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ZechsMerquise73

ZechsMerquise73

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Sep 3, 2009
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I don't really like the system of "die without an heir of your last name, and its game over". Or that your dynasty in CK 1 was locked into the player character's main title. I'd like to see things where the player character dies, game switches to their second cousins in Norway, and you play from there.

Who wants to reload every time their character dies without an heir? What if you reload, switch over to a different country, and then all of a sudden that old characters gets an heir? Then you save and reload. Very annoying.

One time my ruler died "without an heir", and my game ended. I reload, and find out that the title past to the old player character's distant cousin of the same last name and really the same dynasty. The first character I selected's brother had a large dynasty of his own, one which the game did not tag as the same dynasty, apparently because their father had died before the game began. I'd like to see that fixed.

In the same game, an illegitimate child was not picked as heir, and thus the game ended. Yet, his line kept expanding for many decades. This is an example of how the game follows titles rather than characters.

I'd like to see some times when your heir doesn't manage to claim your old titles, and so you basically live in exile.

Just some random thoughts on the issue
 
ZechsMerquise73 said:
I don't really like the system of "die without an heir of your last name, and its game over". Or that your dynasty in CK 1 was locked into the player character's main title. I'd like to see things where the player character dies, game switches to their second cousins in Norway, and you play from there.

Who wants to reload every time their character dies without an heir? What if you reload, switch over to a different country, and then all of a sudden that old characters gets an heir? Then you save and reload. Very annoying.

One time my ruler died "without an heir", and my game ended. I reload, and find out that the title past to the old player character's distant cousin of the same last name and really the same dynasty. The first character I selected's brother had a large dynasty of his own, one which the game did not tag as the same dynasty, apparently because their father had died before the game began. I'd like to see that fixed.

In the same game, an illegitimate child was not picked as heir, and thus the game ended. Yet, his line kept expanding for many decades. This is an example of how the game follows titles rather than characters.

I'd like to see some times when your heir doesn't manage to claim your old titles, and so you basically live in exile.

Just some random thoughts on the issue
Click to expand...

I like game over when you lose an heir, but those are some interesting ideas.
 
ZechsMerquise73 said:
I don't really like the system of "die without an heir of your last name, and its game over". Or that your dynasty in CK 1 was locked into the player character's main title. I'd like to see things where the player character dies, game switches to their second cousins in Norway, and you play from there.

Who wants to reload every time their character dies without an heir? What if you reload, switch over to a different country, and then all of a sudden that old characters gets an heir? Then you save and reload. Very annoying.

One time my ruler died "without an heir", and my game ended. I reload, and find out that the title past to the old player character's distant cousin of the same last name and really the same dynasty. The first character I selected's brother had a large dynasty of his own, one which the game did not tag as the same dynasty, apparently because their father had died before the game began. I'd like to see that fixed.

In the same game, an illegitimate child was not picked as heir, and thus the game ended. Yet, his line kept expanding for many decades. This is an example of how the game follows titles rather than characters.

I'd like to see some times when your heir doesn't manage to claim your old titles, and so you basically live in exile.

Just some random thoughts on the issue
Click to expand...

In CK1, you could just switch to Salic law, and you would never be Game-over due to lack of heirs :)

Though I don't mind end game when the family dies out too much. Producing an heir should be important.
 
I very rarely had a CK-I game end because of a lack of a heir from the same dynasty. The greatest risk is of course at the start of the game where many in game dynasties consist of just one or if lucky 2-3 males. But if you lose that early you can easily start over. So I don't think there need be a change in this respect for CK-II...
 
I think an interesting case, could be to allow direct adoption of a friend inside the court, that is both feasible, and historical. This have happened several time sin history. This was nicely handled in Rome Total War. There should also be an opportunity for female rulers, like Empress Mathilda, in rare circumstances. I find the present "dying without an heir" as a very monomanic way to handle the issue, and could be handled nicely with occasional female rulers and court adoptions without any real problem (maybe an adoption or female ruler would incur a massive prestige penalty, as it would in real life, as with bastard sons).
 
The way I read the original post is that while his character's line ended the dynasty (same last name) didn't. Depending on which inheritance law it should be possible for these distant relatives to at least inherit the original starting county (or duchy and even kingdom) and the other titles depending on how the line of the deceased former ruler got them.
 
TempestDK said:
In CK1, you could just switch to Salic law, and you would never be Game-over due to lack of heirs :)

Though I don't mind end game when the family dies out too much. Producing an heir should be important.
Click to expand...

I agree, a part of the fun is doing whatever it takes to get an heir. It reminds me of Henry VIII's problem.
 
LordofSaxony said:
I agree, a part of the fun is doing whatever it takes to get an heir. It reminds me of Henry VIII's problem.
Click to expand...

I also agree and admit, until I hadn't learned mentioned "switch to Salic law"-trick, my games were full of pleasant anxiety that I now miss.
 
ssj18vegeta said:
hmm did this really happen a lot in medieval times? I thought it was more of a Roman thing.
Click to expand...

Happened.
Friedrich adopted Mátyás Hunyadi for example (Mathias Corvinus), Sulaiman adopted János Zsigmond, Maximilian adopted Louis the son of Ladislaus of Bohemia and Hungary...




What would be also important is when your main character dies without a proper heir BUT there is someone ruling as your dynasty, you should be able to continue.
Like once I left a branch of the Csák family in Armenia minor, they later became byzantine vassals. When my main character died I had to load up as them, because the game was game over. (even though they were the same family - same dynasty tag - and holding land)
 
I think that if a Count or a Duke dies without heirs his titles and lands should be reverted to the Crown and the King has the option to create a family member or a courtier Count or Duke (aka second creation)... Now if the King dies heirless we could have a Regency Council composed by the Dukes of the Realm and they would elect the new King either from their own ranks or discover some cadet line of the previous family... Of course this could lead to some very interesting events such as civil wars, assassinations etc. if one faction of the nobles supports one candidate and another faction supports someone else... Plus the Regency Council could have the option to invite a neighbouring King to arbitrate the decision like King Edward I (when invited by the Scottish Lords) did after Alexander III of Scotland died childess to arbitrate between the Bruce's and Baliol's claims to the Scottish throne...
 
Don_giorgio said:
I think that if a Count or a Duke dies without heirs his titles and lands should be reverted to the Crown and the King has the option to create a family member or a courtier Count or Duke (aka second creation)... Now if the King dies heirless we could have a Regency Council composed by the Dukes of the Realm and they would elect the new King either from their own ranks or discover some cadet line of the previous family... Of course this could lead to some very interesting events such as civil wars, assassinations etc. if one faction of the nobles supports one candidate and another faction supports someone else... Plus the Regency Council could have the option to invite a neighbouring King to arbitrate the decision like King Edward I (when invited by the Scottish Lords) did after Alexander III of Scotland died childess to arbitrate between the Bruce's and Baliol's claims to the Scottish throne...
Click to expand...

If you re-read DD #3, you will find that Doomdark says just that, that the king is heir to the young duke in the screenshot because he has no heirs (not sure what succession law is in effect). This was called escheat, which still exists in some jurisdictions. No more randomly generated heirs, which is good for lieges.

The problems you guys describe is why I think that I'm going with the most senior family member inherits rule in CK2, who can then redistribute titles as necessary.
 
It's a shame there's no Laws option to name your heir. I might not be remembering correctly, but I could have sworn that was done sometimes.
 
Furthermore some families not only had feudal holdings, but also allodial holdings; the latter is held independently from the king (although it may have started out as a gift of a distant predecessor of the current king) and should not return to the crown. For instance the counties of Leuven/Louvain and Brussels were allodial holdings of the dukes of Lotryk/Lothier ((remnant of) Lower Lotharingia), Brabant and (from 1288) Limburg.

However I'm not sure if this will be included in CK2.
 
Last edited:
Ruwaard said:
Furthermore some families not only had feudal holdings, but also allodial holdings; the latter is held independently from the king (although it may have started out as a gift of a distant predecessor of the current king) and should not return to the crown. For instance the counties of Leuven/Louvain and Brussels were allodial holdings of the dukes of Lotryk/Lothier ((remnant of) Lower Lotharingia), Brabant and (from 1288) Limburg.

However I'm not sure if this will be included in CK2.
Click to expand...

Probably not in vanilla. You would have to figure out a way to code it in, to keep some fiefs outside of your liege's sphere.
 
KristopherWG said:
It's a shame there's no Laws option to name your heir. I might not be remembering correctly, but I could have sworn that was done sometimes.
Click to expand...

This should be an option... at least for the Byzantines... In numerous occasions the reigning Emperor picked his own successor and made him co-Emperor and in some cases he wasnt the firstborn son as it was the case of Emperor John II who in his deathbed appointed his youngest son Manuel Emperor bypassing his elder son Isaacius...
 
Don_giorgio said:
This should be an option... at least for the Byzantines... In numerous occasions the reigning Emperor picked his own successor and made him co-Emperor and in some cases he wasnt the firstborn son as it was the case of Emperor John II who in his deathbed appointed his youngest son Manuel Emperor bypassing his elder son Isaacius...
Click to expand...

That was the Roman tradition, going back to Julius Caesar and Octavian, of adopting your heir and making his co-ruler. The Romans and later Byzantines with few exceptions did not follow primogeniture in determining who would become emperor. I would think some kind of "adoption" system would be necessary to play the Byzantines effectively. There were "dynasties" but not necessarily by people related closely by blood. (plus, foundlings could be introduced by event, in case of no heir or the death of a key heir--de facto, the heir apparent in feudal states was the oldest child of the wife of the king.)
 
Count of Reval said:
I also agree and admit, until I hadn't learned mentioned "switch to Salic law"-trick, my games were full of pleasant anxiety that I now miss.
Click to expand...

That's the problem, the anxiety shouldn't disappearing even under Salic law. That law basically ensured that they wouldn't be any game over.
 
RedRooster81 said:
That was the Roman tradition, going back to Julius Caesar and Octavian, of adopting your heir and making his co-ruler. The Romans and later Byzantines with few exceptions did not follow primogeniture in determining who would become emperor. I would think some kind of "adoption" system would be necessary to play the Byzantines effectively. There were "dynasties" but not necessarily by people related closely by blood. (plus, foundlings could be introduced by event, in case of no heir or the death of a key heir--de facto, the heir apparent in feudal states was the oldest child of the wife of the king.)
Click to expand...
This would also be good for the Japanese mod idea if you could adopt members from outside your dynasty (and give them your dynastical name). Although I guess for that I'd prefer it to be as a special edict to allow/disallow so it could work with different existing inheritance laws since according to Doomdark we won't be able to create our own custom inhertiance law.
 
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