Mod Idea: North America
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No it is not a secret, but it has nothing to do with CK2 or a mod dealing with CK2 and therefor doesn't belong in this thread.
And now lets get back to the subject of this thread.
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Indeed, it would be a riot to imagine a Native American civilization going up against Vikings or others; however, this idea goes beyond what I’m attempting to do with this mod. I am attempting to imagine a North America where Western Civilization had substantial trans-oceanic contact with it a great deal before Columbus, but in a way that is at the very least possible.
I say ‘possible’ because I want to avoid taking this mod down the path of historical impossibility. For example, one of the most important consequences of European contact with Native American was the unintended ( and in a rare instance - intended ) introduction of infectious diseases like malaria, smallpox, and plague in to the Americas. By all accounts, Native American populations were decimated in the generations following Columbus. In this mod, I have no reason to believe that a similar spread of infectious diseases would not have occurred. In both the real timeline and in any alternative timeline, Native American populations ultimately could provide little resistance to European expansionism. I am not discounting there aren’t other reasons the European powers successfully conquered the Americas; I am just providing an example of an event that occurred and would have occurred in any timeline with absolute certainty: the spread of deadly and devastating infectious diseases into a virgin population.
Having said that, I am working on a back story, which I hope to have completed soon. I will tell you this much: I am developing my story with some constraints I believe the vanilla game will impose on any mod. Namely, religion and culture. Although one might be able to mod in a new religion and/or culture; this might prove rather difficult. Therefore, Native American societies are definitely in the mod as pagans, but their culture may have to be heavily abstracted. They won’t be playable until someone figures out a cheat to play non-Christians characters. An Asian influence/presence on the Pacific coast would be wonderful to explore, but I believe one large culture (Native Americans) not represented in the vanilla game is enough to tackle, at least initially.
Beskar, you have given me a number of ideas, one of which will negate the need to meddle with the prehistoric history of North America.
This sounds like an awesome idea to me. 
I'd be willing to make the map for you and help develop backstory, etc. I have a lot of experience making maps.
I'd be willing to make the map for you and help develop backstory, etc. I have a lot of experience making maps.
Has anyone read Kim Stanley Robinson's Years of Rice and Salt? It postulates a epidemic of some type that wiped out European civilization around 1400 AD. That could be a take off point if you want. In the novel, North America becomes a blend of Native American and Chinese culture. In this case, you could have some European survivors that flee the plague and end up in the New World. They could either be carriers that kill off the local population or don't carry the plagueand blend with them.
An other plausible take off point could be having the Vikings (and/or more radically the Irish) expand earlier and with more commitment to North America, and either replacing or blending with the native population.
If you want to do a pure Fantasy based thing where you simply deposit European medieval culture into North America that's a little different. You could have a Pope like figure in Rhode Island and the New England states like Italian city states. The great plains could be have natives similar to the Mongol hordes. This obviously is more radical and less ground in a reasonable alternate history, but gives you more lee way.
It's an odd project, but pretty cool. I'd be interested in helping if there is interest.
An other plausible take off point could be having the Vikings (and/or more radically the Irish) expand earlier and with more commitment to North America, and either replacing or blending with the native population.
If you want to do a pure Fantasy based thing where you simply deposit European medieval culture into North America that's a little different. You could have a Pope like figure in Rhode Island and the New England states like Italian city states. The great plains could be have natives similar to the Mongol hordes. This obviously is more radical and less ground in a reasonable alternate history, but gives you more lee way.
It's an odd project, but pretty cool. I'd be interested in helping if there is interest.
This sounds like an awesome idea to me.
I'd be willing to make the map for you and help develop backstory, etc. I have a lot of experience making maps.
Intresting idea, may be bit extreme now but I think it would be fun to play ! Gonna follow this topic closely, but can't help you yet as I am still useless at modding
I appreciate all of you who have expressed interest in helping and/or encouragement. I will certainly need help with this endeavor. I hope to post a draft back story tomorrow night. This story is turning into quite a alternate history, but I'm enjoying it. I will certainly be open to criticism.
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It is the EU3 engine, Clausewitz being used. Even then, adding new religion and culture wasn't overly difficult in CK1.
Wikipedia article on Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact can provide some more ideas for inspiration. I think adding a Irish/Welsh influence is also possible.
I think as a main idea, if we decide to make it alternative history as in, these settlements were successful and prospered, is that you could include 'melting pot' ideas where the blends of culture create a new culture (e.g Euro-American). The story goes more along the lines of these people settled and quite dispersed in small kingdom's, counts and duchies, and the over-all theme is to 'Unite America' (if CK1's one is classed as Unite Europe). So you control your dynasty as a settler/native/etc, you have your rise to power and dominance within your circles, while taking a far broader conflicts against those of other mixtures.
Wikipedia article on Pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact can provide some more ideas for inspiration. I think adding a Irish/Welsh influence is also possible.
I think as a main idea, if we decide to make it alternative history as in, these settlements were successful and prospered, is that you could include 'melting pot' ideas where the blends of culture create a new culture (e.g Euro-American). The story goes more along the lines of these people settled and quite dispersed in small kingdom's, counts and duchies, and the over-all theme is to 'Unite America' (if CK1's one is classed as Unite Europe). So you control your dynasty as a settler/native/etc, you have your rise to power and dominance within your circles, while taking a far broader conflicts against those of other mixtures.
Another source might be S. M. Stirling's "Change" novels - they depict what happens after present-day North America is forcibly reduced to a medieval level of technology - and medieval forms of social organization naturally follow.
I would pay money to play a scenario where you can play Viking, Teutonic or other medieval settlers in North America.
Norman castles on Long Island... Saracen raiders with Virginian strongholds... longboats sailing up the Hudson river... abbeys and monasteries spreading into in the American wilderness... Indian tribes forming their own counter-culture, eventually electing their own kings... and the Knights of the Order of St. Matthew on a mission to spread Christianity among the heathens of America, with blessings from the pope!! Awesome!
IIRC there is even an alternate history story about (almost) this, "Empty America" by Doug Hoff, an epic story spread out over 40+ postings on some message boards from the mid-2000s. No Indians (the p.o.d. is that humans never crossed into America in the first place) but it has Vinland Vikings, Saxons fleeing the Norman invasion across the Atlantic, pagan Wends doing the same to escape the baltic crusades, Saracens, monks, and even Chinese people landing in western Mexico
Norman castles on Long Island... Saracen raiders with Virginian strongholds... longboats sailing up the Hudson river... abbeys and monasteries spreading into in the American wilderness... Indian tribes forming their own counter-culture, eventually electing their own kings... and the Knights of the Order of St. Matthew on a mission to spread Christianity among the heathens of America, with blessings from the pope!! Awesome!
IIRC there is even an alternate history story about (almost) this, "Empty America" by Doug Hoff, an epic story spread out over 40+ postings on some message boards from the mid-2000s. No Indians (the p.o.d. is that humans never crossed into America in the first place) but it has Vinland Vikings, Saxons fleeing the Norman invasion across the Atlantic, pagan Wends doing the same to escape the baltic crusades, Saracens, monks, and even Chinese people landing in western Mexico
This might be interesting and related. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia It falls right into the time line as well.
I wasn't very clear earlier. I want to stick to Christian, Muslim, and Pagan religions because there are some major game features that may or may not be hard coded, such as the Crusades, the Papacy, and the HRE. I think we can adapt these featues to suit our needs, but I'd prefer not to throw a culture or religion that isn't in the vanilla game into this mod.
With any luck, I'll post the first part of the story tonight. . .
The Constantinian Persecutions
Shortly after the Battle of the Milvian Bridge in 312 A.D., the Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity with the Edict of Milan, which ended the persecutions began under Diocletian. Constantine desired to strengthen the unity of the Roman Empire with Christianity as its centerpiece; however, matters quickly became complicated as various ‘heresies’ developed. First, church leaders in North Africa called for the harsh treatment of lapsed Christians, those who had during the Great Persecution turned in their Christian brothers to the Roman authorities for punishment and execution. These North African Christians centered around Carthage came to be known by ‘orthodox’ Christians as Donatists; these individuals called for the true penance of these traitor Christians. Distrust of the Imperial Roman government did not stop there in Carthage, for a church leader in the Apostolic See of Alexandria also rebelled against the ‘orthodoxy’ of Constantine and his puppet bishops.
Arius, himself a sympathizer with Donatist beliefs, taught a controversial and popular form of Christology in his role as a presbyter in Alexandria. Although initially rebuked by the then Primate of the Alexandrian Church, the next two church leaders hesitated to react to Arius’ divisive beliefs. After all efforts at reconciliation failed, Emperor Constantine decided in the spring of 325 to convene a council of bishops from across the Empire; the goal of this council was to define ‘orthodox’ doctrine, which in turn would become Constantine’s secular law as well.
ALTERNATE HISTORY BEGINS
Before the Ecumenical Council of Nicaea, as it was later to be called, met in the summer of 325, matters became desperately more complex with the sudden death of Pope Alexander of Alexandria. Arius seized the opportunity and managed to get himself elected to the Holy See of Saint Mark the Apostle. Just as the Emperor and his puppet bishops were to meet in Nicaea in a few weeks, so too did Arius invite as many sympathetic eastern bishops as possible to Alexandria for their own council. As both councils met simultaneously in their respective cities, the two opposing groups feverishly worked to define a doctrine to counter the other’s. At the conclusion of these debates, the Trinitarians and the Arians each adopted a creed. For the Trinitarian Christians, the Nicene Creed affirmed the co-equal and co-eternal nature of the Trinity; on the other hand, the Alexandrian Creed described the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one of inequality. In other words, the Alexandrian Creed declared that the Son is subservient to the Father; the Son had a beginning. Both sides now were resolutely entrenched with neither side willing to compromise.
As soon as the bishops at Nicaea had learned of Pope Arius’ Great Council, they immediately resolved to not only excommunicate and depose Arius but also to excommunicate any who would recognize Arius’ legitimacy or recite his heretical creed. In his place, the Council of Nicaea elected Athanasius as Pope of Alexandria; he had been instrumental as the author of their creed. Emperor Constantine pledged the full military support of the Empire, up to and including leading the army himself into Egypt. When word reached Arius of the Emperor’s plot, he knew resistance would not be an option. Constantine was reigniting the persecutions of the past, except this time it was fellow Christians persecuting Christians all in the name of orthodoxy.
He and his followers had to flee, somewhere the Emperor and his orthodoxy could not follow. In his studies, Arius had read that the ancient Phoenicians had sailed great distances around Africa; it was even said that they had discovered a great land far beyond the Pillars of Hercules. Convinced that he and his flock would face martyrdom in Egypt if they remained, Pope Arius addressed a large crowd gathered in Alexandria:
My Brothers and Sisters in Christ, I speak to you at a time of great peril. Many of you remember the persecutions we endured in the recent past; thousands of Christians were martyred for their faith before the pagan idols of the Emperor. I tell you now that the persecutions are renewed with a new fanaticism, one borne by this so-called Christian Emperor. He means us to yield to his interpretation of the scriptures and not our own; this is heresy! Although we ought to fight the Emperor and his puppet bishops here, I believe the Lord has called us to preserve this learning for posterity. We will not achieve salvation of our children with their martyrdom. Therefore, we must flee Egypt and the East, for as it says in the Gospel of Saint Matthew: “When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel, before the Son of man comes.” Do not fear, my children, for the Emperor and his troops will not arrive for a few months; we have time to make our preparations for the great journey ahead. We shall board the ships and first set sail for Carthage; there we have allies who I know will join us in our cause and journey. From there, our combined force will travel to Insula Canaria ( the Canaries Islands ), and beyond it is the unknown. The Lord has called us to explore not only the mystery of His Being but also the mystery of His World; he will guide us away from danger and toward a New World!
The shipbuilding technology of the Ancient Egyptians and Phoenicians had been rediscovered over two generations prior to these events, and a number of shipyards in the Eastern Empire had been constructing ocean-going vessels for some time now. They had only been used locally thus far, but Arius was confident of their full potential: to carry he and his followers across the ocean to safety.
After a month of preparations, Pope Arius and his followers in Alexandria set sail in a dozen ocean-going vessels toward Carthage. Among the followers were a few thousand souls, mostly Hellenized Egyptians but ,also a few hundred Greeks and Libyans. The vessels were filled with all the provisions they would need for the long journey and to build a new home. Included in the cargo were horses, cattle, chickens, and seeds for wheat, sugarcane, rice, and cotton. Also included were the relics of Saint Mark himself, for Arius intended to found a new Apostolic See wherever they settled. Arius’ plan was to assemble at Carthage before setting off for Insula Canaria; there were a number of other sympathetic bishops who attended the Council at Alexandria who were going to meet there with their own followers in similar ocean-going vessels.
The Alexandrian Fleet secretly arrived in Carthage, where they landed a sizeable force of militia to join up with a group of Donatist Roman Africans to storm the Roman governor’s citadel. After they captured he and his troops, the Arians and Donatists were free to prepare for their journey and await the arrival of the other bishops. After the Council of Nicaea, the Donatists were also heretics, and thus they became targets of the secular Roman authorities. Donatus Magnus, Bishop of Carthage and leader of the Donatists in North Africa, took little convincing of the wisdom of Arius’ plan; he knew that after the Emperor punished the Egyptians, his flock in North Africa would be next.
After wintering in Carthage, the contingent of Arians and Donatists fled the Empire and set sail for Insula Canaria. Although he might have hoped for more of his fellow Arian bishops to join him in Carthage, Arius knew of the hardship that any people would face in such a journey. Still, once they arrived in Insula Canaria, he instructed some monks attached to the mission to carve a stone and place it on the island; the marker would leave coded instructions to any bishop familiar with his Thalia. When they arrived in the New World, Arius decided that he might risk a return journey for some of these monks; they would be tasked with completing the inscription with precise directions to wherever they settled.
Finally, in the spring of 326, the group set sail toward the west, to the fabled lands the Ancient Phoenicians had found a thousand years earlier. With few experienced sailors among them, the crews struggled with navigation, but after a month and a half out from Insula Canaria they spotted land. They landed in a land we today would call Louisiana, and they settled in an area near the mouth of a great river. They called the settlement: New Alexandria.
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This is the first of possibly four or five waves of settlement I intend to imagine. Here I have 'heretical' Christians from Egypt and North Africa traveling to Louisiana. There they are going to establish a new See of St. Mark. As far as culture goes, these peoples are primarily Hellenized Egyptians, Greeks, and Roman North Africans. I imagine the predominate languages would be Koine Greek, Coptic, and Latin. The city of New Alexandria itself may be rather cosmopolitan but I imagine the different cultures will have leaders who will settle other areas around New Alexandria, up the Mississippi even. I imagine New Alexandria itself developing quickly as a theocracy with the dynamic leader Arius himself as its head. Donatus Magnus may found some other community along the coast.
If you are wondering why I started as early as the Council of Nicaea, I think it is necessary to have these kingdoms/cultures as well established as possible for the game start 1066. I'll write stories concerning the settlement and expansion later.
Comments, criticisms, and thoughts are welcome.
If you are wondering why I started as early as the Council of Nicaea, I think it is necessary to have these kingdoms/cultures as well established as possible for the game start 1066. I'll write stories concerning the settlement and expansion later.
Comments, criticisms, and thoughts are welcome.
I like the story, though I don't know if I like the name "New Alexandria." I think it would be more appropriate that they either name the city after their leader (something like Aria or Ariople) or since their voyage is religiously founded in nature something named after their religion specifically (like Christiana or Christianople) or something based on the geographic or general nature of their situation (like the greek word for hope or river delta or something followed by an appropriate suffix).
...and of course the idea of transatlantic voyage with ships from that age is fairly unrealistic but I don't really care since that's the point of the whole thing.
I was wondering what your ideas are for the other waves of settlement? Vinland Vikings? Normans? Arabs? What year do you plan on for a start date?
...and of course the idea of transatlantic voyage with ships from that age is fairly unrealistic but I don't really care since that's the point of the whole thing.
I was wondering what your ideas are for the other waves of settlement? Vinland Vikings? Normans? Arabs? What year do you plan on for a start date?
I agree with you on the name of the original settlement. I'm not very good with naming things, which is why I am open to suggestions here.
My ideas for the other waves of settlement are the following:
Second Wave - 5th Century
-Visigoths of Iberia
-Vandals of North Africa
Third Wave - 7th Century
-Irish
-Picts
-Welsh?
Fourth Wave -8th Century
-Franks
-Vikings
Final Wave - 9th Century
-Moors of Iberia
I have ideas about each including their motivation. I have a rought idea for some where I want them to have settlements, but I'm not ready to put that out there just yet.
I plan to start with an important North American event in 1066.
Keep the comments coming.
Interesting choices for second and third waves, fourth and fifth waves seem pretty straightforward. I'm intrigued to hear your thoughts for all of them though.
Another question... so did you decide that there will be native americans present as well? I think it would be interesting to have some partially christianized native tribal groups spread out... kind of like the russian situation.
Also, what are you thinking of for map boundaries? Just north america, or south america too? How far north? The farthest most of the islands of north america and the ocean there should obviously be impossible, but where to draw the boundary?
And what do you think of some kind of barbarian invasion at some point? Like the mongols, but maybe it's japanese or african in origin?
Another question... so did you decide that there will be native americans present as well? I think it would be interesting to have some partially christianized native tribal groups spread out... kind of like the russian situation.
Also, what are you thinking of for map boundaries? Just north america, or south america too? How far north? The farthest most of the islands of north america and the ocean there should obviously be impossible, but where to draw the boundary?
And what do you think of some kind of barbarian invasion at some point? Like the mongols, but maybe it's japanese or african in origin?
I got an idea.
The thing about the Atlantic, is that it is quite deadly for small ships. For a story change, what about the creation of a New Ark ? (akin to Noah) Keep the story up to the part about him leaving to the new world, and using something along this lines:
The Pope Arius has a dream of a great flood, and set about creating a great ship for his believers, which they boarded. On the final night, there was a storm, believing it will 'flood the world', he uses the old legends of a New World to the West, so he set sail towards it. There he set up New Alexandria (etc)
So now, you got a reason for a big ship (or a number of them) able to cross the Atlantic, and a tale which incorporates their beliefs as they cross. (etc)
As for the Muslims, the Chinese record they found an area called 'Mu-Lan-Pi', which is the west coast of America (California). So if you are doing the whole of America, and not just the East Coast. You can have Muslim settlements near the Chinese. Though by your 'waves', it seems to be East Coast only.
The thing about the Atlantic, is that it is quite deadly for small ships. For a story change, what about the creation of a New Ark ? (akin to Noah) Keep the story up to the part about him leaving to the new world, and using something along this lines:
The Pope Arius has a dream of a great flood, and set about creating a great ship for his believers, which they boarded. On the final night, there was a storm, believing it will 'flood the world', he uses the old legends of a New World to the West, so he set sail towards it. There he set up New Alexandria (etc)
So now, you got a reason for a big ship (or a number of them) able to cross the Atlantic, and a tale which incorporates their beliefs as they cross. (etc)
As for the Muslims, the Chinese record they found an area called 'Mu-Lan-Pi', which is the west coast of America (California). So if you are doing the whole of America, and not just the East Coast. You can have Muslim settlements near the Chinese. Though by your 'waves', it seems to be East Coast only.
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I don't think it would make sense to have Chinese settlers. The Chinese for the most part didn't care about anything outside of china and considered everything else as inferior worthless backwaters, they wouldn't even dare colonize something as close as Taiwan. If any colonization came from asia, it would either be some southeast asian maritime power slowly island hopping eastwards, or some northern inuit type of group going across to alaska. Both of which would be interesting to have in game, but not as any real major developed polities.
Any CK game about North America needs to have a way for dealing with "empty" provinces and colonization. The CK1 model of colonization was that you simply conquer a province, and then its inhabitants become your subjects... there's nothing about population movement, or empty provinces becoming densely settled.
That would be a difficulty for a North American scenario, since you need some way to have empty (i.e. nomadic) provinces of population density < 1 per sq.mile turn into a land of medieval villages, farms and so on. In Europe, almost every place that can be settled is already settled, but in North America you have nomads, and a place being largely empty does not mean it can't develop into a busting city once people build permanent settlements there.
That would be a difficulty for a North American scenario, since you need some way to have empty (i.e. nomadic) provinces of population density < 1 per sq.mile turn into a land of medieval villages, farms and so on. In Europe, almost every place that can be settled is already settled, but in North America you have nomads, and a place being largely empty does not mean it can't develop into a busting city once people build permanent settlements there.
Yeah but we're talking about ck2 and I'm pretty sure it was mentioned that there will be up to 8 available spots for towns or whatever that you can put in each province if you can afford to expand, so I imagine the sparsely populated areas will have only one fief in a province initially and with investment you can slowly develop it to more.