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Thread: Albania vs. The World

  1. #1
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

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    Albania vs. The World

    OK, I might regret this in the morning, but here goes...

    I've been trying some tricks that the usual world conquerors are using. In the last few days I had a lot of free time, so I've tried a few smaller countries (like Eithiopia), and failed with them. Then I tried Delhi, and I did manage to conquer south Asia and establish a healthy economy, but I was strong enough just to defend myself, while the expansion was very slow. I gave up.

    A few hours prior to this posting I've read Peter Ebbesen's Manpower post (again), and figured out something. Everyone says Albania is tough. It has a state culture that exists only in one province. It has a horrible manpower. It has no economy.

    OK, it's all true.

    But then I've read that Italy has some huge manpower potentials, and while everyone was focusing on the Ottomans and the neirby countries, nobody was thinking about Italy. I figured I'd give it a try.

    I was annexed a couple of times of course, once by Venice and twice by the Ottomans. In the fouth shot, however, I succeeded in an incredible game I enjoyed like I hadn't for a long time. And I've established quite a strong country on the Balkans. So I've decided I'd write about it, and eventually try to take over the world (85% chance I'd not make it ).

    Damn I've wrote a novel already

    So here goes, the basic settings, while the AAR stroy itself will be published today or tomorrow.
    Country: Albania
    Religion: Catholic
    Difficulty: Very Hard / Normal
    1. Survive
    2. Unite all the Christians under one flag
    3. Unite all the heathens under one flag
    4. Unite the rest
    1. No cheating
    2. No editing
    3. If I fail I'll end the AAR, and not restart a saved game

    Note that I'd might rephrase those goals if the story requires it, but no matter what the ultimate goal is world conquest.

    Wish me luck!
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  2. #2
    CatAARstroph1c moderator Moderator Stroph1's Avatar

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    Here is a large ale -- you may need it for Albania!

    More spam, you die! Horribly, horribly!

  3. #3
    Field Marshal
    Crusader Kings IICities: Skylines

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    You could use some help... but on this forum I learned not to be surprised by anything. And WC with a small Balkanic country is a very simple task
    Promise me one thing: don`t rename New York as New Durres; can you imagine a Sinatra song called "New Durres, New Durres"?
    You say annihilation of all humanity, I say less crowded public transport.

  4. #4
    Wizzaard Estonianzulu's Avatar
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    Tangled up in blue
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    The Christians, the Heathans, the others...

    Well good luck, annex Italy, if some other nation doesnt beat you to it. I have tried Albania once, I was dead by 1429. I did reunite Greece once, but died in 1518
    LibrAARian of the EU1 LibrAARy and the EU1 LibrAARy updates
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  5. #5
    Field Marshal Prince Eugene's Avatar

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    This will be a first.

  6. #6
    I played Albania in the exact way you state. However I was only concerned with having the best Football team, not WC.

    I must keep my AAR up to date.
    If only I had Minsc, I could deal with these nasty Turks.

    I have started my own Hungary AAR, I hope you enjoy it: Click here to enter
    Count Andraskay's Diary
    Also, check out the peaceful Lenape here:
    The Peaceful Lenape
    Finally, an alternative AAR for ALbania
    FC Durres

  7. #7
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

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    Thanks for all your replies. I must admit I'm afraid now that I might get annexed in the next ten years, and ruin the entire AAR.... And I will need all the advices you can give. Read the post after the story to find out how I played in reality...

    This is the story covering the events that happenned in the game... I had no time of infenting something more original, so you’ll just get a classical idiocy . I’ll name it:

    ____ TiMe ShIfTiNg ____
    _____ or the story about a king being screwed by the laws of physics _____

    Albania was a disunited country. It was controlled by the tribes, and constant fighting and blood revenging kept the people distracted from their true enemies: the countries that sorrounded them. Albania formally had a ruler, who was more of the guy who had the biggest mountain top, because there really wasn’t anything else worthy of competing.

    One day the chieftan sat on top of his mountain, and observed his lands. This was the best he could do to make his time pass. He could not do manual labor, because he was a noble. He didn’t need to order people around, because there wasn’t much to do for them even. Watching sheep all day doesn’t require much brainpower. Watching the lands doesn’t either, but the chieftan thought otherwise.

    Suddenly, out of nowhere, a shiny white bubble the size of a piano showed up. The chieftain didn’t even have time to react when it swallowed him. Nothing happenned after that. So, puzzled, he walked down to his wooden castle, and asked around if anyone saw something similar. They didn’t. The chieftain decided he’d better forget about it, and besides, it was time for supper.

    The following day he was talking to a friend of his.
    “I had a really weird dream last night. You wanna hear it?”
    “I was sleeping in my royal bed, and suddenly I heard a noise. I got out of the bed, and walked outside. There I saw an old man, dressed in white and hovering in the air. He was repeating these three words “Annex the Dutchy of Athens, Chief.... Annex the Dutchy of Athens, Chief...” over and over untill I asked him why, which woke me up...”
    “Geez, how can you dream such crap!? I always dream naked women, or sheep at least, but an old man!? And it wasn’t three words, it was two!”
    “Maybe it’s a sign?”
    “The hell it is! I’d say stay low and hope I don’t get killed in a blood-revenge.”
    “OK, whatever. I’m going to build cavalry anyways, and annex Athens just as the old man told me to!”
    “Where are you going to get cavalry in the mountains! Unless you mean sheep. You did mean to say sheep, right?”
    “You just continue and criticize me, but we’ll see who’ll get presents once I loot Athens!”

    Suddenly his friend disappeared, and everything in front of him became blured. Some weird sounds were coming out of nowhere, the temperature got hot, then cold, then hot again in a matter of seconds. He could feel being touched by a thousand fingers, but never long enough to realize where. “Hmm, I must be traveling through time”, the chief thought. And amaizingly he was right, because when it was all over, and it lasted for only a few seconds, he found himself in front of a bunch of nobles, and the time passed over two years.


    “Nobles, huh? And lower ranked than I am, judging from their clothes”, thought the chief. The nobles did seem a bit rugged. They were all looking at him, silently, as if they were waiting for him to say something. But what? He’s in the future, he’s not sure if a hundred years have passed of a thousand. And surely he doesn’t know what these nobles want. What if they speak another language! - that frightening thought crossed his mind, when finally one of the men speaked.
    “Well, what is your decision? Am I right or is Sheqiri right?”
    “Who the hell?”, he though, then he looked at a man who he recognized as the leader of a smaller tribe.

    The tedious moment continued for another five seconds, while everyone was silent.

    The suddenly he fealt as if he was hit by a rock in the head, but without causing pain, and the next thing he knew he remembered everything that happenned in the past two years. And he remembered them as if he was present too. The great fight in the tavern when a Turk bragged about them annexing Candar. The continuous, but painfully slow recruitment of cavalry, forcing him to ask the Venetians for a loan. And finally, the nobles gathered in his wooden palace, seeking his advice on how to resolve a blood feud that has just started.

    “You want my advice?”, he asked in a calm voice. One of the men got irritated enough by the standoff that happenned just a moment ago, and started yelling:
    “Damnit, he doesn’t even know what’s going on!”
    “I DO know what’s going on, my friend. I just needed some time to think it through. And I’ve finally came to my decision. Do you want to hear it?”
    “Yes!!!”, a few of the nobles said.
    “Well, I don’t see why I’m supposed to deal with these matters. Sheqiri killed Qeku’s wife because Qeku was steeling Sheqiri’s sheep. Both of you are guilty, so you should fight it out yourselves. I’m not going to get my hands dirty!”, said as he looked at his palm. They were bright clean. Just as they were before this weird thing happenned to him. After the nobles left, he touched his face. No wrinkles, although he expected them to be there in a year or two, and those years have passed now. “Perhaps I’m not getting older either?”

    His time travel has began once more... Suddenly, and without warnings.

    The walls of Athens appeared in front of him. He remembered the city, because he was taken there by his father when he was young. He looked around: he was sitting on top of a horse, on a small hill. His bodyguards, all in ragged clothes and a few armor, were to his left and right. A man was coming in his direction. “The town’s answer, chief”. “Um, read it out...”, said he, hoping that it’s the right thing to do at the moment. The servant broke the seal of the letter, and read it: “I accept your offer. I will surrender the city to your men, as long as you allow me to remain governor”.

    The memories suddenly hit him again. He remembered the various weddings, in which five of his sons were married to princesses coming from all neirby countries, save the Ottomans and the Greeks. He also remembered the Aragonite king’s letter, where he asked the hand of his only daughter. Aragon was his ally, along with Naples, and he couldn’t refuse. Then finally, the declaration of war on the Dutchy of Athens and its allies. The slaughter of the 2000 men army the enemy had, which had been outnumbered by his all-cavalry forced 9:1. And then he remembered the boring months from January to August 1422, when he was besieging the city.

    “Tell him I accept his offer”, he told the messenger. A man next to him cried out with joy:
    “The Dutchy is no more! Our eternal enemies are toast!”
    “What ‘eternal enemies’?” - interrupted the guy next to him - “We never were at war with them, ever”
    “Shut up, heathen!”, answered the soldier. The guy was obviously of the Orthodox faith. “Oh no!”, the chief thought, I still haven’t issued the order of tollerating the Orthodox, and suddenly he remembered the short rebellion in Albania which was easily crushed, but send a frightening message about the future.
    “You there! Scriber boy!” - he called at one of his servants - “Before I go, I want you to write down my new law: the Catholics and Orthodox are going to be tollerated as equals, while the Muslim heathens will be persecuted whenever possible”
    “Yes sir! But where are you going...?”
    “Where did you come from, where did you go; Where did you come from Katmandu”, the king remembered of a weird song, but wouldn’t sing it out loud, of course.

    The moment after the chieftain fell into the time shift again.
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  8. #8
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

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    - ! with guest stars ! -

    A thousand horses appear in front of him. His men were climbing the mountains, and he was among them. Suddenly a sword was shaped in his right hand. “What the hell?” He looked upside to the mountain, when a man cried out “Here they come!” Many horses, so much he couldn’t count them all out, came down the mountain side in a fast gallop. The men were waring rags on their heads. Turks!
    “What am I doing among the soldiers? Why am I don in a safe place?”, thought the chief, and decided to go back to a safe place to observe the battle. Someone started yelling, which was ok, because everyone was yelling at the beginning of the battle, but the weird thing was that his voice could be heard among all the others. “The king is fleeing! Retreat!”. The king tried to hold them back, telling he’s only looking for a nicer spot, but he was interrupted by the hit of memories. And then he was taken along with the crowd.

    Later that day, back in the city of Athens, they were having supper.

    “Damn this army food! Why can’t we get some puding?”, one of the leaders complained.
    “This isn’t a place for sissies, friend!”
    “What did you call me?”
    “I called you nothing! I said this isn’t a place for sissies!”
    “Pull out your sword, so at least you could die with honor!”
    “Make me!”

    The following day, at the burial. The king was talking to one of his servants.

    “He really shouldn’t have said “make me” to the guy. I know puding is for sissies, but still...”
    “What did you call me?”, the guy overheards him.
    “Nothing, major”
    “So where are we going to get a new general? This one was our brightest home...”
    “He did lose the battle of Morea against 8000 Turks”
    “But it was y...”
    “Yes sir.....”
    “I could make one of these sheep bunglers my new general, but I guess I would just start another blood feud”
    “Sir, if you’ll allow me. I know a guy, who knows this other guy, and the other guy’s friend told me about this general...”

    Time shifting again....

    There were horses again. There was a sword in his hand again. There was a guy with no pants next to him.
    “ChArGE!”, the guy yelled. The chief had no idea what was going on, so he decided to leave everything the way it was, and wait untill he gets his memory back. He could see his men fighting the Turks. The guy next to him was obviously the general.
    “General, we are losing men on the right wing” - a servant started saying - “Perhaps you should send reinforcement there”
    The battle was over in two minutes, the enemy was crushed and killed to the last man. The chief then remembered what has happenned in the last three years. And he remembered tha scouts report that there were at least 24.000 Turkish soldiers against them. They just fought those men.
    “That was incredible, general! How did you manage to slaughter 24.000 men in only 2 minutes, and with 15.000 men on our side?”
    “HoLpLy DOlaLpy”
    “Amaizing! What about that city there? Morea? We need to capture it too”

    A grand festival was heald later that day, celebrating the capture of the city. With the crowds chased away by the repeated fireing into them that BoB ordered to the soldiers, there was no one to disturb their fun. And just as the chief started dancing on the table with a wine bottle in his hands, he got into time traveling again.

    He fell on his horse, drunken and still singing his song: “Hit me baby one more time...”
    “Another battle? Let’s see it”, the king thought, and decided to turn his horse around, because he was facing the wrong direction. When he succeeded in turning around, the battle was all over.
    And Thessaloniki fell too, right after the 11.000 Turkish army was annihilated. The chieftain looked at his watch: the year was 1425, November. So he travelled only six months. The city was captured only six months after Morea?
    “This is incredible, general! What should we do now?”
    “DoGs SmeLL LiKe doG fOOd”
    “Excellent! Our people would be lost without you, BoB!”

    A servant ran towards them.

    “Sir! Sir! I have important news!”
    “Well read it out loud then, son!”
    “Sir, I really think you should hear it in private!”
    “I’m not hiding any information away from BoB”
    “All right then, Sir. We have just gone bankrupt!”
    “What? But how? When? Why?”

    The soldiers started shouting.

    “Did you hear that? We’re not going to get payed, fellows!”

    So the king decided to calm them down.

    “Men, hear me! Surely the loot you’ve taken in the last two cities should be enough to compensate...”
    “I’m declaring war on Byzantium tomorrow! The loot we’ll get there is more that you could imagine!”
    “BoB, do something!”
    “I’m NoT a FlyIng sAucEr!!!”

    The men get so encourraged by these words that the following day they annihilate the 32.000 men Byzantine army, losing only 2000. BoB sends small detached forced to the provinces of Bulgaria, Rumelia and Dobrudja. Bulgaria and Dobrudja were previously captured by Wallachia in a separate war, but the troops are needed there to cover the provinces in case they sign a white peace deal with the Ottomans. Then he orders the army to march further into Anatolia, to fight the last remaining, 26.000 men army there.

    The chief, of course, goes into time shifting again. He appears just a minute before the battle.

    “Wow, these Turks look so mean, general. And they are guided by Murad the Indestructible. You will surely need good tactics now, general!”
    “I would never think of that! What a genius!”

    The Turks are defeated, but not annihilated. Some 8000 of them survive, and flee to a neigboring province. After waiting for a few months, they decide to strike again, thus pissing BoB off, who decides to annihilate them this time. And he does. Then he sends out small troops to cover all the remaining provinces, and seeing that he’s work is done, he disappears into the night.

    The chief shows up in the year 1431, in his old wooden palace. He remembers disappearing from it only a few weeks ago, but in reality he was away for 8 years. The emperor of Byzantium, and the sultan of the Ottomans are sitting in front of him. He waits for a minute for his memory to recover, then begins to speak.
    “You, Byzantium, I will annex you, because I like you!”
    “Can I at least keep my pet Sparky?”
    “No, Sparky now belongs to the state. And the state, that is I”, the chief chuckled as the humiliated emperor was taken away in chains. Then he turked over to the Turkish sultan.
    “I will let you live in your small province of Anatolia, along with your pet...”
    “Yes, whatever. But I want all your other provinces...”
    “No way!”
    “You have no provinces left”
    “I don’t care”
    “You have no more armies to command”
    “Not listening...”
    “And would you accept if I leave you the two Muslim provinces on the East, and take everything else?”

    This was a good deal anyway. A month ago the people of Albania, remembering their rebellions being crushed over and over, spontaniously decided to convert to Catholicism. The Catholic element has now showed up in the kingdom where it was largely ignored in favor of the overwhelming Orthodox and Muslim population. In the peace deal, Albania gained all the Orthodox provinces, save Ruthenia and Dobrudja, and none of the Muslim ones. This was Catholicism could be tollerated.

    “Ha, I expanded my empire by 500% Who can do that again in only ten years?”
    “Sire, there was once this guy, called Gengis...”
    “Silence! Now that I’m powerful, I don’t need to be nice to people anymore”
    “Yes Sir”

    And the chief got into time shifting again....

    For more about BoB check out Splangy's Armenian Adventure
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  9. #9
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Behind you!

    - Good allies if you're lucky
    - I hope Skenderbeg will be as good as a leader as they say he is
    - State culture that doesn't exist anywhere else
    - Wrong religion (Catholic) = huge stability once you expand yourself
    - No CB shields (I already have 21 BB points!)
    - Horrible economy
    - You can buy only 1000 soldiers at once (inf or cav)
    - Once you buy 3000 horse you are forced to take a loan
    - Bad location in the world

    2. What I've found out
    - The Ottomans declare war in 1424 (7 times in 10 cases)
    - If you're not strong enough one of your smaller neighbors will backstab
    you (I dared attacking the Dutchy 4 times without having at least 15.000
    soldiers. All 4 times I was DoWed by Ragusa/Serbia/Venice). Otherwise they
    will not dare touch you (6 times peace)
    - If you leave the Ottomans alone, they will take Morea from Byzantines
    before 1424, and DoW you after (even if you try to improve relations or
    have millitary access treaty). This is good because the Byzantines are an
    - In two cases one of my two provinces converted to Catholicism before
    1430 (although I rarely survived until 1430, so this could show a pattern)
    - In Hellas you can build 1 soldier per recruitment, but only if stability is +2. In Kosovo you can build 2 soldiers, even at lower stability values. Conclusion: always go after Serbia, not the Dutchy. You’ll also get less BB points

    3. How I didn't play
    After playing as Albania for the first 20 years, and creating this country
    that's sufficient enough to defend itself without bankrupcies I have read
    Peter Ebbesen's World Conquest for Dummies. I thought, what the hell, I'll try
    once more, play using his strategy (hireing mercenaries) and see if I end up
    better. Well, I didn't. In the beginning my forces would overwhelm the
    Ottomans, and defeat their forces in the European part, but I can get only so
    much forces to cover those provinces, and not the Byzantine ones. The
    Byzantines denied all my Millitary Access requiests. So I declared war. I've
    lost a battle against them in Thrakia, and then the Turks already transported a
    huge army to Thessaloniki, and ... the end. The mercenaries are no good! I've
    tried all afternoon to figure that out...

    4. How I played (= I was lucky)
    Of course I was lucky, because I gained Aragon as an ally, and none of the
    Balkan states DoWed me. Instead, Wallachia and Moldova fought the Ottomans. And
    after the battle at Thessaloniki the Ottomans left their European part to me
    without attacking (well I did have 30.000 cavalry, so perhaps the AI was
    OK, first I've started building cavalry. Then I took out a loan and
    continued recruiting until 1421. Then my army size reached 20, which is the
    supply limit of my province, so it was no use of building more. I decided I
    would not attack the Ottomans, but instead wait for their DoW, because I wanted
    to save on BB points. Anyway, I attacked and annexed the Dutchy of Athens. Just
    6 days after peace was signed, the Ottomans DoWed me. I've lost and won battles
    in the next two years, when finally the decisive battle was played at
    Thessaloniki, when I annihilated some 25.000 Ottoman soldiers that outnumbered
    my 15.000 cavalry. Then I laid siege to every Balkan's province, which wasn't
    tough, thanks to the Wallachians.
    A year has passed, and all the provinces fell. What should I do now? I had some
    2 transport ships from the Dutchy I annexed, so I used them to send a small
    expedition to Karamon. They were annihilated. Then I DoWed Byzantium,
    annihilated their army and captured the province. The Aragonites joined the
    siege too, and after it was over they sent their 6000 soldiers against the
    25.000 Ottomans in Anatolia, which was lead by Murad. I waited for about a
    week, then started my soldiers, so when the Aragonites began losing I have
    arrived and victory was archieved. The Ottomans returned a few months later,
    and they were annihilated. I quickly split my army in 4 parts, and covered all
    their provinces, and eventually victory was archieved in 1431.
    What I didn't mention was the large number of sea battles, which I mostly won
    thanks to my allies. I guess this is one reason why the Ottomans couldn't
    transport their relief troops to Europe (is it? I really want to know)

    4. What now?
    I really don't know. I've fulfilled my first goal, but the Venetians, Serbia,
    Ragusa etc. declared war on me a few months after the peace. I guess I could
    defeat them, but... this would mean my third bankrupcy (inflation is something
    like 60% already).
    I would really like some advices. The Muslim provinces I guess I won't be
    touching. At least not before I convert the Orthodox provinces (tough luck!)
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  10. #10
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Behind you!
    And finally here are the pictures. I forgot to post them inside the story...
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  11. #11
    General ws2_32's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Hey Juszuf, thanks for the invite. I like new challenges and discussion on early game strategy. I like giving advice, although I don't recall anyone ever using any of my wild schemes. First I'll attempt to answer your questions.

    You say you don't understand how I can finance myself so well at the beginning. That is likely because, like most folks, you don't understand the undocumented mysteries of looting. Early on playing a small nation, I typically DoW very large nations for purpose of looting. In my Trebizond game, I looted Golden Horde for about 60$, Poland/Lithuania for about 200$, Bohemia for 50$, and Byzantium for 22$ per every 13 months. Over a ten year period of war, the average was about 240$ in loot per year. Add in money from war taxes, trade, and production income from the occupation of a few enemy provinces; my total income was near 300$ a year for 10 years. What did I have to show for it at the end of the 10 years? I had repaid my loan, had 36k cavalry, 18 galleys, 750$ in peace resolutions, a CoT in Astrakhan, 6 traders placed, and a humbled Byzantium that I could easily backstab for annexation. Not bad for 5% or 6% inflation and a net gain of 3 BB points. Then I continued DoWing large nations, looting and controlling provinces, taking CoTs, vassalizing, etc. Income would keep climbing. See the income graph for that game.

    I hope to help by setting people straight on some points about looting. Although Lithuania is cold in the winter, there is no need to suffer attrition when looting the country. I did not attempt to win any sieges in Poland/Lithuania; I did not need to be there in the winter. I would, at times, end up with men in the cold, unable to get past enemy forces. At such times an entire detachment of 1200 cavalry would eventually be lost but not until they had looted one or two more provinces. Mostly, I would lose troops because I wasn't paying as close attention as I should or I wasn't able to pause as soon as I wanted. Slap bang, my little 1k cavalry would run into like 30k Lithuanian cavalry and would be annihilated before I had the chance to flee. You see, even fleeing troops of any size can loot a province, so long as they are present in the province at the end of the month. Attrition is as much as 25% depending on presence of snow, the supply of the province, and how many enemy troops are present as you flee. For looting, only minimal troop size need be used, big enough to cover a fortress and be able to suffer a small amount of movement attrition and attrition when fleeing in the presence of enemy troops. Depending on anticipated activities a looting unit might begin as 1200, 1250, or 1500 in size and hopefully 1100 or more men would return. If a unit becomes smaller than 1k in size, that unit can only retreat to an adjacent province not controlled by an enemy, to an enemy province covered by your troops or an ally or someone else at war with your enemy, or to a province containing enemy troops. If there is no such adjoining province, the troops are completely lost. Mostly, what happens, is that an army of 800 men ping-pongs around running into and fleeing from enemy troops trying to gain more loot or make it to a friendly territory until slap bang the small band is accidentally annihilated. Out of the 90k cavalry built over ten years, only 8.2k were lost to attrition. Nearly 40k were lost in combat, probably like 25k lost due to accidental annihilation (i.e. game interface issues).

    Juszuf, in your AAR the king says, "The loot [in Byzantium] is more than you could imagine!" The crowd says, "Booh!" Booh, is right. Byzantium is good for a total of about 27$ each 13 months in loot from Thrace and Morea. That's not a wealth of loot; but Byzantium does tend to give a lot in peace negotiations, about 100$ for each year they are unable to build military during the war.

    You see, loot is the annual base tax of a province times enemies cultural and religious modifiers times your stability modifier. You get the loot when you "burn" an enemy province by having troops present in the province at the end of the month. In the case of your allies also being in the province, you get no loot. You only get loot when the province goes from not-burning to burning; and a province doesn't stop burning for 13 months. So you can loot a province every 13 months. That makes looting occur a month later each year, which has an effect in snowy areas. Loot goes into your monthly income on the month it is looted. To get the loot in cash, one must slide the treasury bar to coin the money. To minimize inflation, one must loot as many provinces in a single month as possible. Return the treasury bar to stop minting of coins on months with little or no loot.

    Countries best for DoWing for purpose of looting are large countries rich in annual taxes, or countries with many rich allies that will honor. Add up all annual tax from all provinces that will be enemy provinces, and that is the maximum amount of loot you might hope to gain. And although you might get a good, early peace offer, you want to drag your looting war out until rebels cause problems so as to get as much money from each BB point spent as possible. Controlling enemy provinces also benefits in that you gain the production income from that province times your infra level modifier. Control of provinces isn't typically that valuable since your modifier is less than 20% at the start. But it is worth something. Also, it can cause gold inflation if you take control of a gold province. And it can remove or reduce gold inflation if you take control of enough enemy provinces for enough production income to offset the gold income.

    Examples of very good early game countries and alliances for looting by tiny nations are Spain, China, England/Burgundy, Poland/Lithuania, Timurid Empire/The Kaliphate/Delhi. I tend to like these nations best because the cost to income ratio is most favorable. I have never DoWed the French alliance, maybe there is something to that but I think that mostly it is hard to access all the territory without getting into some serious fighting. The Ottomans have pretty low annual taxes and very many troops that would either make it to your territory or would plug up whatever area of military access you might find. Mameluks and Golden Horde are possibilities, but not the richest; basically you nearly break even on costs if you fight for a CoT. Hungary is also a lesser possibility. Naples/Aragon is just so scattered you cannot get around to all the lootable territory without serious fighting and naval attrition. What typically makes a country profitable for looting is that there are a large amount of provinces high in annual tax that are close to one another. You can run around dodging AI battles in a large arena of territory. Tuscany/Dutchy of Athens/Papal States/Modena or some such Italian alliance would be profitable partly for looting but mostly for peace resolution if 100% peace can be achieved.

  12. #12
    General ws2_32's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Congratulations on your game. Albania is a real mess of a country for sure. You managed to gain Albania some nice lands. The cost of doing so has been horrendous, IMHO. With twenty-one BB points and 60% inflation by 1431, I wouldn't say your chances of WC are very good. You don't have manpower, money, or CB shields. Your stability cost is way too high. So what do you do from this point in 1431?

    To begin with, you certainly have to take care of Serbia. It is your early, skyrocketing BB count that is likely responsible for making new enemies. I don't see how a little country like Serbia might drive you to bankruptcy. You don't have to lift a finger to fight Ragusa, or Venice. AI allies don't typically help each other unless they do it arbitrarily, fighting you to get through the territory you are seizing in order to get to the other side. There isn't any reason for Ragusa or Venice to move into Serbian territory. How much army do you currently have? Just concentrate all your effort on a 100% victory over Serbia. Avoid fighting any other troops for any reason. If they attack in significant numbers, just flee, so long as you can avoid losing troops to attrition. If Ragusa or Venice takes control of one or more of your provinces, so what? You get peace with all nations when you make peace with Serbia. Of course you have to be concerned with giving too many victory percentages to Ragusa or Venice so that a peace demand could drive down your stability. What is your stability cost anyway, like 350$? Yikes!

    You should be able to avoid Ragusa or Venice getting much victory percentages; victory over Serbia should be quick. Demand military access, money, and perhaps vassalship. Making Serbia a vassal is perhaps not the best idea since Serbia is the only nation on which you have a CB shield. You would probably like for them to be in alliance with someone and would probably like to be able to DoW them to save on BB points. Along the same line of thinking you wouldn't want to take ownership of Kosovo; not to mention Kosovo is yet another Orthodox province. Having so much Orthodox territory will prohibit you from a lot of diplomatic maneuvers, i.e. DoWing Catholic nations, DoWing without CB, leaving alliances, canceling military access, breaking royal marriages, and my favorite the break truce. The stability costs and/or lost opportunities will probably outweigh the value of the provinces. But you did pick some gems; the cream of the crop in the Orthodox lands.

    Now lets discuss some possible future goals for you. Possibly you could DoW Hungary for purpose of looting. Unless they have taken Istria from Venice, they will be unable to harm you. If they have been weakened in war with Venice or are in war with another nation at the time you DoW them, you might have a chance to take Pest. And you might force vassalize Hungary for greater income plus CB opportunities. Then you might DoW Poland or Lithuania for looting some big bucks. So either you would be looting Hungary/Croatia and Poland/Lithuania at the same time, or you would first go for 100% victory over Hungary and keep them occupied and looted for some ten years taking Pest and military access, then DoW Poland/Lithuania in a separate war. Of course it would be better if you could somehow manufacture CB on the nations in question. You have so many BB points already. What is good about Pest is that it is a valuable, Catholic, grain province. It provides a haven where the Ottomans and many other potential enemies cannot reach you; preventing said enemies from gaining a 100% victory in even the worst of situations. It is a territory where you could rapidly produce troops. Or it is not uncommon for Austria to bee allied with Hungary, so maybe you would like to try for Steiermark, not as good as a secluded province since Venice would have no problem reaching you there. But it is more valuable. Maybe you like both Pest and Steiermark.

    Another thing to think about is the possible annexation of Naples. An alliance with Aragon and Naples makes this pretty easy and a pretty likely target. You lower relations with Naples and raise relations with Aragon; then DoW another nation like Hungary for example. Aragon must have positive and more favorable relations with you than with both Naples and Hungary for it to work completely. And Naples must have negative or significantly less favorable relations to you than with either Aragon or Hungary. Naples will likely dishonor the alliance. Then you DoW Naples and invite Aragon into war against Naples on the same day, before Aragon has a chance to invite Naples back into the alliance. Aragon honors the alliance and for sure Aragon is going to clean Naples out. Let Aragon take control of both of Naples' provinces. Then Aragon will likely take ownership of Apulia. That leaves you still at war with Naples and all you have to do is have 1 or 2k or army sitting in Napoli when peace is signed to make sure that Naples cannot build troops that you might have to fight. Then you move a few thousand troops in to complete the siege. You can annex Naples in on war with CB and without a fight. Naples is a very valuable, manpower rich province in Italy. Attacking Spain from Naples around 1510 is a possibility. In order to gain territory in low-cost BB way, look to the Pagans and new colonies.

    Having Naples allows you to get into alliance with other Italian countries for purpose of manufacturing CB via the same DoW after dishonor mechanism. Italian wars could gain you a lot of money. But I don't know the value of taking territory; your BB points are too high to take much very soon. And the value of manpower for very small countries is over-rated in the early game. Manpower is most valuable when it allows you to get more buildable troops. Greater support is nice, but you can support your troops in other ways, i.e. grain production, grain trade, and quite simply more income (read pay through the nose). As a small country, you already get 12k buildable troops a year. That is the minimum. I just discovered a bug that buildable troops are not effected by changes in Quantity/Quality settings, despite what buildable manpower is reported by hovering over the manpower icon at the top of the screen. You would need a total of over 12 points of manpower from provinces before you saw even the slightest increase in the number of troops you could build each year. If you took over every manpower contributing province of Italy you would just begin to see an improvement in your buildable troops. How could you even hope to gain more buildable troops without already kicking off the BB wars?

    So how do you prepare for BB war? You cannot build many troops per year without more manpower. You cannot get enough manpower to show an improvement in buildable troops without kicking off the BB wars. You cannot afford to kick off the BB wars until you have built at least 300k cavalry (upwards of 500k to 1 million is better). The answer is that you have to build and support an ever increasing size of an army for decades. A tiny bit more in manpower helps only a very little in dealing with such enormous support costs. Manpower increases for a country like Albania are of little importance. Having Naples might help a little as it allows for a little larger manpower reserve. Who wants to be bothered to be required to remember to build 4k troops every 4 months?

    The limiting factor for WC is money. WC can be purchased. You don't need territory or manpower to kick off the BB wars. If you had the money, you would only require as much territory as is necessary to build, stockpile, and supply your huge initial army. Heck, you could stockpile your army on ships. If you had enough money and build capacity, you could prepare for BB wars owning only a couple of port provinces. That could be an AAR mission, see how long it takes a country like Byzantium to conquer the world if they had like 1 billion ducats to start; but you wouldn't be allowed to gain a single BB point or take a single province until the BB wars began. That would demonstrate my point, it is money (treasury and income) that allows for WC. From the minimum balance of the 1 billion ducats one could deduce the price tag of the world.

    Of course once you kick off the BB wars, you want to concentrate efforts on gaining manpower rich territory. You eventually need more manpower and more buildable troops to conquer the world; but you gain the manpower you require as the BB wars progress. And mercenaries are available every month if you have the money.

    So anyway, it is money that you are after. You want loot, you want peace money, vassals, trade, and only the most valuable provinces. Well you do want security too, i.e. owning a province like Pest. You have to think about economic trade-offs. For example, what good are Balkan provinces and provinces in Asia Minor if it costs more money to defend them and more money in stability costs than they bring in? Think also about opportunity costs. If you spend 6 BB points annexing Byzantium, then that is 6 less BB points you could otherwise spend annexing Naples or looting Hungary for a decade and taking Pest. Also what good is any province if it adds a greater percentage cost toward tech costs than it contributes as a percentage of income? Well, some provinces also help support costs, help avoid attrition, help in gaining certain allies, help as stepping stones to the next destination, allow the annexation of a prized province, or help in other strategic ways. It all comes down to economic decisions, do the benefits of taking such and such territory outweigh the initial war costs, opportunity costs of the BB points, opportunity cost of demanding cash or vassalship in a peace deal, increased stability costs, increased tech costs, defense costs of the province, and revolt potential of the province?

    For tiny countries, the answer to the above question is typically, "No." There are only a very few provinces that meet criteria for ownership. And that is why my empire becomes a scattered selection of CoTs, gold provinces, key ports, valuable grain provinces, maybe a manpower rich territory or two, some sub-700 colonies, etc.

    If I was playing your game, I would probably find a way to lose some of those territories you have already taken. You can create a vassal out of Hellas and Morea, can't you? Then you could let Macedonia defect to Hellas. You could request military access from Hellas, so you could still get to Thrace by land even if Hellas broke vassalship. By the way, countries always grant military access if your relations are like +180. You can even get military access for +70 relations, depending on circumstances. When Byzantium refused to let you pass to Asia Minor, you could have bribed them. I would like to see Rumelia defect to Wallachia and Smyrna defect to Karaman; the Ottomans might get Smyrna instead. I would keep Thrace, but I never would have taken it at such extreme BB cost.

    I would be avoiding Orthodox territory. That would make taking Alexandria and Isfahan more attractive. Take Basrah and get military access through Mameluks and Timurids. Vassalize Delhi if the are in the Timurid alliance. Don't forget about DoWing Poland/Lithuania for some good loot if you can manage access through Hungary. DoW and vassalize Chagatai Khanate also getting military access, you probably would already have been at war when fighting the Timurids. DoW and vassalize China. Next is DoW Portugal if they still exist to get maps and Oporto or Tago maybe vassalize or get military access, depending. Next is DoW Spain around 1510 to get maps, a CoT in Andalusia plus Tago, Toledo, and or Oporto depending. Maybe you get military access from Spain. Next you DoW Central American nations taking everything but their capitals. Next you might DoW South Americans, maybe you need to DoW Spain once more to get maps and more Iberian territory first. At some point you kick back get infra 5 and build a trade and colonial empire. Your income keeps climbing as you stockpile troops. Raise land tech, then kick off the BB wars.

  13. #13
    General ws2_32's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Maybe you would also like some advice on ways you might play Albania from the start? If I were to start with Albania in 1419, I would follow a similar course as stated above. I would really want Pest for survival; Steiermark would be a plus too. That involves war on Serbia. I don't know that the alliance with Naples is really what you want. It is nice for gaining CB on Naples later on for purpose of eventually annexing Naples. I would really want Napoli too. If you leave the alliance with Naples, Dutch of Athens and an Italian alliance might come after you. That would be great, you can take on the Dutchy even without taking a loan. Don't annex that territory but go for the peace money. If you control Hellas when Tuscany takes control of Albania, Tuscany doesn't demand more than a couple of ducats for peace if that's all you have in your treasury. Don't fight Tuscany troops, just flee. Other Italians might come after you if Genoa or Papal States are in the alliance, but it's the same as with Tuscany (actually Genoa might be a problem, not sure). If you keep control of Hellas for a decade or more you can get hundreds of ducats in peace resolution. And the Ottomans aren't smart enough to be able to attack you as your troops sit in Hellas either. You get peace with the Ottomans for next to nothing when they take control of Albania, just the same way.

    With money, you might just set out to take Pest and Steiermark. An alliance with Wallachia and Moldova might be best. DoW Serbia and invite Wallachia and Moldova into the war. DoW Hungary but don't invite your allies. You still have military access through Wallachia and Moldova because the are at war together with Serbia. That access can help when running in and out of Hungary's territory. The access is likely short-lived however because your allies make peace with Serbia after the Serbian capital falls. Just be sure you gain control of Kosovo then seize the Serbian capital yourself.

    I'm not sure of the best way to begin the game with Albania. You might want to go after Serbia and Hungary ASAP, while Hungary is still at war with Venice. You might want to keep Naples as an ally and take a loan to defeat Serbia. Or you might want to leave the alliance with Naples. If you leave the alliance, you might want to be ensured to joining the alliance lead by Wallachia ASAP. Or you might want Duchy of Athens to see our weakness and DoW you. Or maybe an alliance with Bosnia would be faster to set up.

    When you conquer Serbia, maybe you do want to take Kosovo. But then you would want to lose it to someone for CB purposes so that you could keep DoWing for more loot. Like losing it to Lithuania, they could reach you by ship after all. Maybe with an alliance with Wallachia and Moldova you would get into war with Poland without DoWing them. If you had military access through Hungary (when taking Pest) you could get some loot without having to go through your allies' territories where massive enemy pile-ups are likely.

    Anyway there are a lot of variables and mutually exclusive scenarios possible. Let me just sum up possible goals for a more successful campaign:

    1. 100% victory over Dutchy of Athens:
    ---- (Dutch may DoW you if you leave alliance with Naples)
    ---- gaining you peace money.
    2. 100% victory over Serbia:
    ---- gaining military access, peace money, and possibly Kosovo.
    3. 100% victory over Hungary:
    ---- gaining you loot, Pest, vassalship of Hungary, and
    ---- refund of money spent to improve relations for military access.
    4. War with Lithuania:
    ---- gaining you loot,
    ---- possibly loosing Kosovo to Lithuania (if taken earlier),
    ---- possibly losing all money not spent (so spend it all).
    5. Military annexation of Naples (could be a CB war if still in alliance):
    ---- gaining you Napoli.
    6. 100% victory over Mameluks:
    ---- gaining you loot, Alexandria, peace money, and military access.
    7. 100% victory over The Kaliphate/Timurid Empire/Chagatai Khanate/Delhi:
    ---- gaining you loot, maps, Basrah, Isfahan, lots of peace money,
    ---- lots of military access, vassalize Delhi, vassalize Chagatai Khanate.
    8. 99% victory over China:
    ---- gaining you loot, maps, peace money, military access, vassalize China.
    9. Substantial to 100% victory over Portugal around 1500:
    ---- gaining you a little loot, a little peace money, The Azores, and Oporto.
    10. Substantial to 100% victory over Spain around 1510:
    ---- gaining you loot, maps, a CoT and Shipyard in Andalusia,
    ---- possibly Toledo, Oporto, and/or Tago,
    ---- possibly a Caribbean port or trade post,
    ---- possible sub-700 colony in The Canary Islands,
    ---- possibly military access.
    11. 100% victory over Aztec Empire/Maya/Zapotec:
    ---- gaining you loot, maps, peace money, Jalisco, Saltillo, Michoacan, Tlaxcala,
    ---- Tehuacan, Campeche, and Guatemala, possibly military access
    ---- from Aztec Empire and/or Zapotec. Note: forget Tehuantepec.
    12. 100% victory over Aztec Empire/Maya/Zapotec:
    ---- gaining you lots more peace money.
    13. Annex Aztec Empire:
    ---- gaining you a CoT in Tenochtitlan (aka Zacetecas).
    14. Substantial to 100% victory over Spain around 1540.
    ---- gaining you loot, maps,
    ---- possibly Toledo, Oporto, and/or Tago,
    ---- possible Caribbean port or trade post,
    ---- possible sub-700 colony in The Canary Islands,
    ---- possibly military access.
    15. 100% victory over Inca Empire/Chimu:
    ---- gaining you everything short of annexation,
    ---- possibly annex Inca Empire.
    16. Build colonies, stockpile cavalry, gain infra 5, gain trade 4,
    ---- raise land tech, increase treasury, form key alliance.
    17. Kick off BB wars, hire mercenaries,
    ---- go for manpower rich provinces in Europe,
    ---- possibly reduce diplomatic drain by:
    ---- ceding non-European provinces like Alexandria, Basrah, and Isfahan
    ---- (non-European countries stop DoWing you then),
    ---- Annex Aztec Empire/Zapotec/Maya and Chimu/Inca Empire.
    18. Conquer the world.

    Of course there are lots of opportunities that may arise during the history of your nation that may allow you to carve the Ottomans up. You might gain territories at one BB apiece if the Ottomans DoW you, then you could redistribute the territory and lose 1 BB apiece by creating vassals or losing the territory to Karaman, Byzantium, or Trebizond. Maybe your allies would carve up some territory. Maybe you could annex a Turkish Thrace with a CoT at some point. Also, you might be able to have lots more fun in wars in Italy. There could be lots of variation; the above is only a rough guideline of what might be best. This is all quite similar to goals at the outset of my Trebizond game.

  14. #14
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jul 2001
    Behind you!
    Well, things don't look that bright to me I'm afraid

    I don't have much time right now, so I'll write down only the most important problems, and perhaps write some more later.

    You say I should vassalise China. Isn't that a bit far fetched? I mean I played as Chagatai and Manchuria, and the most I could do is take some 3-4 provinces and had to end the war quickly because the 100 Chineese army was approaching. How am I supposed to vassalise China from a country from the other side of the world, with pathetic manpower and no ways of constantly sending reinforcements. First of all I guess I should send small 4k armies throughout the Chagatai desert because the rest would die of attrition. And still I would have to fight another 10 years just to cover all their provinces (to make 99%) and that would be possible only after I defeat some 100-200k Chineese. Even if I don't have to capture all their provinces, I would lose points every time I take a defeat. This seems to me as an impossibility (although I'm not sure, but I think I remember you did it )

    I played another 20 years, and I got nowhere during this time. My inflation now is 68%, my manpower is ONLY 4 (I guess the Balkans have low mp provinces) and sometimes I don't even have the money to buy soldiers. Well ok, I do have the money, but only if I pull the money slider to the far right, and not research anything.

    I'm not sure if I should write this, because I didn't cover it with the story, but nevermind, I might as well give up if I don't expand in the next few decades.
    I've DoWed the Mamelukes, and in the same moment got DoWed by the Ottomans. OK, Skenderbeg was waiting to diembark at Alexandria, but I got him back to Thrace because the Ottomans were kicking my ass there. I lost some 20.000 infantry in two battles, and even Skenderbeg's all-cavalry got defeated by a noname leader. The Ottomans have the same tech as I do, but their morale is Strong, while mine is Disciplined. That is not fair! When I lost my armies, I got DoWed by Croatia and Ragusa.
    Nevermind. In the following 7 years I vassalised the Ottomans, and took Bulgaria from them, but I also lost Kosovo to Ragusa (took that in the Venetian wars right after I finished the AAR). My army was destroyed, my economy is still horrible, and now I have to start all over again, to try and take Alexandria. My BB point is only 22 - I guess I lose a few during the years, and also because of losing Kosovo.

    Not very good. And it's already 1461, and soon my neighbors will develop new technologies, while I hope for getting to infra 2 in 1480. The stability cost is 308$ - not that bad, although I hadn't seen +3 for two decades (thanx to events)

    Oh, and something interesting. In January the Ottomans offered 350$ and two provinces for peace. In June I took Trabzon, their last province, and asked for Bulgaria, vassalisation and 300$ (=90%). They accepted, but I only got something like 70$. WHY???????????? They couldn't spend it, they didn't have provinces to spend! This is not fair! I was struggling with revolts throughout an entire decade just to make the Ottomans collect more money for me, and in the end I get a lousy 70$!
    I had their provinces covered for a long time, but I had only one army for capturing, because the rest was busy fighting the rebels in Thrace, Makedonia, Morea and Smyrna, which broke out all the time despite only 1% RR.
    Walt Disney had wooden teeth.
    The plastic things on the end of shoelaces are called aglets.
    The Sanskrit word for war translates as 'wanting more cows.'

    For more interesting facts visit the Random facts site

  15. #15
    General ws2_32's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2001
    You really have to make a study of my Trebizond AAR to figure out how to get China vassalized "from the other side of the world." It can be done; and it isn't really that difficult. By the time you get there, China has less than 70k troops with less than 10k of that in cavalry. And you should have a strong tech advantage at that time. You can pump in 16k cavalry per month through Chagatai Khanate suffering at most 1% attrition for some troops. Most Chagatai provinces have a supply of 4, meaning 8k troops can stand in the province without attrition (remember the default leader supply bonus is 4; 4+4 = 8). Cavalry can run two provinces a month; 2x8 = 16. To get over the mountains without supply attrition requires a little movement attrition so you might suffer 1% attiriton for some troops. You amass troops inside China as you dodge Chinese troops. If you own Basrah and Isfahan, you can build a few reinforcements there. At the outset you would have to have a standing army of 80k to 100k cavalry, amassed during previous wars.

    At first, do not fight Chinese troops unless you are far outnumbering them. anihillation is the objective. Anihillate new Chinese recruits as they are produced. Dodge the primary Chinese army. China breaks his force up a little to chase you. anihillate the small bands. Flee if the big army caches you. Whittle down his primary army; playing cat and mouse. You have cavalry; China has infantry; you are faster; you anihillate anything you outnumber in the plains. Once you take out the bulk of Chinese cavalry victory is pretty much assured. Eventually you have to take on the primary Chinese force. Surround and attack his army in the plains from all sides, arriving on the first of the month. With tech advantage you can easily anihilate some 50k Chinese infantry with about 60k of your cavalry in less than a couple weeks of battle. You have time to split your cavalry back up to avoid month end attrition. Watch the battle intently, if it is going poorly retreat to a high supply area split up and try again. It is best if the primary Chinese army is not the only Chinese army around, maybe leave a little straggler or new recruit somewhere. I suspect there is an AI cheat I would call the "last remaining army bonus" making the last remaining army fight as if Henry V was leading them.

    With all enemies anihilated, cover everything and anihilate the new recruits. You only have enough troops for siege progress in one or two provinces at first. Some of your new recruits come along and you can get some more sieges going. One or two sieges complete and now you don't have to cover those spaces, so you have more troops available. You siege more and more. You can take control of all mainland China; give priority to the capital province so you can vassalize at a moments notice. It takes 8 to 10 years of war and that is just what you want. You get 8 to 10 years of massive looting. You wouldn't want to end the war any sooner anyway. You want the war to take a very long time, until rebellions are causing serious problems.

  16. #16
    General ws2_32's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2001
    Originally posted by juszuf7
    ...my manpower is ONLY 4 (I guess the Balkans have low mp provinces) and sometimes I don't even have the money to buy soldiers. Well ok, I do have the money, but only if I pull the money slider to the far right, and not research anything.
    You must learn that manpower isn't limiting the size of your army but money is. Manpower only helps with support costs and manpower reserve until you get more than 12 manpower from provinces. If you owned ALL of Italy you might show a slight increase in available troops.

    ...Skenderbeg was waiting to diembark at Alexandria, but I got him back to Thrace because the Ottomans were kicking my ass there. I lost some 20.000 infantry in two battles.
    Just as I thought, the territories you have taken are more costly to defend than they are worth. The Ottomans keep trying for Thrace unless the owner of it is really powerful.

    The stability cost is 308$ - not that bad, although I hadn't seen +3 for two decades (thanx to events)
    Over 300$ for a stability is expensive. It is all relative to your monthly income. I mean, 300$ for stability is not bad if your income is 40$ a month. But your income is not that good I'll bet. But at least your monarch bonus can recoup a stability level in two years. Still, if your stability costs increase much more without a big boost in income you will never see +3 stability again.

    This is not fair! I was struggling with revolts throughout an entire decade just to make the Ottomans collect more money for me, and in the end I get a lousy 70$!
    Yes, Ottomans are not a good source of loot, peace money, or territory. They don't have to mint all their coins. They can invest in research. But I suspect that you invited your allies into the war. Peace money is split with your allies or if you wait very long your allies will take the lion's share of the money in separate peace. Early fighting with Ottoman Empire is mostly good for sending your country down in flames. Well if you were Greek Orthodox with CB shields on the provinces some Ottoman territories might be worth the trouble.

    ...busy fighting the rebels in Thrace, Makedonia, Morea and Smyrna
    Yes, again those provinces you took are not exactly helping you are they? If you take provinces that are not adjacent to one another then you don't have to fight rebels. Let the rebels take control of your province then the move to a neighboring country and it's their problem to deal with. You just come by later and seize the province to regain it from the rebels. It's best to have military access to neighboring provinces so you can get between your provinces without ships and also so troops aren't anihilated by surprise uprising of revolts (must have a place to retreat to).

    How I would fight a war with Ottoman Empire assuming I have Albania and Pest is: Allow Ottoman Empire to take control of Albania. They lose tens of thousands of troops to attrition. I still have Pest so they have a big 8% or 10% victory. So I wait for them to make a demand. If I have no money in the treasury, they can only demand a white peace. Um, okay. If Pest revolts, my government collapses and I'm at peace. Um, okay. Do you see why Pest is so nice?

    Once you take Naples or Alexandria, you have to actually fight Ottoman Empire to prevent loss of territory. By that time, you will have a mighty army thanks to looting other countries. If Ottoman Empire even bothers to DoW you is doubtful if you are powerful and don't have Thrace or something. But if they do, you can take all their territories for purpose of getting rid of the territories to Karaman at a net gain of no more than 4 BB points. You can create some vassals too. Then Ottomans are so weak you never worry about them again; maybe you even annex an Ottoman Thrace. Anway, I'm repeating myself.
    Last edited by ws2_32; 14-10-2002 at 03:17.

  17. #17
    Serf juszuf7's Avatar

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    Jul 2001
    Behind you!
    When, for example, Morea revolted, I left that province to be captured and held rebel-controlled for some two years before I took it back. That was because I had to fight the Ottomans, and couldn't spare to fight rebels. So, in a way, I did just as you said.

    Now as for Hungary and Pest. I started a new game. I built a few cavalry, then took out a loan and built some more. I left the alliance with Naples and joined Venice and Bosnia. So I declared war on Serbia and took Kosovo and vassalised it, I rebuilt my army, took another loan and built as much cavalry as possible. In the end I had like 20k. That is the max I could do with the two loans and the 60$ I gained from Serbia.

    I declared war on Hungary. Austria dishonored its alliance, so it was only Hungary and Croatia left. I attacked, destroyed like 10k and began a siege in Banat. I covered Pest and began a siege in the province left to it. I won a few battles after.

    I needed only 3 months to capture Banat and another province. And then something like 30k Hungarians attacked me and annihilated all 3 of my armies. I didn't want to take out another loan to strenghten my armies, although I could and then I probably could vassalise Hungary. But you said I could do it without bankrupcy. So I fought again and in the end settled for paying 0$ for peace, while I didn't gain any province and the Dutchy of Athens declared war on me and Parma or something took Albania from me and the end.

    I'm interested how would you take Pest from Hungary without going bankrupt? I cannot loot Lithuania or Poland because I have to pass many countries (and I don't have the money or strength to pass them). I don't have ships, but the alliance with Venice could help in the future to take Italy. In the end it doesn't matter, because I lost the game. So I think it's not likely to vassalise Hungary and take Pest without going bankrupt. Any other ideas?
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  18. #18
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    May 2001
    When, for example, Morea revolted, I left that province to be captured and held rebel-controlled for some two years before I took it back. That was because I had to fight the Ottomans, and couldn't spare to fight rebels. So, in a way, I did just as you said.
    But when the rebels left Morea, they moved to Hellas, right? So you still had to fight the rebels it was just a matter of time. Those rebels had to be fought sooner or later.

    I'm interested how would you take Pest from Hungary without going bankrupt?
    I haven't done actually this myself; but I believe it should be possible. The key is patience (and cowardice if you could call it that). Use the loot from your enemy to build an ever larger army while avoiding any big battles. Only squash little detachments. Whittle your enemy down while building yourself up. By raising war taxes you can build more than 1k cavalry at a time in Albania; you just need the money. You get money by looting. It might take a while, probably eight to ten years of cat and mouse with the AI. Don't worry, if you lose victory percentages, Hungary cannot reach you, so if worst comes to worst, you either get white peace from five years of no war activity or your government collapses due to a revolt in your capital. Either way it is free peace. If first you don't succeed, try, try again. I'll try this myself.

  19. #19
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    May 2001
    ...while I didn't gain any province and the Dutchy of Athens declared war on me and Parma or something took Albania from me and the end.
    When the Dutchy of Athens DoWs you, attack the Dutchy of Athens immediately. You must annihilate all the Dutchy's troops. Yes, Tuscany (aka Parma) will attack you and take Albania. It is important not to fight Tuscany's troops in Hellas or in Albania. Wherever they show up run away. They seize Albania and you seize Hellas. The siege in Hellas will almost always complete before Tuscany can complete a siege in Albania; Albania is a mountain fortress. You must control Hellas when Tuscany gains control of Albania. Then, Tuscany has only a small victory over you and demands the little cash you have in the treasury. You get cheap peace. But you keep control of Hellas for a long time as the Dutchy of Athens' peace money builds. Go over and loot Hellas every 13 months. Having control of Hellas keeps Ottoman Empire and many enemies from annexing you in the same way it stops Tuscany from annexing you. It is a survival mechanism for as long as you are at war with the Dutchy of Athens.

    This tip has good a very success rate. I already tried it lots of times. I lost once when Tuscany's siege completed first, fluke. But it wasn't game over, Tuscany vassalized me. Who in their right mind would want to annex Albania anyway? Well, for the AI it's random I suppose. Hey, I can give up a tiny amount of income and be a vassal for awhile. It's not that big a deal, I wouldn't intend to get a whole lot of money through taxes anytime soon. Mostly, I'd be getting money by looting and peace resolution.

    Oh yeah, you can generally annihilate the little initial band of Dutchy of Athen's troops with 3k of cavalry when you attack in the plains of Hellas. If the first attack fails, merge the surviving cavalry that return to Albania with your infantry; and send in the full force for the attack.
    Last edited by ws2_32; 15-10-2002 at 09:43.

  20. #20
    General ws2_32's Avatar

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    May 2001
    Austria dishonored its alliance, so it was only Hungary and Croatia left.
    Maybe you can get worsened relations with Austria first by offering a royal marriage that they will refuse. Set Catholic tolerance to zero from the start, something like that. You want Austria to honor the alliance, so they must dislike you enough to want a war with you. Generally, they must like you less than Hungary, perhaps a significant difference.

    Oh, and Austria would have to have positive relations with the country you DoW in addition to having more favorable relations with them than with you. So maybe you would have to DoW Croatia. Whether a nation will honor or dishonor is really quite predictable if you examine all the relevant diplomatic relations. This predictability is so important to manufacturing CB and so many things.
    Last edited by ws2_32; 15-10-2002 at 10:07.

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