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Thread: Mod Idea: North America

  1. #1
    First Lieutenant VenetianPriest's Avatar
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    Mod Idea: North America

    I had idea about creating a mod depicting an alternate history; one in which Western Civilization developed in North America and not in Europe.

    I had started developing ideas when CKII was announced!

    I know its too early for mod talk, but anyone interested could at least join me in developing ideas.

    Naturally, the biggest task would developing a map.
    Last edited by VenetianPriest; 14-11-2010 at 14:52.
    Igitur ecclesiae unius et unicae unum corpus, unum caput, non duo capita, quasi monstrum.

  2. #2
    Colonel the_legion's Avatar
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    A bit to fictional and to much changes are needed for this.
    I doubt we'll see it happen.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by the_legion View Post
    A bit to fictional and to much changes are needed for this.
    I doubt we'll see it happen.
    What?

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    Star Swirl the Bearded Baneslave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_legion View Post
    A bit to fictional and to much changes are needed for this.
    I doubt we'll see it happen.
    True, unless VenetianPriest is willing and disciplined enough to work this through, this will happen.

    Good luck, anyho.

  5. #5
    Neutral Jingoist cosmeIII's Avatar
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    If you think about it, this project will be very very hard to finish.
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  6. #6
    First Lieutenant VenetianPriest's Avatar
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    I suppose I'm really thinking of a 'fantasia' type mod.

    I can see the premise for such a mod in two lights: a post-apocalyptic North America where technology has regressed to a match High Middle Age Europe, or an Earth where humanity essentially developed in the New World (the Americas).

    Both present their own challenges for a mod; for instance, a post-apocalyptic world would have to account for our own history, politics, and culture. On the other hand, it would not be very difficult to name places or peoples. Still, the Old World America scenario would have its own creative challenges and freedoms.

    I'll briefly outline how I see am Old World America scenario in terms of climate, cultures, and countries.

    Given the arid climate of the American Southwest and northern regions of Mexico, I believe you would have seen societies develop in this region along similar lines as those societies that developed in the Middle East and Egypt. Just as agriculture was dependent on irrigation and other similar expensive engineering projects in Mesopotamia and Egypt, so too would the American Southwest develop along similar lines. Here, one would probably find governments that were rather centralized and powerful. In contrast, the eastern portions of North America would probably resemble much of Europe. Decentralized feudal kingdoms would cover the landscape where water and decent farmland were plentiful. Naturally, any people in control of land where a major river entered the ocean would have large important cities located at that river's mouth. So the Mississippi, the Columbia, the Hudson, and the Potomac Rivers, just to name a few, would all see important cities located either at their mouths or further inland.

    Another problem in an attempt to translate High Middle Age Europe to North America is the absence of an essential geographical feature of Europe: the Mediterranean Sea. The Caribbean Sea and the Gulf of Mexico are poor substitutes for the Mediterranean, in my opinion. For one thing, the tropical climates in this region are not very conducive to large scale societies developing and maintaining sustainable empires or kingdoms. Absent modern medicine and sanitation, societies that develop in tropical climates seldom reach critical mass on account of humid climate diseases.

    As you can see, there are several intriguing challenges to this mod idea.

    Most of the above are not original ideas, but are borrowed from elsewhere. If you would like to know where, PM me.

    Any ideas/thoughts?
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  7. #7
    Ill Growl of Talking Polar Mongoose's Avatar
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    An interesting idea for a mod. It would be very much fantasy of course, but there is nothing wrong with that. I like your ideas for the climate and resultant cultures/countries, especially the importance of river systems. As you say, North America lacks a suitable equivalent to the Mediterranean, and I can picture rivers assuming a very important role in such a scenario as a way to cover the vast distances.

    I suppose an important question to ask would be what stopped North America advancing further than it did in real life and then figuring out what to change so that civilisation there advances further.

    The Pacific coast would be interesting under such a scenario, with its gentle climate but geographical isolation.
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  8. #8
    First Lieutenant VenetianPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Mongoose View Post
    I suppose an important question to ask would be what stopped North America advancing further than it did in real life and then figuring out what to change so that civilisation there advances further.
    From what I understand, one of the most important reasons that Pre-Columbian societies had not advanced on par with European and Asian civilizations was on account of a general lack of animal species suitable for domestication. Agriculture drives human civilizations forward, so as long as agricultural inputs continue to decrease while agricultural outputs continue to increase, human civilizations will prosper both in size and complexity. In the High Middle Ages, Europeans developed such agricultural innovations as the three-field system, heavy plows, and the switch from oxen to horses as beasts of burden. It is this latter innovation where Pre-Columbian civilizations suffered, for they did not have horses or oxen. To my knowledge, the only domesticated beasts of burden in the Americas were the llamas and alpacas of South America.

    There may have been other factors I am not considering, but this appears to be a rather obvious one. On an aside, this may explain, at least in part, why other regions of the world did not develop as fast as others; for example, Sub-Saharan Africans only had access one native species suitable as a beast of burden: the donkey.

    Thankfully, we don't have to worry about these things as it is a fantasy. Scientists believe there were many other species suitable for domestication in the Americas during the last ice age, but they became extinct. (There is a bit of disagreement about how they died out.) In this world, they simply won't be extinct; the people of North America can have full access to all the species found in Eurasia.
    Last edited by VenetianPriest; 15-11-2010 at 00:36.
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  9. #9
    Game Over Man! Count Lake's Avatar
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    Sabretooth Tiger Cavalry instead of Knights?

  10. #10
    First Lieutenant VenetianPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Lake View Post
    Sabretooth Tiger Cavalry instead of Knights?
    LOL

    But seriously, horses only became extinct in the Americas about 10,000 years ago. Let us suppose that Late Pleistocene extinction event spared horses as well as oxen, leaving them to be domesticated by human societies.

    If you are from North America, haven’t you ever wondered what your home would have looked like if Native American civilizations had developed along similar lines as Europe and Asia? What if there had been a great fortress or castle built near your favorite natural wonder, a national park for instance. How would this have changed the borders of our homes? How might the political dynamics of this part of the world have worked? Would it have been the Americans who explored, conquered, and settled a less advanced Europe?

    At this point, I would invite anyone interested in these ideas to explore with me the possibility of developing a mod like this. Personally, I feel those from North America would especially be interested. On the other hand, I have learned a great deal about European geography from playing paradox games over the years. Perhaps our European brothers might be interested in exploring North America in the kind of detail Europe is typically covered in games like CKII, VICII, and EUIII. I cannot think of a better time to at least explore ideas for a mod than before the game is released.

    The CKII time frame is perfect for such a mod because we won’t have to concern ourselves too much with what is going on in Europe or Asia, but South America may pose a threat. . .
    Igitur ecclesiae unius et unicae unum corpus, unum caput, non duo capita, quasi monstrum.

  11. #11
    Ill Growl of Talking Polar Mongoose's Avatar
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    An interesting thought is what happens if Europe develops as it did historically, and the Vikings arrive in Vinland only to discover an advanced civilisation there. Could lead to some interesting events, or could add value to the otherwise frozen north east of America.
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  12. #12
    Captain Melichai's Avatar
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    Ah Cmon, you might as well go out and give us the Horseclans Mod with psychic Sabretooth Tiger Cavalry - it would resolve a lot of the existensial problems you mention with regard to horses/oxen.

  13. #13
    First Lieutenant VenetianPriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Mongoose View Post
    An interesting thought is what happens if Europe develops as it did historically, and the Vikings arrive in Vinland only to discover an advanced civilisation there. Could lead to some interesting events, or could add value to the otherwise frozen north east of America.
    Exactly my thoughts, but we could go anywhere with this mod. If there is anyone interested, I would like to split NA up into different regions. We would tackle each region as a single unit; only later could we look at how each region fits into a whole. There are lots of things to consider in each region; for instance, agriculture, culture, kingdoms, religion, geography, and trade.
    Igitur ecclesiae unius et unicae unum corpus, unum caput, non duo capita, quasi monstrum.

  14. #14
    Well, I believe the Mayans conducted trade with the Egyptians, which is apparently part of why both Civilizations have Pyramids and interesting items such as Tobacco and Coco found in a mummy.

    With other encounters such as the Vikings visiting America, there is a possibility that the America's could evolve easily enough to provide a basis for your alternative history.

    The biggest issue would be the lack of any real authority such as the Roman Empire providing a civilization groundwork, system of government and other various circumstances, and the constant influx of rivalry between major powers, each evolving along different paths, and ending up uniting in 'melting pot' moments, which shaped the continent.

    You would have to shape a back story, and once you have dealt with that, you can easily move forward. An idea could be having a few major factions (eg. Christian, Muslim, Pagan), such as those from Europe (Viking faction) centered North East, the Central-American (Mayan) faction, various tribes in the middle, and even some Chinese/Mongolian influence on the West coast.

    What could make it interesting, is that they could be technologically inferior to starting Europe in the real game, but they could have some unique technologies (and others similar), and through interaction which these factions, you can form a 'Europe' situation.

    For example, completely making something up. Mayan's have a superior 'church' technology, from the Viking invasion of a province, they encounter this technology, and then it could slowly spread throughout the factions domain (sort of like, 'you discovered optics technology from Muslims' event).

    Cannot give any word on any commitment to working on it at this time, but I would be happy to throw ideas about if you want any.

  15. #15
    Star Swirl the Bearded Baneslave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Mongoose View Post
    An interesting thought is what happens if Europe develops as it did historically, and the Vikings arrive in Vinland only to discover an advanced civilisation there. Could lead to some interesting events, or could add value to the otherwise frozen north east of America.
    European Vikings and their American counterparts meet in Greenland. Hilarity ensues.

    Sounds quite interesting, actually.

  16. #16
    Lt. General Beleg32's Avatar
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    Intresting idea, may be bit extreme now but I think it would be fun to play ! Gonna follow this topic closely, but can't help you yet as I am still useless at modding
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  17. #17
    Innocent Bystander Ben Music's Avatar
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    Check this out:
    REMOVED LINK

    Or don't as per forum rules.
    Others can check out the alternated histories for a medieval North America themselves.
    Last edited by Ben Music; 16-11-2010 at 20:51. Reason: Draconian Forum Rules

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    Sig Sig Sputnik Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Music View Post
    Check this out:
    http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=132965[/url]
    You are not allowed to direclty link to another forum

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    Please edit your post ASAP.

  19. #19
    Innocent Bystander Ben Music's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Veldmaarschalk;11820811]You are not allowed to direclty link to another forum

    See the
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    If I might ask, what is the reasoning for such a rule?
    Last edited by Ben Music; 16-11-2010 at 20:53. Reason: Including quote

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    Sig Sig Sputnik Supermoderator Veldmaarschalk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Music View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    You are not allowed to direclty link to another forum

    See the
    forum-rules
    If I might ask, what is the reasoning for such a rule?
    If you have questions about forum-policy or moderator-actions use the PM system.

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