle ages were all about questioning god's plan for the world, everyone feared for his or her soul so many were tempted to abandon old ways for new ones that seemed tp offer greater chance of salvation. Religion was a personally extremly important issue for medieval characters and it should be, too, in CK2.
 
That's good to read, but it shouldn't be static then, like Henry is born catholic, thus he stays catholic for all of his life. Some decisions should be able to send you on another track. The middle ages were all about questioning god's plan for the world, everyone feared for his or her soul so many were tempted to abandon old ways for new ones that seemed tp offer greater chance of salvation. Religion was a personally extremly important issue for medieval characters and it should be, too, in CK2.

I think that it should not necessarily be a black and white issue. Characters should gradually move in one direction or another, but there should be events to decide how to label yourself publicly. So Count Carle of Toulouse could start as a rather orthodox Catholic, then begin to think that maybe his brother is right. Maybe there are two gods and the flesh is bad. (gain or lose traits) Then his friend the priest friend condemns papal power, and his discussions with the mayor of Montpellier, who had traveled in the East before being elected to office, turn to reincarnation. Then a plot emerges in his court of gnostic Christians who are called "Cathars." EVENTNAME_1110115: You are approached during the harvest festival by your stewart, Jorge de Avila, who asks if your are a "Good Man" or not. Choices:

(a) I am. (Carle II de Toulouse is now a Cathar, +50 relations all Cathar characters)
(b) What is a "good man"? (no effect)
(c) If you mean a toad-sucking heretic, then you might burn with the chaff (-50 relations all Cathar characters, gain trait pious)

Just a quick draft for an event.
 
Do you think we'll be able to browse back to any character, from any dynasty?

that should not be any different than CK1, where you can do just that, going back to Charlemagne practically from 1066. Good for figuring out how to get your future descendants to inherit a particular territory or how the current King of Norway is related to your Duke of Savoy.
 
I would suggest option (b) gets you -25 relations with both cathars and the Pope.

Anyways, this is one nice event.

Thanks. I hope that change_religion will be there as a coding option, as well as change_dynasty (for different reasons). The trick would be making events like these apply to a broad number of cases, but maybe this will work well in CK2.

Over the long term I'm not sure how well playing Cathars would work out. They did strongly discourage procreation after all.
 
Over the long term I'm not sure how well playing Cathars would work out. They did strongly discourage procreation after all.

And the Bible strongly discourages killing (thou shalt not murder and all), and yet what's the first thing catholics do in this game? Yup. :p Your common man cares for religious commandments as long as they suit him. So your everyday Cathar would procreate as much as everybody else.
 
And the Bible strongly discourages killing (thou shalt not murder and all), and yet what's the first thing catholics do in this game? Yup. :p Your common man cares for religious commandments as long as they suit him. So your everyday Cathar would procreate as much as everybody else.

Just thought I'd throw it in. I've done some time studying Christian sects that advocate celibacy in the nineteenth century, so this reminded me of that sort of thing.
 
Quote Originally Posted by RedRooster81 View Post
Whether accurate for the earliest date or not, I think ordinal numbers will be good to have. In my CK1 Iberian games, I have like five Sanchos per generation and three Alfonsos

A question I have is, say my old king is named Alfonso VI, he marries a certain heiress from Aquitaine and their heir is Alphonse. Will he be known as Alphonse I or Alfonso VII when he takes the throne? Ah, the challenges of a multi-cultural family.
--
He would be Alphonse I, though we might have time to tweak this eventually.

Hi Doomdark. Are you able to confirm please if this tweak is still on the cards and how eventual it may be?

CK2 will be phenomenal, but I believe regnal numbering not shared across cultures would be widely perceived as "broken". It would be fiddly for AAR pedants to correct in screenshots and, at worst, general immersion may suffer for it.

On the point of immersion, compare it to CK where a courtier Jacques Hamid could be generated in a Christian court in the Levant, or instances of "gone tribal" heirs like Abu-Bakr von Franken before this was fixed. We love CK (flaws and all) but it may be better to save CK2 regnal numbering for an expansion pack if there isn't enough time before release.
 
A bit off topic, but I know a real life prince Heinrich XIII, from a family in which all male members were named Heinrich from the 13th century onward. So why only XIII? Because they invented a special notation system that starts the numbering anew after certain criteria.