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Thread: Single Men - The Holy See MMU

  1. #161
    Well that is the opposite of what the Church needed. The silver lining should be that these Iberian-backed factions will lose a ton of respect for that blunder. Nobody will be clamoring for a Julius III.
    "They don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble

  2. #162
    General gabor's Avatar
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    Athalcor:
    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    I doubt you can clean the blue taint from the map...
    will never stop trying though...

    Omen:
    Quote Originally Posted by Omen View Post
    What a contentious Papacy!
    worse is yet to come...

    loki100:
    Quote Originally Posted by loki100 View Post
    overall it looks Europe is becoming even more and more fragmented on various lines driven by a still live France, religion and run of the mill rebellion.
    now as you pointed it out, none of the historical European powers is as strong or consolidated as they were at that time in our timeframe; this gives the Papal States more room to act as a respectable medium power

    Quote Originally Posted by loki100 View Post
    Any danger the Eastern bits of the Papal States will push the New Rome line and argue to leave Europe to barbarism and concentrate on the civilised east?
    the danger seems very real indeed

    JacktheJumper:
    Quote Originally Posted by JacktheJumper View Post
    Also, the lack of problems in the East looks like a silence before a storm to me...
    but where will the thunder strike?

    morningSIDEr:
    Quote Originally Posted by morningSIDEr View Post
    I rather think Julius succeeded in his quest to attain fame. Or rather, infamy!
    I needed someone to make up for the (non-present) Borgias

    The Messenger:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Messenger View Post
    you should start to fragmentate France now that you are in a war. And bring France to the one true faith, for He is the only rightful one.
    these two suggestions somehow contradict each other; next update will reveal how I went about it

    Quote Originally Posted by The Messenger View Post
    are you thinking in supporting the catholic cause in Bohemian controlled territory the Low Lands and Northern Germany? Those Protestants couls be "wiped out of the map in 30 to 40 years time.
    I don't think I can do anything in this matter (can anybody enlighten me here?), and the Emperor seems to be rather tolerant

    aldriq:
    Quote Originally Posted by aldriq View Post
    The Spanish bankruptcies are probably a little to do with inflation
    surprisingly no; I checked and Spain has only 3% inflation (it's gone bankrupt only once so far); you might be right about the costs of army, navy AND building multiple colonies, but I'm not sure

    Chris Taylor: So many references I don't get! I managed to check a few online, but with others I remain in the dark.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    Perhaps La Ana can be persuaded to respect the church's traditional right to administer ecclesiastical jurisprudence. It would be a shame for the rash actions of the sovereign to result in ordinary Spaniards suffering the displeasure of the Holy Father and the See of Rome. If you know what I'm sayin'.
    no, not really; but anyway La Ana won't let go

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    Here I was hoping that Spain would become the Uber Mecha Godzilla and stomp all over the Holy Protestant Empire—and instead it goes broke. Are you tempted to prop them up with user savegame meddling? Maybe an inflation reduction?
    Spain is by no means weak (although I'm surprised it didn't manage to deal with the rebellious Sicily), it is of course weaker than irl but its colonial empire is growing; the issue Spain suffers from is not inflation but low stability

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    The emperor made a poor friendless French girl part with the faith of her fathers, all for a small and probably useless detachment of troops? Karel, you cad. I know she's a former heretic and all, but you should smite him. Repeatedly.
    well, he did attack France, and the cheeky Marguerite clings to her faith secretly (there's no way in the game to roleplay such negotiations); but you're right in the end Karel will take what's his and forget about la Belle. You know, 'It was just one of those things'

    Kroisistan:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kroisistan View Post
    The silver lining should be that these Iberian-backed factions will lose a ton of respect for that blunder. Nobody will be clamoring for a Julius III.
    exactly, but can the Curia afford to snub Spain?

  3. #163
    Disciple of Peperna CatKnight's Avatar
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    Excellent as always, gabor.

    As has been mentioned, Julius II was most certainly not want Rome needed. From your feedback it sounds like things get worse before they get better.
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  4. #164
    General gabor's Avatar
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    CatKnight:
    Quote Originally Posted by CatKnight View Post
    From your feedback it sounds like things get worse before they get better.
    well, yes, in a manner of speaking...

  5. #165
    General gabor's Avatar
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    Hadrianus VII


    13 September 1579 – 15 June 1582


    IN VARIETATE CONCORDIA



    The Intermediary


    With the ups and downs of the war against the heretic Louis XIV of France, its outcome still uncertain now when the Spanish promises turned out to be empty words, the cardinal-electors were hostile to any pro-Spanish candidature even though the creatures of the two previous Spanish Popes held the majority. The leader of the ‘orphans’, Cardinal Isonzo made it clear his faction would not accept another Spaniard or even a pro-Spain Italian as the next Pontiff. The elderly now Cardinal Morone, despite the tint of heresy in his biography, grew from an intermediary, negotiating between the faction leaders, to a papabile.
    (the war is slowly but steadily turning in Catholics’ favour, France has not regained its usual muscle yet; Provence taken I waited till the French army in Avignon got attritioned to less than 4/4/0 and struck; now Avignon is safe but I could not finish off the stack (there was this French stack you see in Nevers marching on me) and I had to hide in Bourbon; this made the French army turn North (when you play this game long enough you can predict the AI’s ‘tactics’); with a little help from the Emperor the South of France is falling to Catholic forces)





    Eventually, a distinguished, knowledgeable diplomat, Cardinal Morone accepted the honour and he got unanimously elected the Holy Father. There was fear that even his expertise, tact and resolution were able to do little in the complicated tangle of religious and political affairs of Europe. Cardinal Morone, now Hadrianus VII, remained a conspicuous member of a little group of moderate and intellectual men who saw that in the deadly struggle with Protestantism the faults were not all on one side. He was still remembered for a letter sent a few years ago to a Spanish archbishop stalked by the Spanish Inquisition. It read,

    There are (…) many reputed defenders of the Catholic faith who think that our religion consists of nothing but hatred of the Protestants. Charity shown to heretics is a better way than to overwhelm them with abusive language and maltreatment; if only this course of action had been adopted from the first, there would be less difficulty than there is in bringing about the union of the Church.


    Cardinal Morone was well-known for showing a silent contempt to those Catholic worthies who landed on the fanatical side; this resulted in a rather cold reactions in many Catholic courts at the news of him being elevated to Papacy. (let the diplomacy penalty be the result of this pope being too lenient or too modern-days tolerant)




    Central France


    The autumn-winter campaign turned out to be successful for the Emperor-Pope alliance. The breakthrough in the North enabled Karel V to rout the French out of the Imperial Low Lands and even advance slightly into the French territory. The South was being steadily secured by the allies. The coastal areas were both blockaded and harassed by the Portuguese navy. The victory appeared to be inevitable, the question of what to demand from the beaten king was yet to be agreed upon between Rome and Prague. Only the centre of France remained the bastion of the French Protestants and it had to be subdued. The removal of Lorraine from the war in spring, actually Duke Claude I pledged to the Emperor, made the King’s situation even worse. (the war turns out easier than I thought, what I want of course now is conversion, even if the Austrian example is sort of off-putting; sadly, to demand conversion I need to push much more; you see Bohemia has some problems in Low Lands, but nothing really serious; Lorraine gets vasalised by Bohemia, white peaces Portugal; and I get war subsidies from… Hungary; hmm… I know they’re Protestant, I guess Hungarian AI wants to thank me for PU-edit-freeing it from Austrian yoke)






    Indirect Influence


    Ana of Spain pretended to welcome the election of Cardinal Morone wholeheartedly. Too busy was she with the uprising on Sicily to intervene. But of course Spain would not ease up on its hold on Italy that lightly. Unable to control the Pope directly, Queen Ana resorted to subtler means. Ostensibly expressing her concern with the unfinished reform of the Catholic Church (a lot of problems left unsolved let the Protestantism thrive), she demanded Hadrianus VII to call another Council. The irony of the situation, His Holiness shared the Queen’s worries; the cracks on the Church’s unity were more than alarmingly visible, but he knew it was only a political ploy on the Queen’s part and, with both Papacy and Empire engaged in a major conflict, the new Council was simply not viable. The concept was close to the Pope’s heart but it had to wait, the question of France was the priority.
    (no I don’t want to lose stability, I can’t afford it now; so firm hand it is, again; like 8th or 9th time I think)



    Hadrianus VII feared the Spanish political machine might employ other means to regain its influence in Rome. To prevent this, and he did feel anxious about his safety, he asked the Swiss Diet to provide him with a constant corps of Swiss mercenaries. The Swiss mercenaries had long been serving the Papacy, but Hadrianus VII decided to regulate the rules of their employment and made them the Pope’s personal bodyguards. The strangeness of the situation was enhanced by the declaration of the Protestant Diet of Switzerland, which read,

    the Swiss see the perilous situation of the Church of God, Mother of Christianity, and realize how grave and dangerous it is that any tyrant, avid for wealth, can assault with impunity, the common Mother of Christianity


    The tyrant read Louis XIV; the Swiss had long seen France as a threat; they wanted to placate the Catholic Emperor too, but clearly such a declaration would not be possible under any other pope. Hadrianus VII granted the Swiss Guard the title Defenders of the Church's freedom. Initially, it was not even demanded from the soldiers to be Catholic. For many Catholic dynasts it was unthinkable; Ana of Spain did not fail to interpret this insult rightly. However, Karel V, the rulers of the East and the ‘orphans’ applauded this encompassing gesture; it was in line with both the official stance of the Empire (and Karel V strived to avoid a renewal of religious turmoil) and the Pharos policy. (it’s a little flavour event, but fired at the very right time; the Emperor is on my side, what a relief!, the Protestant provs held by Bohemia have religious autonomy modifier so the Emperor also adheres to the more tolerant policy; will the Jesuits do any good in Trebizond? I suppose they may change the composition of minorities in provinces, in favour of Catholics; btw there’s no Catholic minority in Switzerland so I guess the guards are Protestant!)






    Middle Francia?


    The final doom of France was not brought on by the Catholic invasion. True, the Imperial and Papal advance encouraged the Catholic minority to rise against Louis XIV, but this was just a distracter, an episode of the conflict. The August uprising was moderately successful, a few towns opened their gates to the marching Catholic forces, but nowhere did the insurgents manage to overthrow the royalist administration on their own. What sealed the grim fate of France was the Burgundian Philippe IV’s, ambition, ambition of forming what he called the Middle Francia or Middle Kingdom, that is restoring Burgundy to its past greatness and, in the long run, claiming the Lothari regnum (this idea gained some popularity in mostly Protestant Low Lands). When the Protestants jumped at each other’s throats, there was muffled rejoicing in Rome and Catholic camps in occupied France.
    (pity the Catholic alliance has no chance to coordinate its campaign with the Catholic uprising; I keep on fighting as I still need some more war score to demand conversion; the sorry state of France tempts vultures, Burgundy brings along an odd bevy of allies (Algiers!?); another thing is: wouldn’t (in real life) Burgundians, Bretons (who hold no Breton provs and lost – I checked – the acceptance of Breton culture) and English be hostile towards Bohemian and my soldiers? I mean some clashes or squabbles over taken cities, instead I can cooperate with Brittany and willingly do as it feels I need just a few war score points more to force-convert)






    The Go-Between


    The diplomacy game between Ana of Spain and Hadrianus VII was not over. When in February the Pope once again postponed the convocation of the Council, the Queen barely two months later called a Synod in León. There was little pretence the Synod was working on preliminary ideas to be put forward in the delayed Council; instead it openly discussed the corruption and self-indulgence of Papal officials; worse still, the representatives deliberated over the alleged heretical leanings of Rome; the Pharos policy, Hadrianus VII’s past and the Swiss Guard episode mentioned as incriminating evidence.



    His Holiness realised he had to react swiftly and decisively. The Protestant uprising in the Empire (in the Low Lands many rebels raised the old Lotharii regnum banners and expected Philippe of Burgundy to support them) made things complicated and delayed the peace talks with Louis XIV. The Pope himself travelled to Paris, where he eventually made the King sign the peace. The King was forced to declare that Paris vaut bien une mess. Louis XIV and the whole royal family participated in a solemn Holy Mass, celebrated in French. The oldest daughter of Holy Mother Church was officially welcomed back into the fold; His Holiness shedding tears of joy, so overwhelmed by emotions was he on this heart-rending occasion.
    (Hungary subsidies me again, well I won’t profit from it as I peace out instantly; the voting in Synod started: Siena supports me; France accepts the terms and immediately issues the Edict of Nantes, it gives +2 tolerance to heretics and -2 tolerance to the state religion, so I fear the Catholicism in France (like in Austria) may not last; a couple of months later I ask Catholic France for military access and it is granted to me)





    On his part, Hadrianus VII promised Louis XIV to help mediate the acceptable terms with the Emperor and support him, the returned prodigal son, against heretic and heathen invaders tearing his realm apart; providing Louis XIV ended his feud with Portugal over Armagnac. The Pope also assured the Protestant majority of France that the Church will take no action against them, in fact he even positively commented on the Edict of Nantes issued by the Louis XIV in hope of retaining internal integrity of the kingdom. Invoking the Union of Florence, the success of the Church in the East and the Pharos policy he addressed the Protestant leaders expressing his belief that with time they will comprehend that through talks and reforms the Christian Church can regain unity. Hadrianus VII kept his side of the bargain; the terms Karel V dictated were merciful; France recognised the Imperial rights to Low Lands and Lorraine’s drifting away from its sphere of influence. (of course there’s no way I can help Catholic France against its foes, bar dowing them (not now, too risky); the pic shows the peace which was not signed; I mean I reloaded and asked for relinquishing cores on Bohemia-held Imperial and Lorraine’s territory plus money; why? don’t I want to weaken France any further? well, look at the map: the Bohemian Catholic Emperor releases four Protestant states weakening the just-converted French king? how logical and plausible is that? a few years into the game now, I think I might have given Bohemia a province instead of money; my excuse might be Bohemia needs peace quickly as the Protestant rebels have grown a problem, they’ve taken a few provs; France is still in its two remaining wars and sorry this will not be my last ‘intervention’ (read: cheating) in this conflict)




    Let’s Meet Halfway


    The Synod of León was an affair to which the Papal diplomacy could finally turn its full attention. The Pontiff well understood the threat it posed, his legates and officials had been working relentlessly in European courts to retain the rulers’ loyalty to Rome. The gloomy history of the West Schism haunted Hadrianus VII and wore him down. The Pope was exhausted by the political and religious intricacies of the previous months; but so was Queen Ana. The rough-and-tumble game the two of them had been playing for some time led to an impasse. The Pope secured the loyalty of most courts, Queen Ana controlled the Synod of León, but had to compromise in the question of Sicily. (don’t ask me why Venice voted twice, I might have overlooked some votes; this is Dei Gratia and its workings are a mystery to me, again, yet I like it!, I sent insults to Palermo instantly, well there’s no need to be a rocket science expert to guess Naples will sooner or later dow opm Sicily)





    The Spanish delegation arrived in Rome in February 1582. There was less arrogance on the Spanish part than years ago, but still neither party played honestly. Queen Ana promised to call a halt to the Synod, Hadrianus VII condemned Leopoldo I of Naples’ aspirations to acquire ‘the Spanish’ Palermo; neither of them really meant to keep their word. The reconciliation that followed was very fragile. Despite the attempts to conceal it, the Spanish delegation found out about the Pontiff’s rapidly declining health and stalled for time. The resolutions of the talks were regarded as preliminary and a more prestigious delegation, headed by Prince Felipe himself, was promised to be sent to Rome in a few months’ time.




    Golden Mean


    A few days, that’s how long the settlement lasted. The Spaniards gone, paid by their gold Prince-Archbishop of Utrecht questioned the authority of Hadrianus VII. His Holiness in fact did not need this show of ill-will as a prompt to arrange a council. He had long wanted to convoke one, but first the war than the matter of Synod prevented him from starting preparations. Now the obstacle was his deteriorating health. And such a venture required a lot of time and effort, especially as Hadrianus VII insisted the delegates from the West and East be given equal representation.



    While the preparations were in progress, Holy Mother Church achieved a few minor successes in the East; this made Hadrianus VII think about drawing up a plan for addressing the problems of the West with a similar remedy Pharos policy turned out to be in the East. In his vision Holy Mother Church was both encompassing and decentralised, he was ready to negotiate substantial concessions as long as the Papal authority gets recognised. Knowing his time was short, he addressed all the Christians in his bull In Varietate Concordia referring to and quoting the wisdom of Saint Thomas Aquinas and his Summa Theologica.

    the mean of virtue depends on conformity with virtue's rule or measure, in so far as one may exceed or fall short of that rule. Now the measure of theological virtue may be twofold. One is taken from the very nature of virtue, and thus the measure and rule of theological virtue is God Himself: because our faith is ruled according to Divine truth; charity, according to His goodness; hope, according to the immensity of His omnipotence and loving kindness. This measure surpasses all human power: so that never can we love God as much as He ought to be loved, nor believe and hope in Him as much as we should. (…)


    Hope observes the mean between presumption and despair, in relation to us, in so far, to wit, as a man is said to be presumptuous, through hoping to receive from God a good in excess of his condition; or to despair through failing to hope for that which according to his condition he might hope for. But there can be no excess of hope in comparison with God, Whose goodness is infinite.


    In like manner faith holds a middle course between contrary heresies, not by comparison with its object, which is God, in Whom we cannot believe too much; but in so far as human opinion itself takes a middle position between contrary opinions, as was explained above.


    extracts from
    Question 64. The mean of virtue
    Summa Theologica; Saint Thomas Aquinas




    the popular interpretation
    part of many travelling shows

    (I just couldn't resist)


    Pope Hadrianus VII passed away barely several days later, the tidings of Christians, albeit Ethiopian Orthodox, freeing swaths of North Africa from Muslim yoke bringing a faint smile to his face. There was hope, he believed. In those times of intrigue and power play few ecclesiastics succeeded in retaining the esteem of all parties and creeds as this large-minded and eminently able and honest churchman. But where the intellectual elite regarded him highly, the temporal rulers tried to undermine his influence. (after all, France lost no land to the Catholic alliance, this portrays this Pope’s vision somehow; I’m pleased to find out that in Dei Gratia the schism is a real threat)




    Treasury / yearly income: 900d / 94,97 (war subsidies gone)
    Merchants: 5 in Thrace: 61.77/423.41 and 4 in Alexandria: 49.24/422.97 (I enacted ‘protection of our merchants’)
    Fleet: 5: 5 cogs
    Army: 24k Reformed tercio; 7k Gallop cavalry
    Manpower / discipline: 24.962 / 115.00%
    Army / navy tradition: 62.60% / 0.00%
    Prestige: 100
    Stability: +3
    Infamy: 1.43/23.50
    War exhaustion: 1.40/11

  6. #166
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
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    that was nicely presented, an essentially decent pope trying to find a sensible course amidst a lot of madness ..., at least you seem to have removed some of the previous Spanish influence
    Remember, whatever the question, the answer on 18 September is Yes ...

  7. #167
    Editor-in-Chief AllmyJames's Avatar
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    This is a nice AAR. I don't play MM too much, but this is inspiring me to give it another go! I appreciate the different personalities you give to your Popes, and the plausible way you explain the course of events.

    Nice work with France - Hungary next?
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  8. #168
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    Wow the Protestant rebellion of Lowlands is quite large! What type were the rebels? Heretics?

    The Schism events were quite interesting...but was there anyone who voted for Spain?

    And finally, how did the Gascogne/Navarre war end?
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  9. #169
    Major Chris Taylor's Avatar
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    Another exciting update!

    Uh oh! You might end up getting these synod things every other week, given the amount of territory you hold. For what it's worth I had a synod in my game too—and yes, Venice voted twice. Hilariously, it voted once for each side.

    Wow, France took a serious beating. From the HRE perspective, even when they were co-religionists the King of France and the Emperor were strident competitors. Taking apart France and securing the Empire's western border would probably have been the goal of a real-life Emperor, if any had had the power to do so! But for an EU3 player losing such a heavyweight kind of destroys the drama of the game, so I understand why you prevented it.

    Those rebels in the Low Countries—they are heretics, not nationalists? Too bad for the Dutch.

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  10. #170
    General gabor's Avatar
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    loki100:
    Quote Originally Posted by loki100 View Post
    an essentially decent pope trying to find a sensible course amidst a lot of madness ..., at least you seem to have removed some of the previous Spanish influence
    Have I?

    AllmyJames:
    Quote Originally Posted by AllmyJames View Post
    I appreciate the different personalities you give to your Popes
    Thank you. As for popes and trying to make them look different, I seem to be running out of ideas.
    Quote Originally Posted by AllmyJames View Post
    Nice work with France - Hungary next?
    They deserve some spanking, don't they? Those heretics!

    Athalcor:
    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    Wow the Protestant rebellion of Lowlands is quite large! What type were the rebels? Heretics?
    Heretics, and in smallish stacks of 2-5k. So Bohemia will deal with this in no time. Admittedly, a few provs will fall (the rebels spawned in former Brandenburg provs too and there was no Bohemian army there at the time) but nothing will come out of it. Anyway, there's 'religious autonomy' modifier in all wrong-religion provs of Bohemia, so the Emperor has reached some status quo with the more moderate heretics.
    As for the national sentiments -> independence movement in the Netherlands it is poorly portrayed by MM. No doubt, together with Burgundy inheritance, it's one of the hardest things to implement. On the one hand no scripted events is an ultimate goal, on the other hand I miss the presence of the Netherlands as the formidable colonial power; it hardly ever happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    The Schism events were quite interesting...but was there anyone who voted for Spain?
    Won't Spain itself be enough to worry? It seems the voting was more whether to depose the pope or not. (Dei Gratia is a bit cryptic or when you don't focus on religion while you're playing, you don't pay attention to these events.) Only Utrecht wanted Hadrianus VII to go.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athalcor View Post
    And finally, how did the Gascogne/Navarre war end?
    It didn't. I mean Navarre has been Spanish for some time and is turned back Catholic (remember the Spanish Inquisition )
    'Gascogne' is a two-prov Armagnac, vassal of Portugal; both of them are still fighting France. In my war I relieved Bearn from the French occupation. Then a French (no longer) ally (opm Catholic) Guyenne occupied both Armagnac's provs just to sign white peace. The Portuguese are slow to help their vassal. I know, what happens to France in this aar is pretty messy.

    Chris Taylor:
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    Uh oh! You might end up getting these synod things every other week, given the amount of territory you hold.
    This is what I worry about, so I'm not intending to grab more land, not too much anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    Wow, France took a serious beating. From the HRE perspective, even when they were co-religionists the King of France and the Emperor were strident competitors. Taking apart France and securing the Empire's western border would probably have been the goal of a real-life Emperor, if any had had the power to do so! But for an EU3 player losing such a heavyweight kind of destroys the drama of the game, so I understand why you prevented it.
    You really put it clearly for me. 1) I think the faudal fragmentation of France should be the thing of the past at this point (or at least it should be portrayed differently than just creating new states, more like vassal system of CK) 2) What would Europe be without the not-so-big bad blue blob? So Hadrianus VII, the middle-ground pope, simply intervened and placated the Emperor's wrath.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
    Those rebels in the Low Countries—they are heretics, not nationalists? Too bad for the Dutch.
    As I wrote answering Athalcor: the MM-typically unlucky Dutch or the lack of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    As for popes and trying to make them look different, I seem to be running out of ideas.
    Well, there wasn't any mad pope yet, wasn't there? Holy Father that goes insane because of the stress connected with ruling the crumbling Christendom would be indeed a great character, or so do I think

  12. #172
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    You could have a pope who's secretly a Protestant.


    Another great post gabor. I liked Hadrianus, but as you pointed out he might have been just a little too tolerant for the times.
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  13. #173
    General morningSIDEr's Avatar
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    Very action packed reign, as they all seem to be! A useful victory over France. I did like how the schism was portrayed throughout the update, those dastardly Spaniards! As ever things seem interestingly poised, Popes in this AAR always seem to bow out at intriguing moments. I smiled at this part too;

    Quote Originally Posted by gabor View Post
    and I get war subsidies from… Hungary; hmm… I know they’re Protestant, I guess Hungarian AI wants to thank me for PU-edit-freeing it from Austrian yoke)
    Clearly the AI in EU3 is a lot more intelligent than I have given it credit!
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    I guess, my theory apparently worked out. All you need to do is make sure France gets all Catholic all over again, even though there is nothing you can do about it.
    Also, about those provinces problems, there should be a reorganization of the Anatolian territory, like less for you, more for your allies.
    I can't wait to see what newer strategies you will put in this AAR!!!!

  15. #175
    Part Time Warp aldriq's Avatar
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    A rare couple of updates totally focused on the west... Might the balance move back east with a new Pope favoured by the Orphans?

    Quote Originally Posted by CatKnight View Post
    You could have a pope who's secretly a Protestant.
    Or a woman
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    JacktheJumper:
    Quote Originally Posted by JacktheJumper View Post
    Well, there wasn't any mad pope yet, wasn't there?
    That's a thought!

    CatKnight:
    Quote Originally Posted by CatKnight View Post
    You could have a pope who's secretly a Protestant. I liked Hadrianus, but as you pointed out he might have been just a little too tolerant for the times.
    Didn't he feel like a secret Protestant? Or an irenist at least?

    morningSIDEr:
    Quote Originally Posted by morningSIDEr View Post
    Very action packed reign
    More to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by morningSIDEr View Post
    Popes in this AAR always seem to bow out at intriguing moments.
    Don't they? So it's not only me who gets this impression.

    The Messenger:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Messenger View Post
    All you need to do is make sure France gets all Catholic all over again, even though there is nothing you can do about it.
    Oh, how I wish I could! But as you pointed it out: nothing i can do. (Unless there's something I don't know. Can anyone enlighten me?)
    Quote Originally Posted by The Messenger View Post
    there should be a reorganization of the Anatolian territory, like less for you, more for your allies.
    I'd been planning to 'redistribute' territory since the 'liberation' of Cyprus. What Trebizond holds it owes to my generosity. Also, neither Trebizond nor KosJ are my allies. So I'm in two minds about it. I wanted to sell at least Karaman (haven't build a single building there), but as the coring process took up speed, I hesitate. Remember also I haven't grabbed a single province in the West.

    aldriq:
    Quote Originally Posted by aldriq View Post
    A rare couple of updates totally focused on the west... Might the balance move back east with a new Pope favoured by the Orphans?
    a Pope you say?

    Quote Originally Posted by aldriq View Post
    Or a woman
    How implausible!

  17. #177
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    Innocentius VII // Marcellus II


    5 September 1582 - // 11 March 1584 -


    - 14 June 1584


    DOMINE, DOMINE, QUIS SUSTINEBIT?



    Intimidation


    Hadrianus VII’s death might not have been sudden, but it could not have happened in a less favourable time. The preparations for the council in Ancona were in progress, Prince Felipe of Spain was heading for Rome to continue the talks on the grievances between the Spanish Crown and the Curia. And the Curia, divided equally between the pro- and anti-Spanish factions, faced an impossible task of choosing the new pope.

    The fragile balance between the factions was uncertain as they were also internally at odds. What is more, quite a few cardinals had already left for Ancona, the leader of the ‘Orphans’, Cardinal Isonzo among them. As in this situation conclave seemed a far more pressing matter than the council, the Camerlengo, Cardinal Adria, summoned the absent cardinal-electors back to Rome. Very few managed.



    At about that time Prince Felipe arrived. Together with the delegation from the Synod. And a handful of so-far absent Spanish cardinal-electors. And a sizeable ‘escort’. The citizens of Rome closed the gates of the city. Anti-Spanish sentiments high, the Camerlengo found himself in a precarious position. He could either back up the Romans or risk heightening the tension and facing the wrath of the people. Ecclesiastical property, his property, even his life might be in peril.

    Felipe of Spain camped nearby, his men ravaging the countryside. In the end, Cardinal Adria gave an anti-Spanish speech to the populace, yet at the same time sent a letter to Prince Felipe offering to meet in Ancona and arrange the conclave there. To this the Spanish heir consented. In Ancona however, he intimidated both Count Guidantonio I and the gathering churchmen. He realised the perfect opportunity to regain influence in Italy was on hand. An obedient pope and more stringency in Holy Church were the Spanish goal. Citing the Camerlengo’s letter, Felipe ordered to start the conclave; his men were to keep watch over the electors’ safety.

    There was one factor neither he nor Cardinal Adria took into consideration though: the ambitions of Leopoldo I of Naples. The king challenged his long-time ally the Papal States and pleaded the Curia to recognise his ancestral rights to Sicily. While he made this 'humble request' his men were already marching North ‘to free the Camerlengo from his house arrest’, and his diplomats were discussing a deal with Felipe: support for a Spanish pope in exchange for Palermo. For this prize Leopoldo I was ready to back the devil himself.



    Nothing came out of this deal. For Felipe it was all or nothing. Never would he relinquish his dynasty's rights to Sicily; on September 5th 1582 the conclave in Ancona elected a Spaniard. Oddly, Prince Felipe, going against his mother’s orders here, insisted on choosing Cardinal Elcano. The nephew of Clemens VII, during his uncle’s short rule he assisted in Pope Nonno’s charity work and thus earned gratitude and respect in the Papal States. In any other circumstances this would be a candidature the anti-Spanish opposition might have accepted. As it was, Rome exploded in riots against this Spanish puppet, Innocentius VII.
    (the inevitable happened; strangely the penalties the schism brings don’t seem that harsh for me, with all the prestige-giving stuff I can handle prestige and morale hits; revolt risk will hurt but will remain manageable, even the -6% to missionary chance isn’t that bad: there’s only Anatolia to convert and remember I have all 3 religious NIs + advisors; the game gave first Benedictus XIII as the anti-pope (talk about obstinacy!) but soon Innocentius VII appeared)



    Cardinal Adria immediately excommunicated Innocentius VII calling him an usurper and anti-pope. But what of it, if soon the Prince-Bishop of Trier and the Count of Nuremberg recognised the new Pope. (The latter’s gesture was symbolic as Ansbach was the seat of the first council that dealt with the threat of the Reformation.) There was little force behind this excommunication however, as the Papacy lacked the leader who might take action. And the prospects for a change for the better were slim: the Camerlengo and several other cardinals were in Rome, trapped, their position uncertain in the rebellious city; the majority of cardinal-electors were de facto hostages in Ancona, where Innocentius VII was just opening the council. (I get excommunication cb on Spain and those who support the new pope; no one supports me, yet)

    Still Cardinal Adria had an ace up his sleeve. Felipe of Spain felt confident enough to sent the Neapolitan diplomats home, empty-handed. The Curia’s envoys approached the ambitious Leopoldo I and put forward an offer: in exchange for assistance in capturing Palermo, the Neapolitans would help to route the Spanish from Ancona and thus put a stop to this illegal papacy, ill-gotten council and ill-treatment of Italians. Leopoldo I readily agreed, claiming he had never questioned the validity of the alliance with the Papal States. (I couldn’t use my old trick: wait a month and take advantage of the alliance cb because I’m a regency, so unfortunately a golden opportunity to snatch Urbino will pass as Naples and Sicily are the alliance leaders; the war (which is a piece of cake) would happen sooner or later I have to give credit to Naples AI for choosing the perfect moment)




    Ripples


    The Holy See’s weakness was by no means a question of local politics or a squabble with the Spanish monarchy over hegemony in Italy. The repercussions of the Schism were felt instantly throughout the Christendom and they also had far-reaching consequences. For starters the emboldened Charles I York, having humiliated France, took on another Catholic bastion in the West: Scotland, and at the same time he attacked Calais, the self-proclaimed Netherlands. A strengthened England was a worry for Madrid and Rome alike, however busy with their conflict over the Church leadership, they could do nothing to curb the English appetite.
    (at first I was surprised England demanded Cambray and not any other, cored province, but the others were occupied by Burgundy, interestingly both Picardie and Cambray are part of the HRE, French cores and NOT English cores; the Netherlands got only vassalised thanks to owning two islands (event-given I guess) in the Caribbean)



    What came as a shock to both Ana of Spain and the Curia was the secularisation of Utrecht. The Prince-Bishop, Ana’s former lapdog, nestled down comfortably as a nominal retainer of the weak Netherlands; thus freeing himself form Ana, Rome and the Emperor at one stroke, and securing the protection of England. With this, and the French influence removed, the Low Lands became the area of rivalry between the Emperor and the English Crown. The Netherlands’ survival, a considerable feat in fact, revived the radical thought the Church reformers never completely abandoned.

    To the Curia’s horror the movement of ‘brethren’, propagating a kind of non-trinitarian religious doctrine swept through northern Italy. They advocated the separation of church and state and taught the equality and brotherhood of all people; they opposed social privileges based on religious affiliation, and their adherents refused military service. The latter would affect the history of the Papacy as the ‘brethren’ found safe haven in the courts of Papal vassals: Milan and Ferrara; the royals there would refuse to assist the Holy See in its wars. Initially, the Curia was irate but too powerless to react, later the danger was deemed negligible. (Utrecht joining the Netherlands – in given circumstances – is difficult to make plausible; it is a Catholic prov while the Netherlands are Reformed; also they’re rather weak and vassal of Protestant England; I doubt a two-province Netherlands will become a successful coloniser; was it the schism or what but it seems the Reformation picked up again and Milan and Ferrara are a nasty surprise I have no idea what to do about; in the pic you can see Catholic French provs, altogether there are four: these 3 + the capital)




    The Undermanned Conclave


    The majority of cardinal-electors still plainly hostages in Ancona, the Camerlengo felt the – potentially - newly, even though rightfully, elected Pope of Rome would lack the much-needed authority. The war with Urbino did not solve the problem, the siege of Ancona turned out to be a lengthy, and rather reluctant, one. The town was regularly re-supplied by the Spanish ships. Queen Ana would not dare to attack Rome directly, she did not intend to tint Innocentius VII’s reputation by acquiring his throne through violence. The message to the Catholic world was clear: Innocentius VII was elected through legal procedures, now it was Rome who was using force to depose the officially authorized Holy Father.

    In Rome Cardinal Adria had to bear the pressure of the other cardinals begging him to let them elect him; which he considered a politically foolish move. It seems he was on the brink of relenting when Cardinal Isonzo, the leader of the ‘Orphans’ arrived in Rome. It has never been clearly established whether he managed to sneak out of the besieged Ancona or was he allowed to go by Prince Felipe with the task of seeking some compromise. Ancona could not withhold the siege for ever, and this is what Felipe of Spain fully realised. And indeed on his arrival Cardinal Isonzo advocated recognising Innocentius VII as the lesser evil. The idea was not favourably welcomed and neither the Curia nor the people of Rome could decide whether to regard Cardinal Isonzo as a misguided saviour or a devious traitor.

    When the impasse was becoming unbearable and Cardinal Isonzo’s frantic cries ‘we have to do something’ seemed to be convincing more and more cardinals, another visitor came to Rome. Nicolaus Grado, the Patriarch of Constantinople; this appointee of Hadrianus VII was a man of great esteem. Coming back from the prosperous and peaceful regions of the state, with reports on the successes in the East he instilled new hope in the hearts of the desperate cardinals. Being a moderate ‘Orphan’ he advocated, arguing ‘God will guide them’, the convocation of conclave even if altogether there were only twelve cardinal-electors in Rome. His voice was heard. (all my provs are Catholic now, I slowly core in Greece; I retained the theologian partly for gameplay reasons, partly for the lack of a better replacement; I also guess he might trigger ‘bonfire of vanities’ event, dunno; btw note all my advisors were born in the Papal States!)



    The peculiar conclave of twelve cardinals proved a poor solution as well. The electors could not reach a decision as, now the obvious candidate, Cardinal Adria repeatedly rejected the honour. The idea of recognising Innocentius VII was dropped instantly, and the two pro-Spanish cardinals kept low profile. But there was the rift between the Romans, who pointed out the issues of the West were the ultimate emergency, and the Orphans, who could pride themselves on the successful effects of the Pharos policy. Also, the cardinal-electors (most of them of lower rank) feared how the other cardinals from their respective factions will react as soon as Ancona falls. But there were no signs of Ancona falling.




    Habemus Papam?


    Whereas Cardinal Adria was a man of hesitation and cautious consideration, Cardinal Isonzo was a man of action. What eventually made Cardinal Adria to put forward and actively promote Cardinal Isonzo’s candidature and what he was promised in return is unknown. The fact is that throughout his pontificate Cardinal Isonzo, as Marcellus II, routinely turned to the Camerlengo for advice and heeded it. A thinly-veiled sigh of relief could be heard in the Papal palace when Karel V the Emperor recognised Marcellus II as the new rightful Pope. (I opted for a pious pope hoping it’ll help heal the schism and restore the papal authority, which as you see is only nominal now; I won’t falter – there’s hope as long as the Emperor’s on my side)



    A man with a military bend, Marcellus II decided there has been enough of deliberating and playing safe. He marched his Papal guard eastwards to join the besiegers by the walls of Ancona. His arrival was divinely inspirational for the joint Papal-Neapolitan forces. The assault was ordered and the town was in Papal hands just within a month of Marcellus II’s reign. Barely had Prince Felipe time to evacuate Innocentius VII and his other minions and sail for the Spanish shores. Innocentius VII’s escape marred the triumph; predictably Queen Ana granted the usurper a castle and some land in Leon and still called him the Pope.

    Even so, in Rome it was felt a major breakthrough took place. Marcellus II promptly adjourned the ill-fated council and declared it an invalid and illicit assembly, its resolutions null and void. The Count of Urbino, considered Felipe’s accomplice, was put under house arrest and was to be tried; Cardinal Adria intervened and advised leniency. The freed cardinals, having changed their Spanish sentinels into Papal ones, unanimously recognised Marcellus II the rightful Bishop of Rome. (charmingly odd, isn’t it? I mean that the game had this council hosted by Urbino, still it helped me with coming up with this story; Urbino is occupied but as Palermo is about to fall, there’s no hope I can long-wait it)




    The Not-So Catholic France


    Louis XIV of France, his Catholicism skin-deep and his kingdom torn apart by enemies, could not count on any Papal support in the two volatile years between June 1582 and June 1584. With the Hadrianus VII’s death the Papacy plunged into its internal strife and the rivalry with Spain over the dominance in Italy; the Curia had no time or resources to engage in French affairs. This was bad news for French Catholics. Or any attempts at religious reconciliation in France. All the Papal Secretary could do was to dispatch comforting letters when France was losing Cambray to the English and Maine to the Brettons.

    All this time the French court was uncertain who to side with. It seemed in Paris the Camerlengo had given permission for the conclave in Ancona, as a result Innocentius VII was considered legally elected. Even though there was no official statement from the French court, the Catholic nobility recognised him in fear Spain might open yet another front in the disastrous wars France was waging. The election of Marcellus II caused even more confusion and bitter dispatches were exchanged between Paris and Rome; the wording of Marcellus II’s reply exceedingly insensitive, callous even. It took Cardinal Adria’s diplomatic deftness to alleviate the tension. The weakness of both parties and hence their mutual unwillingness to turn this discord into an all-out war helped considerably.

    Busy in Ancona, Marcellus II could do little to help France. Admittedly, Cardinal Adria sent envoys to Philippe IV of Burgundy to persuade him to offer reasonable terms to the beaten foe; Rome wanted to prevent a fragmentation of France. This assignment, successfully accomplished, backfired as the Duke demanded two rich and fertile regions of France: Lyonnais and Champagne. Louis XIV is famed to cry out in desperation, ‘Lord, protect me from such friends!’ The French-Papal relationships soured even more, A similar mediation mission to Marguerite of Armagnac failed; the Regent of Portugal would not yield an acre of her land and Portugal with its naval advantage could carry on fighting seemingly interminably. (once more I intervened, Burgundy asked for similar terms to the ones the Emperor expressed a while back; call me silly but I don’t fancy a feudally-fragmented France entering the 17th century; and wouldn’t a Burgundian Duke, with a Middle Francia ideal in his mind, ask for rich land rather than releasing French minors? I bet a player would; anyway, neither England nor Castile can be this easily fragmented)



    The Shape of Things to Come


    The months, even the weeks, after Marcellus II’s election showed the way the Papal States would operate for the duration of his reign. Him busily travelling the width of the Papal lands, bringing the cross, and more importantly, the sword with him; the matters of the West got delegated to Cardinal Adria and the matters of the East to Nicolaus Grado. Their expertise proved crucial as the Pope himself was a rash and hot-tempered man.

    It was through Cardinal Adria’s careful guidance that the peace was brought to Italy. In a fatherly gesture of goodwill Marcellus II embraced the Count of Urbino and, in an expression of the Christian virtue of mercy, forgave Guidantonio I his wrongs. Leoppoldo I was not only rewarded with Palermo, His Holiness bestowed on the king the prestigious and elaborate title of the King of Sicily and the Two Straits of the Coast, disregarding the fact that Ana of Spain still both bore the title and controlled Messina. Anything to patch up the rift with Naples and cold-shoulder the Trastámaras.

    The success was illusive. The Spanish influence in Italy might have been curtailed but the Italian project the Papal States had been working on for years showed visible cracks. First of all Naples has become menacingly independent. Secondly, while Venice supported Rome, Genoa remained tellingly neutral and even dared to show some kindness towards Madrid. Finally, the dukedoms of the North took advantage of the turmoil and probed the extent of freedom - religious, political and administrative - they could wrest from the weakened Papacy. But the most burning issue which needed resolving was the schism with its leader Innocentius VII, now the venerable guest of Queen Ana. (Naples annexes Palermo and the war is over, no gain for me, well I’m glad Naples didn’t vassalise Urbino; the freaky thing you can see in the pic below is the Hungarian fleet, which had left their sole port to sail North up the shores of Scotland and occupy a province there! I decided to pause there as Marcellus II, after this eventful accession, had a longish reign and I need some extra room to account on it)


  18. #178
    Field Marshal loki100's Avatar
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    whow, even by your standards that is an impressive update. Anti-popes, Italian-Spanish rivalry, the old debate between worrying about the west or emphasising the potential of the east & we now have a zealous Pope determined to stamp his moral and temporal power on the world.

    re: Utrecht, not so implausible. When the Dutch wars of independence ended, some catholic provinces (those in the south) opted to join the United Netherlands, others (modern day Flanders) opted to stay under Spanish rule. Geofflrey Parker (The Dutch Revolt) reckons this was partly on commercial rather than religious grounds. Antwerp controlled a large slice of Spain's America trade and would have lost access to all that riches if they'd joined with the United Netherlands instead.
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  19. #179
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    MM is just full of interesting things and events! Awesome update as always.
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  20. #180
    General morningSIDEr's Avatar
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    Enthralling stuff. You played out schism brilliantly. I rather like the appointment of Isonzo as Mercellus II, he seems a fiery character which could well prove important in the coming years. Although I think him very wise to have appointed the more courteous Adrio and Nicolaus as advisers/rulers of west and east respectively. With regards to the schism, Spain truly is proving your nemesis in this game, the meddlsome Ana seems to have an equally troublesome son as heir. Impossible to see how Spain can be adequately dealt with either.

    Worrying that both Milan and Ferrara have heretics roaming their lands, worrying too that France continues to decline. However Naples considerable rise in power seems rather more ominous, hopefully she can be retained as an ally. As ever the coming years promise to be testing ones.
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