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Thread: Let the ruling classes tremble – an Interactive Revolutionary AAR

  1. #3881
    Share Our Wealth! Seek75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zzzzz... View Post
    I do not believe that Trotsky wants to get rid of the opposition, comrades. The True Germans are Reactionaries that is mocking our Socialists republic. They deserve to be expelled!
    "The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all." -H. L. Mencken

    If the True Germans are so evil, if they are so blasphemous, if they are so irrevolutionary, would they really be a threat? Would the people not know what is right, what is true, and silence them with the power of their votes? Or are the people too dumb to take care of themselves? Are they too dumb to think for themselves, so the state must do it for them?

    The Marxists cry, Unity, Unity! We cannot be divided! Freedom of speech and freedom of thought divides us! And yet the very actions they claim are ment to bolster unity tear us in two. Are we not debating this very issue itself? Are we not suffering from two different opinions?
    Last edited by Seek75; 13-01-2011 at 23:48.
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  2. #3882
    Field Marshal Raph's Avatar
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    Communard: I never adressed you or your newspaper article, I adressed others who imply that it's somehow tyranny and dictatorship for the CC to disregard the advice of the advisory body that is the assembly, like, for instance, thekonkoe.

    Furthermore, I would like to point out that the Marxists-Leninists got by far the largest share of the votes for Chairman, as well as the largest share of the votes for the assembly; and that it was clear in the Marxist-Leninist election programme that the "true germans" would be expelled from the party; the "true germans", on the other hand, recieved a very small amount of the votes. This, however, might imply that the threat of the "true germans" were indeed overestimated, and that the expulsion might not have been nessecary. However, I don't think it would have served the Marxists-Leninists well to step down from such an important election promise after winning the election.

    Calling the party members and the people of the Republic "plebs" shows the true face of such an avid non-socialist as ZechsMarquise73.

    Moonstruck, if you believe that we will convert the ruling classes of the old empires through arguments and words, you do not know much of the nature of capitalism and class society. Our republic exists exactly because they've shown that that's not possible, and because we took action to free ourselves. The time has now come to finally break the backs of the empires of Europe, and then to help free the proletarians of the entire planet.
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  3. #3883
    Punster Dyranum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enewald View Post
    we need a damn constitution. Factions should not be banned nor discriminated. Free speech is sacred.
    No one wants tyranny!
    And here I was thinking all the time that you were pro-anarchist...
    This might just make me vote for the radical anarchists.

    @War
    By the way, how did you start the great war?
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  4. #3884
    Quote Originally Posted by Raph View Post
    Communard: I never adressed you or your newspaper article, I adressed others who imply that it's somehow tyranny and dictatorship for the CC to disregard the advice of the advisory body that is the assembly, like, for instance, thekonkoe.
    Ah, apologies then, I misread your intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raph View Post
    Furthermore, I would like to point out that the Marxists-Leninists got by far the largest share of the votes for Chairman, as well as the largest share of the votes for the assembly; and that it was clear in the Marxist-Leninist election programme that the "true germans" would be expelled from the party; the "true germans", on the other hand, recieved a very small amount of the votes. This, however, might imply that the threat of the "true germans" were indeed overestimated, and that the expulsion might not have been nessecary. However, I don't think it would have served the Marxists-Leninists well to step down from such an important election promise after winning the election.
    Well, I could point out that 58% of the Party and 71% of the people did not vote Marxist-Leninist. But that is beside the point. The point is that the expulsion of the True Germans, from a tactical, moral and political standpoint is wrong. And I personally believe that Liebknecht is not delivering on the platform he promised us. No bans on factions - gone. Chairman respecting the Assembly (this doesn't neccessarily mean following what it says) - gone. Non-adversarial politics - gone. Council communism - mortally wounded. I mean really, is there any part of Rosa Luxemburg's legacy that hasn't been betrayed by Trotsky, with Liebknecht acting as his cheerleader? If there is then I can't see it.
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  5. #3885
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    I'm afraid that the war may cause a lot of trouble for the republic. Even if we win, the great losses will give us understaffed industry and masses of wounded soldiers that can no longer work and has to live of pension. Thank Marx that the farms are collectivised or we'd all starve!

  6. #3886
    Communard: I never adressed you or your newspaper article, I adressed others who imply that it's somehow tyranny and dictatorship for the CC to disregard the advice of the advisory body that is the assembly, like, for instance, thekonkoe.
    I did not previously say he was a tyrant, though after some though I think he is. He is not breaking the law, I just think the decision was ill-conceived, ill-executed and badly timed. First Trotsky sought to expel a faction, an unprecedented act, without first attempting to drum up support, ill-concieved. Next he overrode opposition in the assembly and used only the weakest support in the CC to still force the decision through, ill-executed. Next he declared a war immediately in the aftermath after straining the unity of the government through his previous actions, badly timed.

    What is more, I agree with others that state that while not illegal in his actions he went against the spirit of the law. His endangerment of the republic is on par with other actions that sparked our civil wars, it is in fact not unreasonable to call his a tyrant. While he may follow the law he still disregards the will of the people and at best follows the will of about half the Party. That his actions are legal does not rule out them being tyrannical, it is simply a sign of a flaw in the system.

    EDIT:

    (( I realize after reading my last comment how it may have sounded, in fact I was out of character wondering if that may be outcome. Ignoring ideology altogether I think Trotsky is a political idiot. Lenin at least had the good sense to oppress the opposition with some skill and only when the time was right, Trotsky has started his term without first establishing himself by weakening consensus, and worse right before a war))

  7. #3887
    Quote Originally Posted by LeCare View Post
    It's normally not considered discrimination to discriminate discriminators (principles of logic I)
    Therefore, according to your own logic, discriminating against the True Germans is hardly discrimination because they are xenophobic, misogynist, hyper-nationalists. And yet you will defend them against discrimination over and over again...

    You're setting a double standard in which anything the M-L's do is somehow worse than the same action taken by others. It's a crime when the M-L's discriminate against the True Germans, but it's perfectly acceptable for other factions to discriminate against the M-L's.

  8. #3888
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Sometimes View Post
    I'm afraid that the war may cause a lot of trouble for the republic. Even if we win, the great losses will give us understaffed industry and masses of wounded soldiers that can no longer work and has to live of pension. Thank Marx that the farms are collectivised or we'd all starve!
    Well I suppose this does solve that little problem with over indusrializing. No workers, no industry

  9. #3889
    Quote Originally Posted by HatMan View Post
    Well I suppose this does solve that little problem with over indusrializing. No workers, no industry
    No workers, no customers...

    Maybe Trotsky hopes to create a perpetual state of war? That should nicely destroy the surplus of humanity without getting the working classes uppity.

    ((I hope that George Orwell is going to make an appearance in this AAR.))
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  10. #3890
    The Ancien Regimes fight for their own survival, and we must not underestimate their resolve. If we wait, they may rot and collapse under their own weight. Or the oppressed citizens may rise up and over throw them. Or they may fool their own people into believing WE are the enemy. Can we afford to let that happen? We must strike while the iron is hot. Pick off the weakened capitalist states while we can, reeducate and incorporate their people into the Comintern, and leave the stronger capitalist states without allies. The victory of communism is assured; I see no harm in helping it along. The ends justify the means.

  11. #3891
    Sergeant SwiftRosenthal's Avatar
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    It is good that we fight now, when we are finally strong enough, and not later. Every drop of blood spilled now in this revolutionary crusade against the capitalists replaces a drop of blood wasted in the capitalists' factories. We are in fact saving lives.

  12. #3892
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    Quote Originally Posted by keynes2.0 View Post
    No workers, no customers...

    Maybe Trotsky hopes to create a perpetual state of war? That should nicely destroy the surplus of humanity without getting the working classes uppity.

    ((I hope that George Orwell is going to make an appearance in this AAR.))
    ((Mmm... George Orwell... I most certainly approve. He would be a Democratic Socialist, wouldn't he? What faction would he be a part of?))

    This is a state that I have feared for a while, Comrade. I thought of it during Lenin's regime, and now perhaps Trotsky is moving toward it. We unfortunately under Lenin evolved a massive Military-Industrial complex where the arms industries gained massive economic power.

    Now that Trotsky has gained power, and even mobilized massive political "favors" to make me change my vote on expelling the True Germans, we are facing a new era. What I fear is that Trotsky will go the way Lenin did, the way that made me disillusioned with his rule, the way of censuring the people's will. As Comrade LeCare stated in his comment on the situation. "First they came for the True Germans... " I ask you comrades, who is next?

    I certainly hope that this situation of war will not be exploited by the Chairman of our Revolutionary Republic. War eases resistance to punish "Enemies of the Revolution" from the people, making them think that what is being done to their fellow citizens is a good thing, that limiting liberty is for the greater good. This is dangerous thought.

    I call for the assembly and the committee with me to not support any idea from our Chairman (or his faction) to limit the liberty of the people in the name of the greater good. Long live the revolution, liberty and socialism!

  13. #3893
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwiftRosenthal View Post
    It is good that we fight now, when we are finally strong enough, and not later. Every drop of blood spilled now in this revolutionary crusade against the capitalists replaces a drop of blood wasted in the capitalists' factories. We are in fact saving lives.
    This is typical Trotskyist argument. It sounds good until you actually count up the numbers and realise that tens of millions are dying to save a few thousands.

    It is not the capitalists that our workers are killing in their millions, Trotsky is leading us to slaughter the very same workers that the Troyskyists purport to be saving. They will not die in the capitalists' factories, because they have already fallen to the guns of those that pretend to be their comrades.

  14. #3894
    I wouldn't be suprised if the True Germans become an underground terrorist movement, led by Bismark and a Michael Collins type person.

  15. #3895
    Quote Originally Posted by Necazian View Post
    ((Mmm... George Orwell... I most certainly approve. He would be a Democratic Socialist, wouldn't he? What faction would he be a part of?))
    No fair, I already suggested him! You can't agree with Keynes unless you agree with me first

    Of course, I did say Eric Arthur Blair instead of his nom de plume. I also want W. H. Auden, Nikita Khrushchev, and Leonid Brezhnev. So don't forget to say how much you'd like to see them, too!

    Quote Originally Posted by Morrell8 View Post
    I wouldn't be suprised if the True Germans become an underground terrorist movement, led by Bismark and a Michael Collins type person.
    Call him Emmanuel Goldstein.

  16. #3896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necazian View Post
    I call for the assembly and the committee with me to not support any idea from our Chairman (or his faction) to limit the liberty of the people in the name of the greater good. Long live the revolution, liberty and socialism!
    Hear, hear!

    It was because of his domestic policies, such as his plans for the True Germans, that I didn't vote for Trotsky.
    On the other hand Liebknecht supported the purging too, so now I just feel cheated...

  17. #3897
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    @Tommy:

    You should call your allies once the british navy has been sunk to a reasonable level. They'll help you occupy the various bourgeois powers, and you could use their manpower. the CSR and Sweden should be particularly useful.
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  18. #3898
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    What is this criticism of our beloved Chairman? Isn't this time for unity, time for uniting behind our government to make sure the Working Classes are victorious in this Great Class War. The True Germans were an obstacle for the Revolution and had to be removed. Don't tell me you TOO are obstacles to the revolution.

  19. #3899
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelshDude View Post
    Very scary. Where did this "Enewald is a cannibal" thing come from anyway?
    I remember that, but didn't the rumour start before then.

    Re yourworstnightm - I have never supported this war (OOC:well, I do find war posts more interesting) and am not alone in thinking Trotsky has jumped the gun. The numbers say it all - 100-35 is a near insurmountable margin (OOC: in Vic II not so much due to AI incompetence but the point still stands). Not only that, but most of our manpower are conscripts who never chose to fight in this war. In Trotsky's manifesto while he did indeed preach immediate war with the Hapsburgs and France and if they proved successful with Russia and perhaps the UK and USA, he promised nothing on this scale.

  20. #3900
    Captain Mr. Sometimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WelshDude View Post
    I remember that, but didn't the rumour start before then.

    Re yourworstnightm - I have never supported this war (OOC:well, I do find war posts more interesting) and am not alone in thinking Trotsky has jumped the gun. The numbers say it all - 100-35 is a near insurmountable margin (OOC: in Vic II not so much due to AI incompetence but the point still stands). Not only that, but most of our manpower are conscripts who never chose to fight in this war. In Trotsky's manifesto while he did indeed preach immediate war with the Hapsburgs and France and if they proved successful with Russia and perhaps the UK and USA, he promised nothing on this scale.
    I'm pretty sure that the other reactionary forces felt threatened by the VSVR offensives and allied against us.

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