Age of Colonialism

[Alistus]

Tried 2.1 with USA and Germany. In both games i noticed that Opium and dye supplies didn't really match the demand. This led to certain POPs not getting luxury goods and factories not being able to produce regular clothes leading to very small supply. Also in my USA game my nation was struck by high levels of unemployment despite having high industry score. Basically RGOs weren't able to provide jobs and POPs weren't converting to craftsmen etc. at sufficient rates. Perhaps POP growth rate could be made in to smaller or RGOs made bigger or less RGO size decline events?

[Alyosha]

I am very pleased with this mod, but want to pose one question: Has anyone achieved the generic "Embrace Westernization" with the requirement of 70% literacy? Playing as Persia, I have mostly prioritized the education/research techs but have only 24.7% literacy in 1881. I used my sole NF to promote clergy from the get go, fully financing education. Has anyone achieved 70% literacy with an unciv, starting from below 10% literacy?

[Papineau 37]

I am very pleased with this mod, but want to pose one question: Has anyone achieved the generic "Embrace Westernization" with the requirement of 70% literacy? Playing as Persia, I have mostly prioritized the education/research techs but have only 24.7% literacy in 1881. I used my sole NF to promote clergy from the get go, fully financing education. Has anyone achieved 70% literacy with an unciv, starting from below 10% literacy?

In one of my game with USA, I saw Hawaii westernize in the early 1860's! I know they have high literacy, but still impressive

[RedRoverMan]

Since when do you need 70% LIT to Westernize, IIRC it's only 40 prestige + 50 military score needed for the generic westernization system, unless you're trying something uniquye like the Meiji Restoration, which in that case I have no idea.

[Van Diemen]

I am very pleased with this mod, but want to pose one question: Has anyone achieved the generic "Embrace Westernization" with the requirement of 70% literacy? Playing as Persia, I have mostly prioritized the education/research techs but have only 24.7% literacy in 1881. I used my sole NF to promote clergy from the get go, fully financing education. Has anyone achieved 70% literacy with an unciv, starting from below 10% literacy?

It is in general much more easy to get a civilized status compared to vanilla Victoria II, indeed in this mod we put the literacy demand at 70% to give every country a fair chance of civilizing. The high prestige demand as set in vanilla really made civilizing only possible for the player who focused on gaining a civilized status, the AI didn't seem to cope, especially the smaller AI controlled countries. I did a lot of playtests and if you focus enough on gaining a civilized status, using clergy and especially by using some techs that really aid your literacy (such as biologism) you can civilize as any country maybe even by 1900, no matter whether you start even under 10% literacy. Of course the size of your country might make it more difficult.

[Van Diemen]

There should be events that would make GB give up Washington to USA if they happen to colonize it. Also events giving up whatever colonies remain British after release of Canada. Sometimes they release Canada while still colonizing in the north and then those lands stay British forever.

Thanks for your report about this issue. So, you were able to see Canada being released? That's nice, we currently think it does not happen enough, so we adjusted some of these new decisions. We will look into your issue once we finish our current Taiping project.

Again thanks to Rizzmond and Van Diemen for a most excellent mod!

I have three humble requests, and one amateur suggestion for you:

1. Could you please consider to add Norway as an satellite of Sweden?

Thanks for your suggestion. But, what's the reason for doing that? Is there some event that triggers this release? I often see Norway becoming independent from Sweden by nationalist rebels and that should not result in Norway becoming a satellite.

2. Could you please consider to incorporate the Bakumatsu mod into AoC?

I never played with this mod, so I don't really know what to expect from it. Maybe in future we can add it, but I cannot give you any guarantee that we will do so. Furthermore, we can also only add it if the person who made the mod allows it of course.

3. Could you please consider to steal the PDM's "solution" to the Mexican-Texan war?

What's this solution? Care to explain a bit more?

4. This is an amateur suggestion: I absolutely hate the ease that you can invade China through Burma. One solution Iv used to atleast make it more difficult, is to change which province that belong to which state.

What Iv done is to move the provinces "Puato" and " Myitkyina" to the state of "Ava," and the provinces "Magwe" and " Prome" to "Haka."

By doing so, Britain will have to annex Burma to achieve a common border with China in this area. Ultimately this happens anyway, but atleast somewhat later.

I share your feeling about the fact that Britain can too easily cross Burma into China, I will discuss this with Rizzmond and see what he thinks, however I can say that we are currently putting a lot of effort into China and that AI Britain will be distracted a bit longer from conquering Yunnan by adding the Opium Wars.

Tried 2.1 with USA and Germany. In both games i noticed that Opium and dye supplies didn't really match the demand. This led to certain POPs not getting luxury goods and factories not being able to produce regular clothes leading to very small supply. Also in my USA game my nation was struck by high levels of unemployment despite having high industry score. Basically RGOs weren't able to provide jobs and POPs weren't converting to craftsmen etc. at sufficient rates.

Ok, I noted this. About the dye demand, do you mean that dye is in short supply or not being bought? And about your problem concerning employment, you mean that convertion to crafstmen is too low compared to natural pop growth? Maybe you could post some screenshots indicating the problem?

[Dagfinn]

Thanks for your suggestion. But, what's the reason for doing that? Is there some event that triggers this release? I often see Norway becoming independent from Sweden by nationalist rebels and that should not result in Norway becoming a satellite.

I meant from the beginning. Norway should start 1836 as an Swedish sattelite with a alliance. GB should have cordial or friendly relation to Norway.

This would be historical appropriate.

What's this solution? Care to explain a bit more?

Im not quite sur, but I think the Texan army are made tougher (leaders/tech), and the Mexicans are made weaker (leaders/tech/size).

I share your feeling about the fact that Britain can too easily cross Burma into China, I will discuss this with Rizzmond and see what he thinks, however I can say that we are currently putting a lot of effort into China and that AI Britain will be distracted a bit longer from conquering Yunnan by adding the Opium Wars.

I wish PD would add impassable borders

[RedRoverMan]

In 1836 Norway WAS an independent country with its own administrative institutions, however, it was under a PERSONAL UNION with the King of Sweden as head of State, effectively, the only control Sweden was able to exert over Norway was foreign policy, and too a much lesser extent economic monopolization, however that didn't exactly go too well for the Swedes ;-)

So the most accurate way to model those circumstances in game would be to have Norway as a Satellite of Sweden.

[novapaddy]

I think the minus 75% event for colonies is a bit severe. Why bother colonising at all at that rate?

I've taken Crete and Suez from Egypt to give me early game access to the Indian Ocean and East Africa, and have my eyes on Ethiopia, and it's not 1840 yet (playing as Russia.)

Just invaded Ethiopia with an 18 Army, they had 9... suddenly they have nearly 50, just spawned right in front of my eyes...

It's early game, and Russia is very weak... Am I supposed to sit here BORED for years until I can figure out the ideal settings to actually build Clerks and Clergy... and trying to build an industrial base... am I not supposed to be Colonising the fuzzy wuzzies??

Spawning an almost 50 army (when added together) to defend their territory... hmm.. games seems a bit lop-sided if you ask me?

I know its still probably down to Vanilla and not your Mod, BUT

Comments appreciated...

[Alyosha]

if you focus enough on gaining a civilized status, using clergy and especially by using some techs that really aid your literacy (such as biologism) you can civilize as any country maybe even by 1900, no matter whether you start even under 10% literacy. Of course the size of your country might make it more difficult.

But doesn't this make the process a bit dull? I should just focus on culture techs and do nothing else, b/c any expansion, even into cultured territories, will slow the process down (especially for multi-ethnic empires). How many of the civilized countries have 70% literacy at game start (or by 1900 for that matter)?

I must say I liked having prestige as one of the requirements, as it represented the notion that other countries viewed the unciv's rise as legitimate. As it stands civilizing is research and nothing else.

[Van Diemen]

Just invaded Ethiopia with an 18 Army, they had 9... suddenly they have nearly 50, just spawned right in front of my eyes...

It's early game, and Russia is very weak... Am I supposed to sit here BORED for years until I can figure out the ideal settings to actually build Clerks and Clergy... and trying to build an industrial base... am I not supposed to be Colonising the fuzzy wuzzies??

Spawning an almost 50 army (when added together) to defend their territory... hmm.. games seems a bit lop-sided if you ask me?

I know its still probably down to Vanilla and not your Mod, BUT

Comments appreciated...

The 50 or so brigades that you observed are probably the mobilised units of Ethiopia, just to keep you from easily destroying this "weak" unciv. Eventhough uncivs did not have the military technology nor efficient arms and mobilisation doesn't mean that they cannot force farmers and labourers into service. At least now you know better than trying to land grab uncivs.

Russia was by then quite backwards, so starting out a bit weak economically is quite correct. It should take you some considerable amount of effort and time in order to improve the economy. Also I don't agree that Russia is weak, once you research freedom of trade you should be doing quite well. Also Russia can spam massive numbers of mobilised troops early on, so they should be able to defend themselves pretty well from an invasion.

But doesn't this make the process a bit dull? I should just focus on culture techs and do nothing else, b/c any expansion, even into cultured territories, will slow the process down (especially for multi-ethnic empires). How many of the civilised countries have 70% literacy at game start (or by 1900 for that matter)?

I must say I liked having prestige as one of the requirements, as it represented the notion that other countries viewed the unciv's rise as legitimate. As it stands civilising is research and nothing else.

As said, we did this to help the AI otherwise it becomes a mere stochastic process, you are always free to choose any other tech and furthermore there are some techs that you also need to research in order to civilise. Indeed, I agree that most civilised countries have less literacy than demanded from an unciv to become civilised, however see this as your legitimation amongst the other civilised powers to accept you as being civilised as well.

[novapaddy]

The 50 or so brigades that you observed are probably the mobilised units of Ethiopia, just to keep you from easily destroying this "weak" unciv. Eventhough uncivs did not have the military technology nor efficient arms and mobilisation doesn't mean that they cannot force farmers and labourers into service. At least now you know better than trying to land grab uncivs.

Russia was by then quite backwards, so starting out a bit weak economically is quite correct. It should take you some considerable amount of effort and time in order to improve the economy. Also I don't agree that Russia is weak, once you research freedom of trade you should be doing quite well. Also Russia can spam massive numbers of mobilised troops early on, so they should be able to defend themselves pretty well from an invasion.
.

Van Diemen: Think I must have been getting tired... took a break and returned to the same game later...

Took lots more troops to Ethiopia, and took the necessary (cotton) provinces. Then took a couple of bits out of Eastern Africa from Oman, landing in Muscat to reinforce their compliance .... (Mogadishu and Lamu?). I'm researching Medicine now and am planning to take the whole Horn of Africa, which should improve my Fruit and Cotton trades...

MOD is much better than vanilla and better balanced. I've yet to have Britain declare war on me... But then again, I'm getting more knowledgeable of the game and watching my Infamy level...

Congrats on a job well done. Thanks

[Alyosha]

you are always free to choose any other tech

But that's not true - if the player is going to have any chance of making it to 70%, then he/she has to research the two cultural tech chains that increase literacy promotion and research speed. There's no flexibility in that.

Also, why does literacy make a civilized state?

[Van Diemen]

But that's not true - if the player is going to have any chance of making it to 70%, then he/she has to research the two cultural tech chains that increase literacy promotion and research speed. There's no flexibility in that.

What's the difference between the poor research of uncivs in our mod and vanilla Victoria II? If you want to keep in the tech race in vanilla this also required you to especially invest in techs that somehow increase research and we didn't alter any tech, so that argument is still valid. Furthermore, in vanilla with the prestige demands you could argue that this also forced you to invest a lot of your valuable research points in gaining weak prestige techs.

And about your question regarding literacy and civilization: I regard literacy as the best indicator of how developed a nation can be in the modern world. I'm not saying this is foolproof in case of Russia which starts with poor literacy but is already civlized, but it does work nicely to get Japan civilized way sooner than other nations. Of course we are always open for suggestions, however you must also keep the AI's poor ability to civilize in vanilla into mind, thus going back to a prestige setting is not an option atm.

[Kalelovil]

What's the difference between the poor research of uncivs in our mod and vanilla Victoria II? If you want to keep in the tech race in vanilla this also required you to especially invest in techs that somehow increase research and we didn't alter any tech, so that argument is still valid. Furthermore, in vanilla with the prestige demands you could argue that this also forced you to invest a lot of your valuable research points in gaining weak prestige techs.

And about your question regarding literacy and civilization: I regard literacy as the best indicator of how developed a nation can be in the modern world. I'm not saying this is foolproof in case of Russia which starts with poor literacy but is already civlized, but it does work nicely to get Japan civilized way sooner than other nations. Of course we are always open for suggestions, however you must also keep the AI's poor ability to civilize in vanilla into mind, thus going back to a prestige setting is not an option atm.

I don't see why it was seen as a problem with Vanilla that few AI uncivis managed to civilise. Surely that is much more accurate than the current setup in AoC 2.1 where there are few uncivs left by the end of the game? Civilising was still pretty easy for the player in Vanilla.
I have seen China, Persia, Dai Nam, Korea and probably many other starting uncivs with 100% literacy in 1936 in AoC 2.1.
That should not happen.

A couple of possible suggestions:

1. Make it harder for uncivs to gain literacy, and especially very hard for farmers anywhere to gain literacy.
2. Reduce the national literacy required to civilise or go back to the old Vanilla system but also add some other criteria such as:
Require the unciv to have a certain % of bureaucrats and for those bureacrats to have a high average literacy percentage.
Require the unciv to either be in the SOI of a great power or to have lost a war with a great power.

[delra]

I watched "Anne and the King" the other day on TV which was based on a book picturing a romance in westernizing Siam in the 19th century.

Siam felt pressure of the Brits who stomped all over Burma (#1 border with civilized nation?) and happened to have two talented rulers who knew what needs to be done (since there's no kings here, maybe #2 min. income requirement). No prestige, no military score, no techs required, not even a poll of literacy among the population. They hired mercs to train the army (#3 tactics tech lvl1), sent envoys to China (#4 relations with one GP higher than 100) and invited English missionaries to teach English to the upper class so they can communicate with westerners (#5 might be represented by aristocrat literacy).

Those are my ideas of triggers, again, based on the movie and not vast and detailed knowledge of Thailand's history.

While coding anything here, please remember that for gameplay purposes, any nation that civilizes after 1870 is pretty much unplayable due to tech lag which can never be fixed because techs never get cheaper and aren't allowed to be traded. So if they are only allowed to civilize in historic timeframes, player won't have much fun playing them. I think it should be easier for the player who actively pursues westernization than for Ai.

[Kalelovil]

While coding anything here, please remember that for gameplay purposes, any nation that civilizes after 1870 is pretty much unplayable due to tech lag which can never be fixed because techs never get cheaper and aren't allowed to be traded. So if they are only allowed to civilize in historic timeframes, player won't have much fun playing them. I think it should be easier for the player who actively pursues westernization than for Ai.

I wonder if it would be feasible to have some of the techs of the nation the westernising state is in the sphere of/borders transfer to the westernised state through an event?

[delra]

I thought there could be a "patron" of sorts for westernization. A country that unciv has good relations with and which chooses to aid their enlightmenent. This could lead to a series of events with England helping Siam civilize, USA giving free tech to Japan or Prussia giving to Persia in exchange for prestige and influence over the target country.

[bitmapmedivh]

I thought there could be a "patron" of sorts for westernization. A country that unciv has good relations with and which chooses to aid their enlightmenent. This could lead to a series of events with England helping Siam civilize, USA giving free tech to Japan or Prussia giving to Persia in exchange for prestige and influence over the target country.

One could create a new type of national value, perhaps call it "Tradition" or something, which all uncivs start with. Since you can give NV's special modifiers you could for example use it to affect literacy or bureaucrat promotion (or whatever one feels should be specific to uncivs). IIRC this is the way that the VIP2 team is going. One could then introduce a series of decisions that the unciv can take to alleviate the NV maluses, modelling the consious, active effort and energy a nation must expend in order to become civilized. The decisions themselves could have as a side effect to increase consiousness and/or militancy among the populace as ancient institutions and dissolved in order to become a modern nation.

Perhaps the Westernization decision should be removed entirely and replaced with a series of decisions instead. Each decision dealing with a certain aspect of the modernization process. For example: one decision could be about establishing a public education system to help with literacy, another to modernize the army etc. A nation that have enacted all the decisions attains civilized status and changes it's national value.

This system could be used to show a gradual level of modernization that varies between nations.

[Alyosha]

What's the difference between the poor research of uncivs in our mod and vanilla Victoria II? If you want to keep in the tech race in vanilla this also required you to especially invest in techs that somehow increase research and we didn't alter any tech, so that argument is still valid. Furthermore, in vanilla with the prestige demands you could argue that this also forced you to invest a lot of your valuable research points in gaining weak prestige techs.

Well, off the top of my head the techs required in vanilla were Tier 1 and 2, which aren't extremely hard to acquire even for an unciv (researching Idealism helped with these but wasn't necessary). Even more to the point, the techs required for civilizing in AoC are all Tier 1; however, in order to achieve literacy of 70% it's essential to at the very least research the Education chain to Tier 4, if not the Research-point boosting chain to that same level.

I don't think the literacy component should be scrapped - however, it would be nice if it could target certain classes or professions, like bureaucrats or clergy. Also, I like the thought of a certain level of bureaucrats across an empire.

Also, this:

While coding anything here, please remember that for gameplay purposes, any nation that civilizes after 1870 is pretty much unplayable due to tech lag which can never be fixed because techs never get cheaper and aren't allowed to be traded. So if they are only allowed to civilize in historic timeframes, player won't have much fun playing them. I think it should be easier for the player who actively pursues westernization than for Ai.

If a player wants to civilize he/she will have to avoid warfare (especially taking any territory that could lower literacy) and avoid any tech unrelated to literacy/research. By the time civilizing comes around, opportunities for any interesting gameplay may have disappeared.
It's almost as if the country has to isolate itself to westernize - cloistered with books and a neutral contact with the outside world.