Another thread suggesting possible solutions to Assimilation and the UK megabeast

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ohdear

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Aug 30, 2009
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Having thought it through (at least as far as my understanding of programming goes) this is what I think could be done to fix some of the current issues and provide a more balanced and fun game, whilst hopefully not slowing down the game late on. Some of them are based on what I think could be realistic others I accept are not but it must be remembered that this is a game not an absolute history simulator and if simulating real life cannot be perfectly acheived then at least a fun game playable right through can be.

Could someone with more understanding of the game mechanics please read this and let me know if you think this is acheivable by modifying files or if you think it would throw up other problems.

1) Stop assimilation completely except for people immigrating into a country.

I am not sure that the idea of assimilation is that realistic. For example - Indians who choose to live in India are not going to turn British in a few years so stop assimilation in colonies completely; people who choose to immigrate to a country may wish to assume the cultural ways of that country. Disabling it would certainly balance the game more and would it not speed the game up if there are not constant checks for assimilation?

2) Prevent the gain of core provinces that are not connected to your homeland or at least in the same continent as you.

Possibly not realistic but I am not so sure. Playing as Germany I should not have been able to turn most of Africa and Arabia into German core territory, I rather think the locals might have objected.

3) Prevent industry being constructed in non-core provinces.

I didn't pay enough attention to this during my games so this may already be the case. If it is then point two would prevent it and if it isn't then it should be. My mighty German empire should not have been powered by an industrial powerhouse in Africa. Just wouldn't happen.

4) Prevent non accepted cultures from being turned into certain unit types when building armies or allow less to be built from the same pop numbers.

I know this is not especially realistic but I don't think that many European Great Powers would provide to much in the way of the military technology to colonial troops for fear that they would use it to rebel as evidenced with Lawrance of Arabia fighting the turks. even in the midst of WW1 the British were very reluctant to give too much weaponary to the Arabs for fear they would "lose control" over the region after the war. This would also help reduce the ability to produce massive armies using your colonies helping restrict the UK monster.

5) Reduce the indusrty score in the game by a factor of twenty (i.e. to 5% of current value, so a score of 1000 becomes 50).

It is wrong that GPs can stay that way on the back of industry alone. This does not properly represent what being a great power was about (influence in the world).

6) Link military score to actual units & technology not soldier pops.

The way the world views my military should not be about the potential to create soldiers it should be about the size and quality of my armed forces. The only potential troops that should figure are the mobilisation troops as these need to be included in the calculation. There should also be a link to technology. Uncivs like China should not be able to have a much higher military scores than GPs just because of troops numbers. Better resourced, trained troops should count for more (same goes for navy). This should be done so that Military score becomes far more significant than industry, but perhaps not quite as significant as Prestige.

7) Increase loss of prestige for defeat in wars (but not increase gain for victory).

There needs to be a far more significant loss of prestige for being beaten in war than at present where it is meaningless (almost). If possible this loss of prestige should also be linked to the quality of the oposition faced. There would be far more questions raised about the ability of Germany to be a GP if it was beated by Denmark than by Russia. This should also be true that a lower ranked nation should gain more prestige by handing it to a higher ranked nation or GP than if it beats an Unciv for example. I accept that this would raise difficulties when you have alliance in operation so may not be practical.

8) Prevent alliance leaders from White Peacing over others or punish them for doing so.

This would make for interesting situations and a far higher likelihood of interesting longer wars. Preferrably an alliance leader should not be able to ahite peace out over another persons war aim. Preferrably when peace is settled the peace should include all war aims of all combatants, but at the minimum force the alliance leader to carry a huge prestige penalty for negotiating a white peace and ensure that the rest of the alliance loses a much lower prestige amount (perhaps with the balance collected by the leader).

9) Generally rebalance the prestige gains.

You should not gain as much prestige from someone writing a book or composing something as you should from winning a war. If prestige is about the influence you have on the world there should be lesss significant gains from some culture techs and events than there are at present.

If anyone makes it this far through my thoughts I would appreciate comments on how successful people think these changes might be and if they would be implementable.
 
1) Fine for a mod, but you'd probably have to wait for Paradox to speed up the game elsewhere if you are expecting this in a official patch

2) One of the things I've been advocating, I think this would go to great lenghts in limiting the use of colonial troops.

3) The issue is not industry in non-core provinces, the issue is colonial provinces becoming states with unrealistic ease. Make the criteria tougher (e.g. require cores in every province) would address this better IMHO.

4) Guards units can already only be built from accepted or primary culture. Your example is kind of wierd though AFAIK since the British Empire did make extensive use of Indian and other colonial troops, while Arabs were not part of the Empire and instead were being armed to fight insurgencies against the Ottomans.

5) This would hugely trivialise industrial score. How were you expecting this to work? At the moment industrial score is roughly on the same magnitude as prestige and military score; dividing by 20 would mean you'd be running with fractions for industry score for decades even with a major country. That just destroys the point and fun of building an industrial economy.

6) Military score is already linked to technology, and IMHO it shouldn't be tied to active brigades. There should be more disincentive against fielding those massive and unrealistic field armies, not more encouragement to build brigades for a higher score. Besides, massive numbers of units is already causing performance problems; you're going to encourage rich industrial nations to build even more of those?

9) I think Prestige is supposed to be about your nation's achievements, cultural or otherwise.
 
1. Disagree. Slowing down yes, but not eliminating totally. Mostly the assimilations are not half as a bad as the imigration...

2. Disagree again. But reduce the chance for colonies (and I really want to reduce the chance of a colony becomming a state).

3. So if Germany conquers Flanderen, you wouldn't be able to expand the industry there? That is just silly...

4. This is allready in. Non-accepted can not become Guards.
(edit: The non-core areas require 4000, rather than 1000 for the first regiment. Mixed these up at first posting)

5. Disagree. The amount of industry in former colonies need to go down, but that is better to do by not allowing them to become states.

6. Read the thread about the millitary score. Tech is involved, and ships are also added (depending on type). There are some strangness there, though...

7. Would love for the humiliate to be a percentage of the total prestige...

8. No. Seems what you really want is a way to refuse to agree to a peace that a warleader agrees to... And why should white peace be any different from agreeing to any condition the warleader cares for?
But if you have a wargoal you really want, then don't drag in someone more powerful.

9. I would like the late game prestige gains to be higher (to balance against industry and millitary), but that would probably be best done by increasing the prestige gain techs/inventions. You allready get enough from wars. (both from battles and wining the war)
 
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4. This is allready in. Non-accepted can not become Guards, and require 4000, rather than 1000 for the first regiment.
Actually non-accepted provides brigades just as fast as accepted. It's the status of the province that affects how many you require for the second regiment, I think it's 12000 in a non core province.
 
Another thread by a player pushing up his interests at the expense of others'.

I find it strange though despite the game offering different gameplay experiences, some players would prefer a rather monolithic gameplay.

When players do not like fast assimilation, they could still play a slow assimilating nation. But huh, no.
 
1) Stop assimilation completely except for people immigrating into a country.

Why? It is historical, just the rate that is too high.

I am not sure that the idea of assimilation is that realistic. For example - Indians who choose to live in India are not going to turn British in a few years so stop assimilation in colonies completely;

Yeah, Indians would never speak English and play Cricket :p

By 1936, a good chunk of the Indian middle and upper classes should be British-cultured. Again, it's not the assimilation that is the problem, but it's rate.

2) Prevent the gain of core provinces that are not connected to your homeland or at least in the same continent as you.

I disagree. Countries that have territories on more than one continent be integral parts of it should be possible.

Possibly not realistic but I am not so sure. Playing as Germany I should not have been able to turn most of Africa and Arabia into German core territory, I rather think the locals might have objected.

If Germany holds most of Africa and Arabia for decades, and most of the population has become German-cultured, then yes, it should become core territory.

3) Prevent industry being constructed in non-core provinces.

Disagreed. If Germany conquers parts of Belgium or the Netherlands, there is no reason for it to not be able to build industry there. Cores are, furthermore just "legitimate claims" on territory.



The problem is that your suggestions seem to be aimed at solving a particular issue's effects (too many factories in non-European areas), instead of addressing the root problem - that colonies can become states too easily.
 
5) This would hugely trivialise industrial score. How were you expecting this to work? At the moment industrial score is roughly on the same magnitude as prestige and military score; dividing by 20 would mean you'd be running with fractions for industry score for decades even with a major country. That just destroys the point and fun of building an industrial economy.
QUOTE]

I accept many of the points you make and that there are better fixes than the ones I have thought of. A limitation of my understanding of the game mechanics. This one I do disagree with though. Industrial might alone should not be enough to make you a great power. Being a great power is about projection of power and influence in the world and the primary role I see indusrty having in that is to allow you your military etc. I also disagree that industry is on a par with prestige and military. I will fish out some figures when I next load up the game but in the game I am currently playing none of the top 6 GPs could be removed even if they had zero prestige and military scores and everyone of them has an industry score at least a power of ten greater than military and double their prestige. I don't see that being on a par. Perhaps 5% is too much but the score needs to come down to have any realistic allowance of removing a GP status. Even if you have a mighty industry what does that matter of your ability to influence events on the far side of the world if everytime you go to war with your neighbours you get humiliated after they occupy your capital? (Again and again).
 
Why? It is historical, just the rate that is too high.

Yeah, Indians would never speak English and play Cricket :p

By 1936, a good chunk of the Indian middle and upper classes should be British-cultured. Again, it's not the assimilation that is the problem, but it's rate.

The problem is that your suggestions seem to be aimed at solving a particular issue's effects (too many factories in non-European areas), instead of addressing the root problem - that colonies can become states too easily.

OK to the first point but I suppose it depends on what you view as culture in the game. I (perhaps incorrectly) view it as being a pops primary alleigance and fine the Indians play cricket etc etc but the pops in India would still view themsleves as Indian surely? Ok granted the answer is extreme but part of that went (again possibly incorrectly) to trying to address game speed, as if you cut down on the calculations performed surely the game would go quicker?

I take the second point entirely, I'm not sure that I fully understand the mechanics of this but I do hope to see a fix to the problem of oversized oversees industry and my suggestions were an attempt to see a solution that did not involve too much assimilation which seems to be blamed for game speed issues.
 
I accept many of the points you make and that there are better fixes than the ones I have thought of. A limitation of my understanding of the game mechanics. This one I do disagree with though. Industrial might alone should not be enough to make you a great power. Being a great power is about projection of power and influence in the world and the primary role I see indusrty having in that is to allow you your military etc. I also disagree that industry is on a par with prestige and military. I will fish out some figures when I next load up the game but in the game I am currently playing none of the top 6 GPs could be removed even if they had zero prestige and military scores and everyone of them has an industry score at least a power of ten greater than military and double their prestige. I don't see that being on a par. Perhaps 5% is too much but the score needs to come down to have any realistic allowance of removing a GP status. Even if you have a mighty industry what does that matter of your ability to influence events on the far side of the world if everytime you go to war with your neighbours you get humiliated after they occupy your capital? (Again and again).

To get that industry, you need to have a high prestige (or be the UK - with it's huge dominions).
And a high industrial power represents an economic power - if the UK refuses to sell to you, it becomes hard to find goods to buy...

What would perhaps have been better is if industrial workers would also be prevented from working if a state is occupied. (like miners and farmers)
 
Another thread by a player pushing up his interests at the expense of others'.

I find it strange though despite the game offering different gameplay experiences, some players would prefer a rather monolithic gameplay.

When players do not like fast assimilation, they could still play a slow assimilating nation. But huh, no.

Bit harsh. I am merely trying to get a handle on some of the possible solutions to problems I have had and some thoughts from people who understand the game mechanics better than I do. The issues I have seen are obviously going to be biased towards those that have come out of my games, rather than yours. This is not an attempt to marginalise anyone elses game style.

Could you possibly clarify what you mean by "monolithic gameplay"?
 
What would perhaps have been better is if industrial workers would also be prevented from working if a state is occupied. (like miners and farmers)

Agreed this would be far better and has been pointed out on other threads. I see your other point, I just have reservations that industry alone should not be enough to make you a GP. It should be a contributing factor certainly but there needs to be a way to reduce it. possibly the ability to damage industry in occupied areas cauing longer term damage to a nation's indurtial power. This would prevent the country from merely being able to get back up to it's former level as soon as war is finished.
 
I accept many of the points you make and that there are better fixes than the ones I have thought of. A limitation of my understanding of the game mechanics. This one I do disagree with though. Industrial might alone should not be enough to make you a great power. Being a great power is about projection of power and influence in the world and the primary role I see indusrty having in that is to allow you your military etc. I also disagree that industry is on a par with prestige and military. I will fish out some figures when I next load up the game but in the game I am currently playing none of the top 6 GPs could be removed even if they had zero prestige and military scores and everyone of them has an industry score at least a power of ten greater than military and double their prestige. I don't see that being on a par. Perhaps 5% is too much but the score needs to come down to have any realistic allowance of removing a GP status. Even if you have a mighty industry what does that matter of your ability to influence events on the far side of the world if everytime you go to war with your neighbours you get humiliated after they occupy your capital? (Again and again).

To be clear I'm not disagreeing with the importance of military and prestige. But the situation you describe would probably be fairly mid-late game, right? Industrial score do rise dramatically after a nation have been industrialising for a while - it's sort of an exponential growth, I suppose. My point was that it starts off low and at first increases slowly so that for the most part it is actually on par with prestige and military score. It is only the GPs that the exponential growth shows and leaves the other two in the dust. Which means that dividing it by 20 would mean an industrial score of almost nothing in the first couple of decades even for the great powers, and certainly for any secondary power and below for a majority of the game.

The problem is that prestige and military score gain doesn't keep up with industrial score, or that industrial score growth accelerates too fast. Dividing the current score by a factor isn't really going to help. Although I don't think we've got a model of how industrial score is calculated; perhaps it could be scaled to avoid the kind of runaway growth that happens at the superpower end of the spectrum.

after a while, sort of like an exponential curve, but it starts off low. The problem is not that industrial score is too large, it's that it increases too much faster than prestige and military score.

but for the majority of lesser powers they remain on the

during the first few decades of industrialisation. The root of the problem is that industrial score starts low and increases slowly but the rate of increase accelerates dramatically.
 
Agreed this would be far better and has been pointed out on other threads. I see your other point, I just have reservations that industry alone should not be enough to make you a GP. It should be a contributing factor certainly but there needs to be a way to reduce it. possibly the ability to damage industry in occupied areas cauing longer term damage to a nation's indurtial power. This would prevent the country from merely being able to get back up to it's former level as soon as war is finished.

Hmm - if the entire state is occupied, all factories close. (which would reduce them to lvl 1, and under laizer-faire reduce the number of factories to 2).
 
OK to the first point but I suppose it depends on what you view as culture in the game. I (perhaps incorrectly) view it as being a pops primary alleigance and fine the Indians play cricket etc etc but the pops in India would still view themsleves as Indian surely?
Viewing themselves as ethnic Indians is not incompatible with being British cultured. It just means that they're living a British lifestyle and speaks English while being Indians. The game doesn't have a mechanism for reresenting British Indians so, since British is the ruling culture, it's pretty reasonable to express that as just British.

Ok granted the answer is extreme but part of that went (again possibly incorrectly) to trying to address game speed, as if you cut down on the calculations performed surely the game would go quicker?
Assimilation helps game speed by reducing the number of POPs and hence the number of POP-related calculations that needs to be done. Eliminating assimilation isn't going to help the game go faster.

To be honest I'm starting to think that people who complain about assimilation is actually just seeing the out of control migration of primary culture POPs to the colonies, and mistaking that with with native colonial POPs getting assimilated.
 
To be clear I'm not disagreeing with the importance of military and prestige. But the situation you describe would probably be fairly mid-late game, right? Industrial score do rise dramatically after a nation have been industrialising for a while - it's sort of an exponential growth, I suppose. My point was that it starts off low and at first increases slowly so that for the most part it is actually on par with prestige and military score. It is only the GPs that the exponential growth shows and leaves the other two in the dust. Which means that dividing it by 20 would mean an industrial score of almost nothing in the first couple of decades even for the great powers, and certainly for any secondary power and below for a majority of the game.

The problem is that prestige and military score gain doesn't keep up with industrial score, or that industrial score growth accelerates too fast. Dividing the current score by a factor isn't really going to help. Although I don't think we've got a model of how industrial score is calculated; perhaps it could be scaled to avoid the kind of runaway growth that happens at the superpower end of the spectrum.

after a while, sort of like an exponential curve, but it starts off low. The problem is not that industrial score is too large, it's that it increases too much faster than prestige and military score.

but for the majority of lesser powers they remain on the

during the first few decades of industrialisation. The root of the problem is that industrial score starts low and increases slowly but the rate of increase accelerates dramatically.

I am talking about the mid to late game and the way you explain that I can see why a flat reduction wouldn't work. Perhaps a growth of other factors might work, I just don't see it being right that industry dominates so compeltely, or at least in the games I have had. Clearly there is no easy fix, which I suppose is why one hasn't been implmeneted!
 
Assimilation helps game speed by reducing the number of POPs and hence the number of POP-related calculations that needs to be done. Eliminating assimilation isn't going to help the game go faster.

To be honest I'm starting to think that people who complain about assimilation is actually just seeing the out of control migration of primary culture POPs to the colonies, and mistaking that with with native colonial POPs getting assimilated.

1) OK, my misunderstanding, I thought that it would help.

2) This could well be it. I will pay closer attention in my next game to see what happens. Is there an easy way to change this in the game files to see if it makes any difference?
 
Hmm - if the entire state is occupied, all factories close. (which would reduce them to lvl 1, and under laizer-faire reduce the number of factories to 2).

If this is the case then why, no matter how many times I completely occupied France in my last game was there no real effect on their industry score?
 
OK to the first point but I suppose it depends on what you view as culture in the game. I (perhaps incorrectly) view it as being a pops primary alleigance and fine the Indians play cricket etc etc but the pops in India would still view themsleves as Indian surely?

Surely, but my point was that they have taken elements of the British culture to significant degree, and thus assimilation to British culture is a definite possibility. I agree that it is too easy at the moment to assimilate them, but stopping assimilation altogether would be unrealistic as well.

Ok granted the answer is extreme but part of that went (again possibly incorrectly) to trying to address game speed, as if you cut down on the calculations performed surely the game would go quicker?

Well, the higher assimilation is there to diminish late game perfomance troubles. AFAIK the references to it actually making performance worse are related to the higher number of units (because of the higher number of national culture soldiers), not to POPs having to calculate assimilation. But while we are at it, suppose that moving assimilation calculations to the end of the month instead of being per-day would help improve the game's performance.

I take the second point entirely, I'm not sure that I fully understand the mechanics of this but I do hope to see a fix to the problem of oversized oversees industry and my suggestions were an attempt to see a solution that did not involve too much assimilation which seems to be blamed for game speed issues.

For instance, if I as Great Britain decide to make Australia an integral part of Great Britain, with voting rights and etc., it is reasonable for me to be able to build factories there. That's why I think the issue is mainly of it being too easy to make colonies into states - and there being no major drawbacks in doing so either.
 
Bit harsh. I am merely trying to get a handle on some of the possible solutions to problems I have had and some thoughts from people who understand the game mechanics better than I do. The issues I have seen are obviously going to be biased towards those that have come out of my games, rather than yours. This is not an attempt to marginalise anyone elses game style.

Could you possibly clarify what you mean by "monolithic gameplay"?

Bit harsh. I am merely trying to get a handle on some of the possible solutions to problems I have had and some thoughts from people who understand the game mechanics better than I do. The issues I have seen are obviously going to be biased towards those that have come out of my games, rather than yours. This is not an attempt to marginalise anyone elses game style.

Could you possibly clarify what you mean by "monolithic gameplay"?

Introducing 'solutions' is destined to fail then. Only the developpers have the insight to tackle the issues (if they are issues) evenly.

The beef over assimilation is definitively biased as some countries in the game are slow to assimilate. Some countries can assimilate fast, others cant. So the path to a monolithic gameplay as most complains come from players who keep playing the same set of countries.

No industry on non core states? Nice on any country starting with very few cores. You can gain them but if you add to that a low first culture POP, one NF and that is done.


Etc... I cant see the benefit of coming out with general solutions when the scope of play is so limited.
 
Surely, but my point was that they have taken elements of the British culture to significant degree, and thus assimilation to British culture is a definite possibility. I agree that it is too easy at the moment to assimilate them, but stopping assimilation altogether would be unrealistic as well.
Well, the higher assimilation is there to diminish late game perfomance troubles. AFAIK the references to it actually making performance worse are related to the higher number of units (because of the higher number of national culture soldiers), not to POPs having to calculate assimilation. But while we are at it, suppose that moving assimilation calculations to the end of the month instead of being per-day would help improve the game's performance.
For instance, if I as Great Britain decide to make Australia an integral part of Great Britain, with voting rights and etc., it is reasonable for me to be able to build factories there. That's why I think the issue is mainly of it being too easy to make colonies into states - and there being no major drawbacks in doing so either.

Thank you. This has made a number of things clearer for me.