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The UK's million man army issue/ fast assimilation

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Kiithis

Kiithis

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Jan 3, 2008
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Has Paradox made any comment on the problem?

We are the Borg.. er... British. Lower your Shields and prepare to be assimilated. We will add your technological and biological distinctiveness to our own. I say, resistance is ratha futile ole boy!
 
Kiithis said:
Has Paradox made any comment on the problem?

We are the Borg.. er... British. Lower your Shields and prepare to be assimilated. We will add your technological and biological distinctiveness to our own. I say, resistance is ratha futile ole boy!
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It's linked in the Developers' Comments thread: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?494248-Better-POP-assimilation&p=11535159
There is no way to do that at this time. It picks which ever of your primary or accepted cultures are present in the province in the largest numbers and assimilated to that. This does create oddities like British POPs assimilating to Afro-American, ont he other hand it does mean that immigrants to the South become Dixie instead of seeing a majority Yankee population by 1860, which was known to happen in Victoria.

If we go back to the idea of defining cultures for provinces. This was considered during development. We felt it would be a cool way to do things like create a distinct Austrialian culture by having POPs that move there seek to assimilate to that culture. However, it was rejected on perfromance grounds because it would add yet more CPU work to the assimilation logic. On top of that it would add yet more memory requirements to the province database. Now there will be those that argue that this would pretty minor in the grand scheme of things and this is probably true. Still we were determined to avoid feature creep. Once you add one small thing, then another and then another you end up with a huge perfromance overhead.

I do understand your problem and yes I know the game would feel better if we did do something about it. My prefered solution at this time is to see if I can beg some programming time to investigate further optimisations and then see if the assimilate rate can then be toned down and still keep up a reasonable level of perfromance.
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fletcherreed said:
Well the fanboi response is that fast assimilation gives better late game performance and is WAD but I'm hoping the official response is a little more polished...
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Don't insult other forum members.
 
Assimilation rates has been confirmed to be ahistorically high for late game performance purposes and WAD. You can debate whether or not this works and if there are better ways to do it, but you don't need to denigrate people for quoting to you what the developers said. Just because you don't know that something is WAD doesn't mean that people telling you it's been confirmed to be WAD is making a "fanboi response".

EDIT: oops, posted too slowly.
 
There has to be some sort of solution to this beyond just assimilating the hell out of pops. That's just silly. If pops assimilate after about 20 years, why do we have pops of different cultures at all then?
 
NoClass said:
If pops assimilate after about 20 years, why do we have pops of different cultures at all then?
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Read this carefully.​
 
Because POPs don't all assimilate after just 20 years? I don't know about you but I at least have not see that happen in any of my games. The latest save game I have was a Germany save in 1893, and after almost 60 years and every province in British India still has at least 50-60% native culture. A handful even have as high as 80%. The state of Bohemia still has 30% Czech culture - pathetically little, to be sure, but still there after I conquered the state from Austria in 1841.
 
rmdsc said:
Because POPs don't all assimilate after just 20 years? I don't know about you but I at least have not see that happen in any of my games. The latest save game I have was a Germany save in 1893, and after almost 60 years and every province in British India still has at least 50-60% native culture. A handful even have as high as 80%. The state of Bohemia still has 30% Czech culture - pathetically little, to be sure, but still there after I conquered the state from Austria in 1841.
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Okay, complete assimilation after 20 years is an exaggeration, but only for the largest cultures present in a nation.

I wonder, did culturally British people ever make up 20% of the populace in any Indian provence? To be sure, "culture" is used in this game to describe people who accept and are accepted by a particular culture, not people of a particular ethnicity. But that's still ridiculous.

Moreover, even if there is some way to nerf assimilation, it's still waaaay to easy to do too many things with minority pops, especially in colonial provinces. Simply put, the UK shouldn't be able to industrialize India, which should have a huge amount of people with a foreign culture, and the people of that country shouln't be able to form the bulk of the UK army.

Now a shameless plug for my own idea. Link
 
NoClass said:
Moreover, even if there is some way to nerf assimilation, it's still waaaay to easy to do too many things with minority pops, especially in colonial provinces. Simply put, the UK shouldn't be able to industrialize India, which should have a huge amount of people with a foreign culture, and the people of that country shouln't be able to form the bulk of the UK army.
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This is why I've always said that assimilation isn't the problem. The real problems are that the cores can be gained in overseas territories, and that colonies can be turned into full states too easily. Cores allow much more brigades to be raised from the same size of soldier POPs, which means that colonial empires can raise huge armies consisting of non-primary culture troops by virtue of their possession of highly populous territories (e.g. India). Assimilation doesn't really come into this except as an event MTTH modifier - the culture of the soldier POP would only determine whether it gets raised as Guards or plain infantry.

And it shouldn't be possible to convert colonies into full states at will. The typical colonies was never administered as integral parts of the colonising power. I think at least the nation should be required to have cores on every province before it can convert the colony. That way the US can grant statehood to western territories but UK can't industrialise India. Or better an integration National Focus, which can be used to integrate a territory into the nation. It could do something like encourage core gains, and enable a event with a high MTTH to eventually turn the colony into a proper state.
 
rmdsc, I don't understand what you say about core. It doesn't allow more troops. It's accepted culture that give more troops than non-accepted one.

IMO,assimilation should work the same way as in the real world : a part of the new generation feel the country is home, the old one doesn't assimilate. Problem is that POP don't die so we can't simulate this.

And about the fact that after 20 years there are still some culture it's because assimilation is still a bit broken : a POP can't assimilate if there isn't a pop of an accepted culture in the province. Moreover, if an accepted culture migrate to the province, there is a chance that it assimilate into the non accepted culture... We are a bit lucky that this is brocken, otherwise we would end up with very few culture in 1860.
 
Zarine said:
rmdsc, I don't understand what you say about core. It doesn't allow more troops. It's accepted culture that give more troops than non-accepted one.
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That's not what I've observed. Accepted and non-accepted cultures gives the same number of brigades, but non-core provinces allow you to raise less of them.

You don't have to take my word for it, start a game as Austria and see for yourself. 3750 Czech soldiers in Prague raises exactly two Czech brigades. 3350 North Italian soldiers in Milan raises one North Italian brigade. Austria have a core on Prague but not on Milan. Neither Czech nor North Italian are accepted cultures in Austria.
 
You can also check defines:
POP_MIN_SIZE_FOR_REGIMENT_NONCORE_MULTIPLIER = 4, -- VALUE * POP_MIN_SIZE_FOR_REGIMENT is min for noncores
pops in non-cores need to be 4 times larger to support the same number of troops.
 
Oh strange... My bad, When I checked it must have been neither accepted culture nor core.

But I think, if assimilation was "fixed", that having less brigade from non-accepted culture would be great as well. Why would german in Alsace-Lorraine fight for France in large number ?
 
I think, if assimilation can't be toned down alltogether for performance reasons, there are two solutions. Either keep the high assimilation rate, but only on small POPs. That means that the game won't be cluttered by a lot of small POPs who all need their own database entry and promotion/assimilation logics and so on, but we won't see large-scale assimilation of large POPs in, for instance, India.

Or, since high assimilation mainly causes problems with the UK (and in a much smaller extent makes other large multi-cultural empires like Austria ahistorically strong), make British India a satellite in order to prevent industrialization and huge soldier numbers from there, which is what the V1 mod VIP did.
 
This might sound crazy : if assimilation is thisway because of performance that get pretty bad in late game, would it be possible to have an option to switch between the one we have now and a "perfect" assimilation that work great but create performance problem ?
 
Darkrenown said:
You can also check defines:
POP_MIN_SIZE_FOR_REGIMENT_NONCORE_MULTIPLIER = 4, -- VALUE * POP_MIN_SIZE_FOR_REGIMENT is min for noncores
pops in non-cores need to be 4 times larger to support the same number of troops.
Click to expand...
I have increased this to 8 in my game... doesn't entirely calm the uk, but it makes the problem alot less. Cashed in the resulting lag 'savings' from reduced army sizes to reduce assimilation...
 
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