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Thread: Heavy armor and Super-heavy armor -- why the unit difference?

  1. #1
    General der Tso's Chicken Bullfrog's Avatar
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    Heavy armor and Super-heavy armor -- why the unit difference?

    I was wondering why the game has heavy armor as line units and super-heavy armor as support units. I'm fairly sure that the size of these brigades, looking at historical units for examples, should be fairly small, i.e., support only.

    As far as I know, there were not heavy armor regiments (brigades) fielded by any army of WW2. In all examples I can find, heavy armor units were battalion size, which would equate to a support brigade.

    HoI3 has the heavy armor unit as a full line unit, which is odd to me, especially considering the super heavy is a support unit. In my mind there should be no difference between the units except for the type of tank.
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  2. #2
    super heavy armour is more or less only for flavour. historically nobody used something like that.

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    Soulless Bastard ETTAR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    super heavy armour is more or less only for flavour. historically nobody used something like that.
    Historically the German military was the only country EVER to take a super Heavy Tank design past the prototype stage.
    The Panzer VIII Maus
    They also have a design for a... what i would call a literal Land Battleship. The Landkreuzer P1000 Ratte. Armed with Dual 280 MM cannons XD
    Powered by 2 U-Boat engines
    It was to weigh 1,000 tons with 360 MM armor

  4. #4
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    The Maus never moved past the prototype stage either. Sure they built two tanks but they were still just prototypes.

  5. #5
    First off, this is not a completely historical game. You have the options to do what you would like and I personally like the option of being able to field a heavy armor divison, as I often do with Germany or the USSR, I use them mainly as spearhead divisions to assist my other Armor divisions. Also think of it this way, if Germany had maintained air superiority what would have stopped them from fielding entire Tiger and Panther Tank divisions?

  6. #6
    Heavy Armor refers to Tiger and King Tiger and those are used in the front forming Panzer divisions with a mixture of medium tanks.
    Super Heavy is the Maus that was never fielded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergate View Post
    Heavy Armor refers to Tiger and King Tiger and those are used in the front forming Panzer divisions with a mixture of medium tanks.
    Super Heavy is the Maus that was never fielded.
    Tiger I and Tiger II were never used in divisions (with very few exeptions).

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    Tiger I and Tiger II were never used in divisions (with very few exeptions).
    The SS 101 Heavy Panzer for example is battalion size, I don't think there was ever a full brigade exclusively on heavy tanks. As I said, it is always mixture typically of Panzer IV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shibito View Post
    First off, this is not a completely historical game. ...
    Quote Originally Posted by mexidus View Post
    The Maus never moved past the prototype stage either. Sure they built two tanks but they were still just prototypes.
    You are both right . Maus was only prototype and it is not a complete historic game.

    Maus was not build because the prototypes where build at the end of the war and germany had too little ressources. I am thinking that Germany would have build Maus in series if they have had the time and the ressources. Even if it is not usefull, they would have used it for propaganda ("We have the biggest penis in the world. Did I say penis? I ment tank!"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by ow592 View Post
    You are both right . Maus was only prototype and it is not a complete historic game.

    Maus was not build because the prototypes where build at the end of the war and germany had too little ressources. I am thinking that Germany would have build Maus in series if they have had the time and the ressources. Even if it is not usefull, they would have used it for propaganda ("We have the biggest penis in the world. Did I say penis? I ment tank!"
    Can't agree more. If you can show-off and intimidate your opponents, you're going to do it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergate View Post
    The SS 101 Heavy Panzer for example is battalion size, I don't think there was ever a full brigade exclusively on heavy tanks. As I said, it is always mixture typically of Panzer IV.
    i know for sure that the "Großdeutschland" division had both Tiger I and Tiger II but of course only a few of them. the mixture with the smaler tanks was intended. the "faster" tanks were used to sevure the flanks of the heavier ones.

  12. #12
    I'm playin Germany now and it's the middle of may 1946....I re-invaded what was left of the SU and am almost finished with them....i used one H arm division in the invasion and it fared well...I currently have 2 full-size(5 brigade) SH Arm division and will probably build one or two more for my invasion of the US... ill prob gets its speed up to 4 or 5 kph...im currently almost finished researching 1950 tech for my SH tank engine and reliability..ill prob he able to get one more lvl in for both which my make my SH arm very useful..mostly as a spearhead and then as a mobile defence for to guard the "edges of my dagger" as I plunge deep into US territory,although i might use a few brigades as attachments to my spearhead divisions...

  13. #13
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    The Herman Goering PZ Grenadier (LW division that fought like a Heer division or better) had a Tiger Bn assigned as an organic unit-rather than the typical PZ4's and 5's. There were a few other elite divisions that had the same. As those Bn's were historically used as medium tanks in some cases it makes sense for the heavy tank Bn's to count as such with frontage.

    It is doubtful that super heavies, if ever deployed, would have become part of a division TO&E except perhaps as a section to a regiment. A temporary assignment organized as a Bn or Bde, as most tigers were used, would have been the norm-a safe assumption.

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    General der Tso's Chicken Bullfrog's Avatar
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    So should heavy armor become a support brigade instead of a line brigade?
    "We’ve been looking for the enemy for several days now. We’ve finally found them. We are surrounded. That simplifies the problem of getting to these people and killing them."
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfrog View Post
    So should heavy armor become a support brigade instead of a line brigade?
    Since Tiger tanks are normally position in front of the spearhead, it will in inapprioprate for them to be called 'support'.
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    Yes, Hitler was crazy for big things. If you would make anything big and bring to his table, it would get approved.
    I am not too fond of Superheavies too but they make other people happy, so why not having them.
    I think that they would build some Ratte to drive on victory parade, that's it

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    Hi folks,

    The french had super heavies in some kind of service and were about to use it against the germans.
    They also planned to build some new ones, but the war interrupet these plans.
    The french were the only country to have fielded such big tanks.. Already 69 tons in end '20ies..

    Also the russian planned to field heavy tank divisons and did so after the war. Some kind of "Tank-Shock-force"..
    The germans used what they wer able to. That reflects not their wish to have more heavies or tank divisons with consist fully with halftrack support vehicles..

    You could also think of heavy-brigades in game as a tank brigade with heavies already attached and not only consist pure out of them..?
    As you would like to have them supported with other tanks anyway. Like the germans did with their heavies f.e...(If they had them around..)

    And that applies then also for super heavies..

    I have them in the AHOI-Teasure as Regiments that are composed around of them, and a tech that allows you to "attach" them to a heavy Regiment. Like a tech that allows you to "attach" heavies to Medium Tank Regiment.. (Something of Guderians plan to attach heavies to Tank Regiments..)

    So I have both, a regular Regiment build around that weapon type, and a "buff-tech" solution for normal Regiments..
    (As I have no more support Bat., only Regiment size, I'm maybe out of buisiness here..)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfrog View Post
    So should heavy armor become a support brigade instead of a line brigade?
    I don't think so. If it helps with your immersion in the game you can think of them abstractly as mixed units with the main part being the Tiger I or II tanks in a 2:1 ratio with lighter (Pz IV or something) tanks utilized with proper doctrine. I dunno, something to think about, instead of a completely homogeneous formation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullfrog View Post
    So should heavy armor become a support brigade instead of a line brigade?
    Since Tiger tanks are normally position in front of the spearhead, it [would be] inappropriate for them to be called 'support'.
    True, but also since HARM also represents KVs etc which were then no, HARM should have width/be a front Bgd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundergate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    Tiger I and Tiger II were never used in divisions (with very few exeptions).
    The SS 101 Heavy Panzer for example is battalion size, I don't think there was ever a full brigade exclusively on heavy tanks. As I said, it is always mixture typically of Panzer IV.
    Yeah, but no but... unless HOI starts representing units at Battalion level I think PI has it right, game feel wise representing Tigers I & II as HARM Bgds. It wouldn't feel right to me otherwise especially since other countries (majors only really) have their Heavy Tanks represented thus, therefore for the balance.

  20. #20
    Field Marshal jju_57's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by comsubpac View Post
    Tiger I and Tiger II were never used in divisions (with very few exeptions).
    The words "never" and "very few exceptions" are contradictory to each otheer and mutually exclusive. Never is an absolute so it has no exceptions by definition.

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