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Thread: Let the ruling classes tremble – an Interactive Revolutionary AAR

  1. #4501
    Glad to see my vote was counted, thanks to everyone that helped make that happen.

    I think one clause should help ensure this does not happen in the future, a more explicit election procedure.

    Also I think plebiscites are a potential compromise on the nation issue, have states vote to accept the new constitution and join the reformed state.

  2. #4502
    Yes! Otto Wels and Anton Drexler joined forces to create a stable government! Nothing can stop us now!

    It is essential that we adopt the National Communist agenda about ending the perverse incentives towards regionalism on economic affairs. Towards this end we need to ensure the constitutional right to assembly. At the same time, we must ban all forms of financial influence on elections. Unions may be no more allowed to devote money to a political campaign then the capitalists can (and the capitalists of course can't). The national scope of the unions will protect us from factionalism.

    In order to prevent worker being turned against worker again, we need constitutional safeguards for the right to peaceful assembly. No law or action should be taken against such groups.

    In order to preserve the strength of our decisive leadership but protect against tyranny, the Central Committee once approved by the assembly should have veto power over the chairman. A vote of half the Central Committee will ban any action by the chairman. Only a vote by the general assembly can override this veto.
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  3. #4503
    Enewald Enewald's Avatar
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    Troika? Oh hell no!

    As for the consititution;

    It secures the rights of the citizens, protecting them from the state and from the party.
    The party is not the state, the party has been given the mandate for now to rules the state in the name of the people.
    The people have the right to remain above the state, influence the party and remain safe and secure.

    Freedom of press, freedom of expression, freedom of religion, no organized state campaigns against a religion, nationality nor assembly.
    Equality between all cultures and genders. Everyone is allowed the vote, and even the citizens of foreign countries should be protected by our fundamental rights of men.

    The state shall not seek to oppress the people, nor shall the party.
    The state shall seek to decentralize with time.

    The chairman should be chosen with a absolute majority, coalitions backing if needed.
    The chairman is the supreme commanders of the armed forces but does not have the right to pursue aggressive policy, nor seek wars.
    The state shall not go to war, unless two-thirds of the assembly are backing the aggressive foreign policy sought by the chairman and the government.

    The comintern needs to be consulted in case of a declaration of war against state not belonging to the comintern.
    If one member of the comintern is attacked, all members are obligated to respond in a mutual defence.

    The constitution can be amended if 90% of the assembly sees the benefits of it, otherwise it shall not be altered.
    One convener can veto the amendment, before or after the assembly votes over it, and pass the matter to the people. The referendum must achieve 2/3 backing for the alteration from the people.

    Powers shall be divided into three branches. Judges cannot be members of the party.
    The executive branch shall not be dominated by the party, seeking to fulfil the judgement of law, not the wishes of the party.
    The legislative powers remain with the assembly, the chairman and the conveners having the right to veto any proposal if they deem it unconstitutional or as an act against the well-being of the people.

    Army officers, as well as members belonging to the executive and judicial powers cannot be members of the party.
    There must be a gap between the state and the party. Both answer to the people, but do not dominate and do not have the complete powers.


    Anything I forgot?

    Yes, babies shall not be eaten.

  4. #4504
    Field Marshal Raph's Avatar
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    I think that it's very important that the constiution isn't political (in the sense of the term that corresponds to the spectrum of different opinions within the party and the factions) but rather legal in its nature. It should regulate the framework of the political functioning of the VSVR, but it should not regulate the political content. It should regulate the election procedures and the forming of government, the status of advisory and legislative bodies and elected positions (the nature and types of which should be decided by the following debates).

    I agree on Zimmerwald's proposition of a unitary state; until the revolution has progressed further both internally and internationally, we should not start moving on the path towards dissolution, and should be especially watchful against nationalism. Nationalist tendencies are, in my opinion, directly opposed to the future abolishment of the state, and leads towards re-establishment of the bourgeoise nationalist logic.

    The constitution should state some basic facts of the nature of the VSVR that don't encroach on the democratic freedom of the factions. It should establish the VSVR as a democracy and a socialist nation, and should prohibit the re-institution of capitalism or the abolishment of elections. It should include a clause about the goals of the VSVR as a movement state: the class-less and state-less society. It should not regulate which parts of society or economy that should be "state-controlled" since this is a matter of debate within the party and among the voters.

    EDIT, semi-reply to Enewald and those advocating a bill of rights: Religion or freedom of the press are other areas that should not be regulated by the constitution since those are a matter of political debate. Neither should it have a complex regulation of the roles of the party and the state. It should be a minimalist constitution in order to ensure the possibility for future evolution of the political system of the republic, rather than cementing a structure and forcing the moving state to stagnate. Basically, it should in a very simple matter state what the VSVR is, and it should regulate the governmental process in order to avoid deadlocks, and that's it.
    Last edited by Raph; 22-01-2011 at 11:03.
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  5. #4505
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    The State exist to lead the way to True Communism.
    Seeking Equality between all Men is the State first goal.
    All Discrimination against any nationality, gender or sexual tendency is a crime.
    All Men shall be judged by a jury of his peers.
    All Men are equal by nature and before the law.
    No man shall be put to Death.
    Dangerous men shall be imprisoned and reeducated, political dissenters* shall be banned.
    No political organisations except the State, the Soviets, the Unions and the Party shall exist.

    * Preeching capitalism, racism etc, not anarcho-kadonist
    Last edited by Zakharov; 22-01-2011 at 12:04.
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  6. #4506
    If you ban political dissenters who are evil, you will quickly find that everyone you don't agree with is evil.
    Economic theory: P → Q, P ∴ Q, QED
    Economic practice: P → Q ∴ {!P} = ∅, QED
    Economic research: P → Q ☡ ∴ Q, QED

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

  7. #4507
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    There really should be a clause allowing the dissolution of the State when the World Revolution is complete and the State no longer is necessary.

  8. #4508
    Corporal Zakharov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    If you ban political dissenters who are evil, you will quickly find that everyone you don't agree with is evil.
    So we should let capitalist, anti-semit and racist speak freely in our country ? We should not permit the reactionnary to gain any support in our revolution.
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  9. #4509
    Field Marshal yourworstnightm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zakharov View Post
    So we should let capitalist, anti-semit and racist speak freely in our country ? We should not permit the reactionnary to gain any support in our revolution.
    I don't think this is a question of law, but a question of discipline. People with ractionary views on religion, race and gender are obviously not Socialists and should be expelled from the Party.

  10. #4510
    Unrepentant Literal Democrat Tanzhang (譚張)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    If you ban political dissenters who are evil, you will quickly find that everyone you don't agree with is evil.
    Though I strongly believe counter-revolutionaries such as the True Germans have no place in the VSVR, this is worth remembering. Only factions which are obviously counter-revolutionary and push a counter-revolutionary agenda should be expelled.
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  11. #4511
    Who did the African states vote for?

    A unitary state is the only sensible way forward, as a federal system will force socialists to compete with one another for power and resources.

  12. #4512
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    The party is split into too many factions, making deadlock fairly easy to achieve. The current system relies on a chairman to break that deadlock, and is thus vulnerable to a tied vote for chairman. All the constitution needs is a tie break procedure that is sufficiently robust. The current one failed because the faction holding the balance between those tied in the chairmanship vote, was both internally deadlocked and was able to use the confusion to insert itself into the tie, despite having been decisively defeated in the party vote. This is a perversion of the will of the Party and must be prevented by the system of the new constitution.

    Statements in the preamble about the rights of men to be men, of women to bare arms, and of babies to be uneaten, are found in the constitutions of bourgeoise republics like the USA and have no place in our constitution.

    Soviets, Unions etc. are lesser bodies that can be created and regulated as the Chairman and Committee of the time see fit. They do not belong in a constitution. (unless they have a role such as appointing the Assembly). Similarly the Comintern does not require mention (unless it will have a role such as contributing to the People's Vote). The Workers are United and the Chairman decides how that shall be interpreted with regard to the Comintern.

    What is required is something like this.
    ...

    Constitution

    Preamble
    The People are One People and the Workers are United. There shall be One Party, and only One Party. There shall be one Chairman and no convenors. All else is an abomination against The People and Workers Unity. That the Chairman may better understand and implement the Will of The People and serve the greater cause of Worker's Unity, there shall be an Assembly to represent the People to the Chairman, and a Committee to aid the Chairman.

    1) The Chairman is elected by First Past The Post Party Vote.

    2) The People's Assembly is elected by Proportional Vote of The People.

    3) Ruling Committee posts are assigned to Assembly factions on a proportional basis by the Chairman.

    Note to clause 3) The exact method by which the Chairman decides what is proportional is deliberately left for the Chairman. This is because the Chairman is not to be forced to appoint a Committee that will veto every action the Chairman wishes to make. If the Party considers this power to have been abused then they vote for a different Chairman at the next election.

    4) The post of Speaker of the Assembly is given to the most senior non-Committee Assembly member of the faction with the largest popular vote. I

    Note to Clause 4) This is normally ceremonial as the Assembly's function is to advise and to provide members for the Committee. In the unlikely event of the People's Vote having a precise tie, clause 6 applies.

    5) The Speaker of the old Assembly has a casting vote in the vote for Chairman.

    Note to clause 5) The new Speaker not being decided until after the Chairman has been decided and the new Committee filled. Since the personality of the Speaker is well-known before the party votes, the outcome of a tie in the party vote is also predictable. Party members voting for a tie will in fact be voting for Speaker's choice and unable to deadlock the Republic by capricious last minute votes intended to prevent a decisive outcome.

    6) In the result of any other ties, the decision of the new Chairman is final.

    7) Only the leaders of the five largest factions in the previous assembly are eligible to stand for chairman (if the people's vote was tied then those equal are also allowed to stand).

    Note to clause 7) New factions must stand the test of time by waiting five years before being able to nominate their leader for Chairman. If new factions are formed by the breakup of an existing faction, all are considered new. This can normally only happen as a result of deadlock in an internal vote for faction leader. Otherwise the old leader leads the established faction, and the rest are splinter groups forming new factions.

    8) The Chairman decides the interpretation of the constitution unless vetoed by a majority of the Ruling Committee.

    9) The Constitution may be changed by the Ruling Committee. Unity is required. All must vote in favour of a proposal made by the Chairman.

  13. #4513
    Sergeant Vivern's Avatar

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    I mostly agree with the last Raphs post.
    I don’t see any mechanisms how citizens can influence political and local processes, looks like democracy ends with elections.
    Also, I think in constitution should be included some mechanisms how to guarantee independence of courts, from political powers and state influence.

  14. #4514
    We need to set a two term limit for the chairman.

  15. #4515
    Corporal Zakharov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by viola View Post
    We need to set a two term limit for the chairman.
    Sorry, but this is stupid. If something isn't broken, don't fix it. If someone is good, don't throw him away.
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  16. #4516
    Sergeant Vivern's Avatar

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    This is dilemma)
    We must wait until thing will be broken?)))

  17. #4517
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    Quoting myself:

    "What I propose to introduce is a Socialist Constitution of the Republic that would define what the Chairman can or cannot do, the socialist principles our republic was founded on, the powers of the assembly, a separation of powers (I would propose legislative, executive and judicial after the principles of Montesquieu), the democratic principles of election and lastly have written in it about the dissolution of the state, which I have no doubt that the Anarchists would fight for due to their fear of a permanent socialist state. This constitution can, of course, be changed with a majority of two-thirds in the assembly and the central committee. If neither is achieved the constitution can not be changed."

  18. #4518
    Corporal Zakharov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vivern View Post
    This is dilemma)
    We must wait until thing will be broken?)))
    This is not a dilemna, as we already had people who did big shit in their first terms. So if we fear that the third term of someone will be broken, we must fear too that the second one will be broken, and the first one too, so we don't elect anyone (that's anarchy, but not possible at the moment)
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  19. #4519
    El Presidente of Tropico & etc Ivir Baggins's Avatar
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    What we need to do is put aside our petty squabbles and unite behind the Marxist-Leninists, the only true perpetrators of social justice and worldwide liberation!
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  20. #4520
    Sergeant Vivern's Avatar

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    Zkharov

    Problem isn’t only with leader, but with people which would have to much believe in authority, power must rotate.

    Ivir Baggins

    I doubt that they can take power, they haven't enough support, their opponets also have influence.

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