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Upper and Lower House

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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
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The upper house is what decides the passing of reforms and such. While the lower house controls domestic policies such as Economics. Trade. Rights. Those are viewable in the menu that lets you select (Or view if your a democracy) and see what each one does. You can hover your cursor over each policy to find out its effects.
 
The lower house has no effect on the upper house as upper house composition is determined solely by consciousness, militancy, and POP type. The upper house has no effect on the lower house unless you count a POP's ideology determining their lower house vote (only in the cases of there being no issue relevant to the POP available in the election).
 
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Seelensturm said:
What are the interaction between this two? When I want a socialist upper house does it help to promote the issues for the socialist party in the election? Will people slowly switch to the ideology of the ruling party or will they rather abandon it (like it is works today in reality :rolleyes: )?
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If you want a social UH, you need to make your POPs socialists. IMHO a good way to do this is to starve whichever POP types vote in the UH, so as to make them want social reforms like trinket pensions. Usually your UH starts out as Appointed which means you can max out taxes on the Rich strata to encourage aristocrats to become socialist.



guyfawkes5 said:
The lower house has no effect on the upper house as upper house composition is determined solely by consciousness, militancy, and POP type.
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No, UH composition is determined by ideology and your UH laws. Consciousness and militancy can affect the ideology of individual POPs over the long term but do not have any direct effects on the UH.
 
rmdsc said:
If you want a social UH, you need to make your POPs socialists. IMHO a good way to do this is to starve whichever POP types vote in the UH, so as to make them want social reforms like trinket pensions. Usually your UH starts out as Appointed which means you can max out taxes on the Rich strata to encourage aristocrats to become socialist.
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In my experience even an appointed house will turn socialist eventually no matter what :) I usually stay with an appointed upper house all through the game and seldom tax my rich above 0%. In my last game I had a 60% socialist upper house by the 1930's (and it had been over 50% since the 1890's, even before that passing social reforms wasn't hard due to the militancy generated by demand for specific reforms by the general population).
 
rmdsc said:
No, UH composition is determined by ideology and your UH laws. Consciousness and militancy can affect the ideology of individual POPs over the long term but do not have any direct effects on the UH.
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Of course they're direct effects... unless you've never experienced rapid liberal gain during the 'Springtime of Nations' chain of events where POPs gain consciousness? And why are you starting your sentence with disagreement when no-one has framed the topic in terms of 'direct' or 'indirect' except you?
 
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One of the things that determines pop ideology is desire for liberal or socialist reforms. So by selecting election event choices that make your pops want reforms you can make them more socialist. It doesn't matter if the socialist win the lower house elections but the upper house and lower house are both drawing from the same electorate after all. Raising consciousness is also important to getting socialists and it helps a little to have militancy a bit above zero.
 
I wish UH had more say in diplomacy, so if there isn't enough support for the UK declaring war on Russia then they can override your war declaration until you get more support.
 
On an off-topic note, socialists are based off high-consciousness pops, so if you're a European country, doing the Free Press reforms doing the Springtime of Nations event will ensure socialist dominance of your UH in the later part of the century.

I made an experiment to see if this was the case. I used the militancy to pass reforms 'sploit to go from censored press to free press as Scandinavia in 1890, and within five years, socialists went from 20% of my UH to 45%, and my consciousness went up by two points.
 
cerendil said:
On an off-topic note, socialists are based off high-consciousness pops, so if you're a European country, doing the Free Press reforms doing the Springtime of Nations event will ensure socialist dominance of your UH in the later part of the century.

I made an experiment to see if this was the case. I used the militancy to pass reforms 'sploit to go from censored press to free press as Scandinavia in 1890, and within five years, socialists went from 20% of my UH to 45%, and my consciousness went up by two points.
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I know Communist pops are socialists with high mil. but i have to wonder what reactionary/facist pops are... low con high mil?
 
Something else I noticed is that rebels disproportionately appear if you have conquered a region that had more social or political reforms than you did. For example, after taking Alsace, Franche-Comte, and Champagne as Germany from a more liberal France, that area swarmed with Jacobin rebels while the rest of Germany was pristine.

Perhaps fascists disproportionately appear when you conquered a province that was more conservative than your country? High-mil, low-con also works, but I found that rebellions aren't common unless both con and mil are reasonably high.
 
guyfawkes5 said:
Of course they're direct effects... unless you've never experienced rapid liberal gain during the 'Springtime of Nations' chain of events where POPs gain consciousness? And why are you starting your sentence with disagreement when no-one has framed the topic in terms of 'direct' or 'indirect' except you?
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You said the Upper House is determined solely by consciousness, militancy and POP type. That's what I'm disagreeing with. UH composition is based purely on POP ideology; A liberal POP with 0 consciousness will still return a liberal UH, and conservative POP with 10 CON will still return a conservative UH. The part about direct effects is just a qualification on my part that consciousness and militancy will eventually have an effect on the ideology of the POP and hence affect the UH in the long run. My main point is that you are wrong when you said UH is determined solely by consciousness, militancy and POP type.

During the Springtime of Nations POPs become liberals on a massive scale and hence leads to large liberal gains in the UH.
 
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rmdsc said:
You said the Upper House is determined solely by consciousness, militancy and POP type. That's what I'm disagreeing with. UH composition is based purely on POP ideology; A liberal POP with 0 consciousness will still return a liberal UH, and conservative POP with 10 CON will still return a conservative UH. The part about direct effects is just a qualification on my part that consciousness and militancy will eventually have an effect on the ideology of the POP and hence affect the UH in the long run. My main point is that you are wrong when you said UH is determined solely by consciousness, militancy and POP type.

During the Springtime of Nations POPs become liberals on a massive scale and hence leads to large liberal gains in the UH.
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I'm almost speechless... the upper house is made of all those shiny colours denoting ideologies... when I say upper house composition I am obviously talking about those ideologies... do you really think I could articulate about this subject as I do and miss that the upper house is made up of ideologies? Really... that's what your 'disagreement' is?
 
Aethis said:
I wish UH had more say in diplomacy, so if there isn't enough support for the UK declaring war on Russia then they can override your war declaration until you get more support.
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That would be great for the AI, not so great for the player...
 
Tanzhang (譚張) said:
That would be great for the AI, not so great for the player...
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EU: Rome has a system with the senate like it, it works well but yeah since I'm not a WC kinda guy I like the idea. However if there's an event that give you a free CB then I think the CB should override the UH. Guarantees of independence/interventions and non-aggression pacts should play a part but it would stop the AI from randomly declaring war on Russia for a central Siberian province.

Jingoism and Revanchism could all play their bit as well.
 
guyfawkes5 said:
I'm almost speechless... the upper house is made of all those shiny colours denoting ideologies... when I say upper house composition I am obviously talking about those ideologies... do you really think I could articulate about this subject as I do and miss that the upper house is made up of ideologies? Really... that's what your 'disagreement' is?
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Well, when you said "the upper house composition is determined solely by" I sort of assumed you meant the composition of the upper house. As opposed to, you know, the ideology of POPs.

In which case you are still wrong. POP ideology is very strongly affected by reform desires, and this is a much more important factor because it is what generates liberals and socialists (what the OP asked for). Consciousness is a prerequisite for most of these and militancy determines whether the POP will align with a militant or moderate ideology, but it is reform desire that drives the actual changes. And reform desire in turn is generated by the degree to which the POP or other POPs fullfill luxury/everyday/life needs as well as income levels. And there are other factors such as agreement with the ruling party and the national values.

So yeah, neither UH composition nor POP ideology are deteremined solely (key word here) by CON or MIL or POP type. Income levels is a much bigger and more primary factor, since so much of CON and MIL is actually tied to fullfilling needs.
 
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