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Thread: Naval task forces/carrier groups

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    Naval task forces/carrier groups

    Forgive another stupid question - still learning

    What are the best naval groupings to use? I see in another thread that carriers and traditional surface ship groups don't appear to work well together - that sometimes happened in HOI2 that the carriers failed to engage while BBs and BCs went in close and dirty, often leading to losses that should not have happened. I can understand this if the weather/visibility is unfavourable for aircraft, but in clear weather a carrier equipped force should have a clear advantage over a non carrier equipped force in terms of detection and range of engagement surely?

    Is this repeated in HOI3? If so, what naval tactics do people use with the new game?

  2. #2
    Field Marshal OKH's Avatar
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    Carriers stay out of range, of all surface combat ships. They are more easily engaged by aircraft, CAG/NAV/TAC/CAS. If you are going up against a navy with CV's....stay in range of your land based air.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OKH View Post
    Carriers stay out of range, of all surface combat ships. They are more easily engaged by aircraft, CAG/NAV/TAC/CAS. If you are going up against a navy with CV's....stay in range of your land based air.
    I see. So will CAG attempt to engage enemy ships if its carrier is part of a force containing normal surface ships? In HOI2, they often seemed not to engage and a BB v BB engagement would take place while the carrier(s) stood idle. I guess that depends on detection and weather to a large extent.

    The orders interface is more sophisticated in HOI3 too, so I guess it also depends on what instructions are given?

    As, say the Royal Navy or USN, how would you deploy your carriers? As Carrier and escort only groups, or combine them with BB's or BC's?

  4. #4
    CVs work best when they are part of CV groups (w/o any other type of capital ship) CVLs can be added as escorts to BB groups and they do make a difference there (in case of BB force vs BB force). If you want to try to go back a couple of pages back there are 2 or 3 threads about how naval warfare works in SF that you might find very helpfull (am to lazy to search them myself to provide the links).

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    Field Marshal OKH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redandwhite View Post
    I see. So will CAG attempt to engage enemy ships if its carrier is part of a force containing normal surface ships? In HOI2, they often seemed not to engage and a BB v BB engagement would take place while the carrier(s) stood idle. I guess that depends on detection and weather to a large extent.

    The orders interface is more sophisticated in HOI3 too, so I guess it also depends on what instructions are given?

    As, say the Royal Navy or USN, how would you deploy your carriers? As Carrier and escort only groups, or combine them with BB's or BC's?
    I'll use the example of what I faced while I was conducting Sealion. I had a blocking fleet of 3CA,3CL and 4DD....which was attacked by a RN force of 1CV+5DD. The CAG quickly damaged 1CA, before my int chewed them up. The surface engagement...my ships could and did shoot at all the RN DD's...however, the CV stayed out of range. Without it's CAG, I sent in NAV's and chased them off. I sank 2DD's and heavily damaged the CV and the other DD's. I suffered heavy damage to 1CA, and 2Cl's and 1DD. My blockade held and the invasion continued. All my damaged ships were repaired.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by OKH View Post
    I'll use the example of what I faced while I was conducting Sealion. I had a blocking fleet of 3CA,3CL and 4DD....which was attacked by a RN force of 1CV+5DD. The CAG quickly damaged 1CA, before my int chewed them up. The surface engagement...my ships could and did shoot at all the RN DD's...however, the CV stayed out of range. Without it's CAG, I sent in NAV's and chased them off. I sank 2DD's and heavily damaged the CV and the other DD's. I suffered heavy damage to 1CA, and 2Cl's and 1DD. My blockade held and the invasion continued. All my damaged ships were repaired.
    Ah, I see. So the carriers CAG did engage your blocking force, but this was within the range of your shore based fighters, which attacked the CAG and in IRL would have resulted in something similar to your scenario above.

    Had this been in open sea out of range of your land based air assets, I guess your force would have come off worse because they would have been engaged by the CAG before they could get in range of the CV and her screens?

    Hey, I'm getting quite good at this

  7. #7
    Field Marshal OKH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redandwhite View Post
    Ah, I see. So the carriers CAG did engage your blocking force, but this was within the range of your shore based fighters, which attacked the CAG and in IRL would have resulted in something similar to your scenario above.

    Had this been in open sea out of range of your land based air assets, I guess your force would have come off worse because they would have been engaged by the CAG before they could get in range of the CV and her screens?

    Hey, I'm getting quite good at this
    As Ger, I always keep the KGM within the range of land based air. The primary purpose of the KGM, is to support the invasion of the UK. With that objective, they will not be out of the protective range of the Luftwaffe. CV's are too expensive for a Ger, that has to worry about France and the SU.

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    Lt. General anweRU's Avatar
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    Once GER gets CVs, life can be very interestings. CAG didn't do much in the pre-1.3 games, but are they deadly in SF - though I'm currently playing the ICE mod and it might have altered the balance a bit. Anyway, after two active years my two light carriers have more ships sunk between the two of them than the combined total of all of my surface ships. The ships sunk by CAGs in port strikes also get added to that total by the way.

  9. #9
    Field Marshal OKH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anweRU View Post
    Once GER gets CVs, life can be very interestings. CAG didn't do much in the pre-1.3 games, but are they deadly in SF - though I'm currently playing the ICE mod and it might have altered the balance a bit. Anyway, after two active years my two light carriers have more ships sunk between the two of them than the combined total of all of my surface ships. The ships sunk by CAGs in port strikes also get added to that total by the way.
    In 1.4 ships sunk by Tac/Nav do not register on the sunk ship report. Has that been fixed in SF?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redandwhite View Post
    Forgive another stupid question - still learning

    What are the best naval groupings to use? I see in another thread that carriers and traditional surface ship groups don't appear to work well together - that sometimes happened in HOI2 that the carriers failed to engage while BBs and BCs went in close and dirty, often leading to losses that should not have happened. I can understand this if the weather/visibility is unfavourable for aircraft, but in clear weather a carrier equipped force should have a clear advantage over a non carrier equipped force in terms of detection and range of engagement surely?

    Is this repeated in HOI3? If so, what naval tactics do people use with the new game?
    The most punch in SF is when you attack a mega fleet of 15 CV + 15 escorts per fleet

    Quote Originally Posted by OKH View Post
    In 1.4 ships sunk by Tac/Nav do not register on the sunk ship report. Has that been fixed in SF?
    No
    Last edited by flecha224; 01-11-2010 at 18:40.

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    Lt. General anweRU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OKH View Post
    In 1.4 ships sunk by Tac/Nav do not register on the sunk ship report. Has that been fixed in SF?
    Unfortunately not, only CAGs do. I assume it is because CAGs are expected to be the "weapons" of a ship, and hence that CV/CVL/CVE gets credit for the sinking. If the CAG is land based, then the ship still shows up in the sunk ledger, but the sinker info is left blank.

  12. #12
    Lt. General fbaker4's Avatar
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    I guess you can still tell then - unless rogue waves and narwals are sinking them?

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    Is this true?
    Quote Originally Posted by gramis View Post
    CVLs can be added as escorts to BB groups and they do make a difference there (in case of BB force vs BB force).
    If it is I'll have to start building CVLs and sticking them with their single CAGs into SAGs. BTW When you say they make a difference in ship vs ship, do they also work as Air protection against CAGs/NAVs on Intercept?

    Quote Originally Posted by OKH View Post
    In 1.4 ships sunk by Tac/Nav do not register on the sunk ship report. Has that been fixed in SF?
    Quote Originally Posted by flecha224 View Post
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by anweRU View Post
    Unfortunately not, only CAGs do. I assume it is because CAGs are expected to be the "weapons" of a ship, and hence that CV/CVL/CVE gets credit for the sinking. If the CAG is land based, then the ship still shows up in the sunk ledger, but the sinker info is left blank.
    I figured as much, sunk plenty of ships in Port by NAVs (with & without the surprise bonus AFAIK) -know I'm doing so by blocking them in port with a SAG stationed outside and watching their ship disappear from the ledger both during and over a few strikes. Always a pity they don't show up in the ships sunk stats. Wish they did but also wish CAGs got the surprise bonus too. I gather that is not in SF, although I think 75% is too high.

    @felcha224 15 CVs in one CAG, amazing overkill!
    Last edited by Saulius; 02-11-2010 at 03:35.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Saulius View Post
    Is this true?

    If it is I'll have to start building CVLs and sticking them with their single CAGs into SAGs. BTW When you say they make a difference in ship vs ship, do they also work as Air protection against CAGs/NAVs on Intercept?
    1 single cag wont provide much in air protection, but a fleet consisting of say 2xBB,1Cvl&escorts will pretty much wipe the ocean floor with a fleet of 3BB&escorts w/o air cover.

  15. #15
    Second Lieutenant Séb.D's Avatar
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    Does this mean that the issue (at least in Semper Fi) of having the capital ships (BB, BC or CA) charging alone while the screens and CVs wait in the back does not apply to CVLs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gramis View Post
    1 single CAG wont provide much in air protection, but a fleet consisting of say 2xBB,1Cvl&escorts will pretty much wipe the ocean floor with a fleet of 3BB&escorts w/o air cover.
    Ah, I see. How about 3 CVLs and their single CAGs on Intercept in a SAG providing a real effective amount of air cover?

    Quote Originally Posted by Séb.D View Post
    Does this mean that the issue (at least in Semper Fi) of having the capital ships (BB, BC or CA) charging alone while the screens and CVs wait in the back does not apply to CVLs?
    Um, I don't think so, although I still haven't got SF. I'm hoping to use CVLs for that but still create proper CAGs. Oh I plan to get SF soon while I'm still playing 1.4 'til then.

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    What's the story with CAGs fighting until they die? I can't seem to order them to stop attacking or CAGing...even when they have 0% Org, and are losing manpower. Where is the % thingie from HoI2 - the one where you specifiy below N percent, stand down?

  18. #18
    If a CV fleet wants to support BB surface fleet, should the CV fleet tag along in the same seazone as the BB fleet under normal CAG duties (but seperate fleet) or it should adjacent where the CV send in her CAG fleet using Naval strike order to support the surface fleet who is engaged?

    In Hoi2, if a CV and her friendly BB are in the same battle, the battle is dominated by the CV who attacks from max range while the accompanying BB does nothing as the battles are out of range. I wonder how much of these rules are applicable to Hoi3.
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    [QUOTE=flecha224;11783664]The most punch in SF is when you attack a mega fleet of 15 CV + 15 escorts per fleet

    Oh man, the hull stacking penalty is probably almost 100% here?!! Is it still possibly effective?
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    [QUOTE=Thundergate;11789132]
    Quote Originally Posted by flecha224 View Post
    The most punch in SF is when you attack a mega fleet of 15 CV + 15 escorts per fleet

    Oh man, the hull stacking penalty is probably almost 100% here?!! Is it still possibly effective?
    Of course. The fleet never engages, but it doesn't matter. CAGs do the dirty job, and the air stacking penalty for that mission is very low.
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