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Thread: 2 Questions; about Jingoism and gaining/acquiring cores

  1. #1

    Question 2 Questions; about Jingoism and gaining/acquiring cores

    1) Can anyone please help me find where to edit the savegame to rise jingoism? ... to make more warclaims in a war. Haven't found a way yet to get a good view about what is where, and appearantly the term is not in the savegame-file as such.

    2) In EU III I edited some file so that newly acquired territories became cores of yours sooner, I can't remember how and have been searching for quite a while to find it back lol ... can anyone share info about this concerning Victoria II?

  2. #2
    Not an answer to the OP's question, but I was wondering if Jingoism also affects the frequency with which "border incidents" (giving an excuse to declare war with no infamy hit) happen?

  3. #3
    1) in the savegame file you would have to edit the pop issues i assume(not quite sure about that, so maybe i shouldnt answer that ^^). but you can raise jingoism by constantly calling in elections(i know gamey, but since you consider editing saves i figured you wouldnt mind). it took me about 4 or 5 elections and those jingoism events. got lucky and got one not election event where you cna chose to let 20% of your whole population to become jingoistic. after those combined i was able to add 7 wargoals in one war.

    2) im not quite sure again, but you can add core="XYZ" into a province to have it as a core.
    alternatively there is a dynamic core mod. i know its incorporated into popdemand, but im sure you can use it "standalone". its a little bit spammy if youre going on a massive conquering spree. but i can live with it. oyu would have to try it

  4. #4
    Thx for the quick answer I will look into it.

    As for 2) ... I found it was in the 'defines' file in 'common' in EU III, but nothing in the Victoria 2 defines-file like that.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lokilow View Post
    2) In EU III I edited some file so that newly acquired territories became cores of yours sooner, I can't remember how and have been searching for quite a while to find it back lol ... can anyone share info about this concerning Victoria II?
    In V2, this is handled by event, so you can modify the event to make this trigger sooner. Unless you specify that the modifiers are for a human player only then they will affect the AI as well. The current MTTH is 120 months. I think the simplest thing would be to simply change that to a lower number. It's still going to vary though because it's an event. It doesn't happen like clockwork as it does in EUIII. The file you're interested in is Victoria 2\events\CBsAndCores.txt and the event id is 2560.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Slaists View Post
    Not an answer to the OP's question, but I was wondering if Jingoism also affects the frequency with which "border incidents" (giving an excuse to declare war with no infamy hit) happen?
    Yes, there are bonuses for jingoism, but it's just one of a few modifiers. MTTH is 75 months and the modifiers are:

    - Proletarian Dictatorship and Fascist Dictatorship -- halve the MTTH (largest bonus)
    - Jingoism at 5 and then 10 give incremental bonuses
    - Pacificism at 5 and 10 give incremental penalties
    - Average militancy >= 4
    - Prestige <= 10
    - War policy of jingoism for the ruling party gives a bonus
    - War policy of pro-military for the ruling party gives a smaller bonus
    - War policies of antimilitary and pacificism get incrementally larger penalties
    - Having Nationalism and Imperialism tech
    - Being a GP
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  7. #7
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Don't border incidents require low relations to even fire?
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    Don't border incidents require low relations to even fire?
    Yes, these are just the modifiers that I listed. You do need relations below 40. You also have to be a civilized country, not at war, and own 2 or more states.
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  9. #9
    Target countries for border incident have to be civilized too. So, to my knowledge, there's no acquire state CB event for uncivilized neighbours, which I find strange.
    >

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mauricio View Post
    Target countries for border incident have to be civilized too. So, to my knowledge, there's no acquire state CB event for uncivilized neighbours, which I find strange.
    Yeah, you can only get cut-down-to-size and humiliate CBs on uncivs. Maybe the devs thought that the Establish Protectorate CB was already being generous enough...
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  11. #11
    Covert Mastermind Demi Moderator Secret Master's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heliostellar View Post
    Yeah, you can only get cut-down-to-size and humiliate CBs on uncivs. Maybe the devs thought that the Establish Protectorate CB was already being generous enough...
    Well, in 1.1. it was certainly very generous. China for 8 infamy, anyone?

    Perhaps with the new rules on multi-state uncivs, it might be worth considering an unciv version of border dispute.
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  12. #12
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    Jingoism also rises while at war, at least with low WE, in my experience. I got stuck waiting for enough to raise wargoals on my WCing rampage quite a bit.

    It has had the strange effect that most of my population is now pro-military; every time you add a wargoal, people get kicked from jingoism to pro-military, but jingoism rises steadily at war, so if you're always at war, jingoism is all your population cares about. Unless WE gets high (so I hear...).

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Master View Post
    Well, in 1.1. it was certainly very generous. China for 8 infamy, anyone?

    Perhaps with the new rules on multi-state uncivs, it might be worth considering an unciv version of border dispute.
    Good point. I almost never take advantage of the equivalent event for the uncivs. It really isn't worth it for me when I'm big bad Germany to send troops halfway around the world for a measly couple of Prestige points for embarassing Nejd. I think there would have to be some more restrictions or a much higher MTTH though since this would be a virtual guarantee for additional territory for the receiving GP.

    Has anyone noticed that this event almost always fires when you're in a truce with the power that you got the CB against? That's annoying...
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by JimboOmega View Post
    Jingoism also rises while at war, at least with low WE, in my experience. I got stuck waiting for enough to raise wargoals on my WCing rampage quite a bit.

    It has had the strange effect that most of my population is now pro-military; every time you add a wargoal, people get kicked from jingoism to pro-military, but jingoism rises steadily at war, so if you're always at war, jingoism is all your population cares about. Unless WE gets high (so I hear...).
    That has been my experience, but I don't have any documentation or numbers to back it up. While playing as Germany just recently I was tearing up the world. I had UK at 100% WE almost always and I had something like 3% and never had any issues with Jingoism when demanding more territory... and believe me, I was demanding LOTS of territory!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimboOmega View Post
    Jingoism also rises while at war, at least with low WE, in my experience. I got stuck waiting for enough to raise wargoals on my WCing rampage quite a bit.

    It has had the strange effect that most of my population is now pro-military; every time you add a wargoal, people get kicked from jingoism to pro-military, but jingoism rises steadily at war, so if you're always at war, jingoism is all your population cares about. Unless WE gets high (so I hear...).
    Agreed. Jingoism will increase at a steady rate every day when at war. You can see this happen by bring up the population screen and hovering over the "issues" pie chart while the days progress. IIRC the rate is typically 0.04% - 0.08% per day. One would assume that there are various modifiers on the rate of increase. I do believe that one of these modifiers is WE level, but have not done extensive testing on this. I suspect there is a soft cap and/or diminishing increases as the jingoism percentage increases.

    Every time you add a war goal, you jingoism will drop by a set amount (perhaps 3% or so) and that same amount will be added to "pro military". The implications for the player are...

    1) If you want to add a war goal and don't have enough jingoism, waiting around for a while will solve the problem.
    2) If you are in a lot of wars, you will end up with a large percentage of Pro-Military pops. As a result, the winning party from elections in both upper and lower hoses is likely to have a Pro Military stance.
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  16. #16
    General JimboOmega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastar View Post
    Agreed. Jingoism will increase at a steady rate every day when at war. You can see this happen by bring up the population screen and hovering over the "issues" pie chart while the days progress. IIRC the rate is typically 0.04% - 0.08% per day. One would assume that there are various modifiers on the rate of increase. I do believe that one of these modifiers is WE level, but have not done extensive testing on this. I suspect there is a soft cap and/or diminishing increases as the jingoism percentage increases.

    Every time you add a war goal, you jingoism will drop by a set amount (perhaps 3% or so) and that same amount will be added to "pro military". The implications for the player are...

    1) If you want to add a war goal and don't have enough jingoism, waiting around for a while will solve the problem.
    2) If you are in a lot of wars, you will end up with a large percentage of Pro-Military pops. As a result, the winning party from elections in both upper and lower hoses is likely to have a Pro Military stance.
    This reminds me of a bug I need to post - I think something weird happened where my population was about 44% pro military, but somehome -43% pro military as voters go. It was probably an overflow given the incredible size of my population and the size of them that were pro military.... I think (hope?) it was just a visual issue. But it did lead to landslide elections... and really my population cared about nothing else than the military even before I went WC/infamy crazy. Another reason why election events don't matter especially for large empires.

    Also, it's very possible to run out of it if you are going straight up WC late in the game... 0.08%/day is what, 2.4%/month - but if you are fighting wars on several fronts and adding wargoals as fast as your diplomats will let you, it can run out.

    BTW, does declaring war or etc change the amount of jingoism? I never tested it.

  17. #17
    i have the feeling that some behavior increases the chances of nation wide jingoism events. could have been luck. but it notices a lot more of them when at war and constantly calling elections for the state debates with jingoism options.
    also it helps if you constantly change into the jingoism party, as long as you can handle the global militancy of course.

    when at war and repeatedly choosing the smaller jingoism events i suddenly got loads of that nationwide event that gives 20% jingoism. really helpfull

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Rastar View Post
    Every time you add a war goal, you jingoism will drop by a set amount (perhaps 3% or so) and that same amount will be added to "pro military". The implications for the player are...
    I think that it's a multiplier and it may have some additional modifiers. I just loaded up a save game that I have where as Prussia I had Austria completely occupied. My current Jingoism was at 14.83% and I did two different scenarios: adding an Acquire State and adding a Humiliate CB. Under both scenarios my Jingoism dropped to 11.16% -- so a lose of 3.67%. After I unpaused, I noticed that my Jingoism started climbing again day over day by about 0.02%. At this rate, I'll be able to demand about 4 additional states given how long it takes to send diplomats, which would be on top of the current demands: Assert Hegemony, Acquire Bohemia, Liberate Hungary in Central Hungary, and Acquire Moravia. It seems to me that the limiting value here is really Infamy, not Jingoism.

    Quote Originally Posted by JimboOmega View Post
    Also, it's very possible to run out of it if you are going straight up WC late in the game... 0.08%/day is what, 2.4%/month - but if you are fighting wars on several fronts and adding wargoals as fast as your diplomats will let you, it can run out.

    BTW, does declaring war or etc change the amount of jingoism? I never tested it.
    The manual says that declaring war increases Jingoism, however I just loaded up a game and noticed no immediate increase of Jingoism under the Pop or Politics screens after declaring war. I wonder if you start seeing an increase while you have a positive warscore or win battles

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjoelsvider View Post
    i have the feeling that some behavior increases the chances of nation wide jingoism events. could have been luck. but it notices a lot more of them when at war and constantly calling elections for the state debates with jingoism options.
    also it helps if you constantly change into the jingoism party, as long as you can handle the global militancy of course.

    when at war and repeatedly choosing the smaller jingoism events i suddenly got loads of that nationwide event that gives 20% jingoism. really helpfull
    This has been my experience as well. In looking at the election events there appear to be no modifiers that make the jingoism events more likely to happen, but playing as a very militant Prussia->NGF->Germany in most games I always have very high Jingoism (always >10%) gained from those events.
    Last edited by heliostellar; 24-11-2010 at 20:01.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastar View Post
    2) If you are in a lot of wars, you will end up with a large percentage of Pro-Military pops. As a result, the winning party from elections in both upper and lower hoses is likely to have a Pro Military stance.

    This is worth taking note of by any player running a democracy. If you spend significant time at war, Pro-military and Jingoism will determine all your elections. Depending on what you are doing at war, Pro-military will probably be most important, but you can also sit at war while not adding war goals to beef up Jingoism.

    What this means is that you can really screw yourself in the lower house if you want a party in power at some point that is NOT Pro-military or Jingoistic. My last game as the USA had a single party in power from the Civil War on because of my wars. I simply could not get anyone else elected because all my wars were successful and I had no war exhaustion. I could have let my war exhaustion creep up in order generate support for anti-military, but that seemed kind of gamey. After all, my people had every right to be supportive of a Pro-military policy, since it had paid off time and again. But I know now that if I need to shake up the ruling party, I might need to lay off the wars for a decade or so.


    But it did lead to landslide elections... and really my population cared about nothing else than the military even before I went WC/infamy crazy. Another reason why election events don't matter especially for large empires.
    Jimbo has a point here. Mathematically speaking, this game mechanic has the largest single impact on POP issues, even beyond the impact of demanding reform. I've seen up to 20% of the population demand a single reform one time, but I've seen 25% or more of the population be Pro-military or Jingoism multiple times. And it absolutely dwarfs the impact of election events.

    See, the problem isn't that 50% of the entire population takes a military policy as its issue, with some people supporting the war and some people opposing it. The problem is that 20% of the population is pro-military, another 15% of the population is Jingoism, and no one else cares about the war(s). And they hold on to those views even while at peace for a considerable amount of time. Yes, there is decay, but winning a war that lasted for 5 years, while you had very little WE, means that for the next 10-20 years, elections will be decided by your people's support for that war.

    What I would like to see instead is that POPs start supporting the military policy of the ruling party while at war and with low WE. If the war starts to turn bad, then they will switch issues to the opposite of the ruling party's military policy. So, let's say that Labor is in power in the UK and its 1870. I got to war with the USA and do well for two years. Labor is anti-military, so the POPs start supporting anti-military because the war is going well. Labor's military policy is successful, so POPs are supportive. But then the USA pulls off a brilliant operation and occupies Ireland. WE goes up and people get tired of the war. POP's start supporting Pro-military because Labor's military policy is clearly failing. If the UK can't end the war or start winning, POPs might get unhappy enough with Labor for Labor to lose the next election as POPs vote in a Pro-military party.

    Another change that would be required is that the "cost" of adding war goals would have to be reworked. Under the system I propose, certain war goals would require certain issues to be in-play among your POPs. Annexing states might still require Jingoism, but now it would be harder to get support for that war goal if you do not have a party with that issue in power. On the other hand, Cut-Down-To-Size might require anti-military support among POPs, since it disarms an opponent, rather than takes their land. You would have to decide which war goals would cost which issue among your POPs so that certain ruling parties are encouraged to demand things more in-line with their policies.

    I would also like to see this support for military policy decay much quicker than it does now. Support for military policies that comes from wars should have a half-life of 4 years, just long enough to let the ruling party that does well/does badly face an election. You should not be able to dictate the elections of your country for decades based on a few short wars.

    This system would do several things.

    1) POPs will get angry with parties that are in power when a country is doing badly in a war. As it stands now, an anti-military party in power GAINS support by letting WE climb with nothing to show for it. This is silly.

    2) POPs will get happy with parties that in power when a country is doing well in war. As it stands now, a Pro-military party LOSES support during a war that is going well because POPs gain Jingoism. You would have to purchase war goals to get people to be Pro-military in order to keep people supportive of the ruling party. While this is what most players and the AI does, it is problematic. Simply doing well in the war is, right now, not good enough to help most ruling parties.

    3) In democracies, spending a few years at war will no longer derail your elections for a decade. This might restore some sanity to elections.
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  20. #20
    Interesting. Now I finally know why I frequently end up in that strange suituation where all my population is equally split into jingoists, militarists, anti-militarists and pacifists - and noone really cares about anything else. I win my wars, but since I never bother to build a navy, I also build up WE quickly due to a couple hostile ships floating at my shores.
    >

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