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... Well... ummmm...

Good luck?

Hah! Thanks! :D

Still, it's looking like Byzantium picked the perfect time to jump ship, and I doubt Elizabeth will be able to grab them back up, and that's if she's even able to get to the throne herself.

It did turn out to be excellent timing for them, yes. One really sucky thing I just thought of—if one does try to restore the union, the Greek army will have to be more or less destroyed. Which will then chum the water for the Ottomans, and possibly the Serbs, and the Bulgarians... and that would put me in a US-Iraq circa 2003 situation. After destroying their army and enforcing the PU, I would have to keep the army there for several years just to fend off predators (until they could build their own). French garrison + Greek garrison + ordinary Territorial Army sounds like a massive expenditure.

If the Lancastrians had a wise commander-in-chief, he probably would pull out from Gascogne from the time being, crush the Yorkists at home and let the Armagnac knights sit in the mud around Saintonge for a while.

Sure. But if I do that, someone else could leap in and occupy the Gascon territories, wasting my Reconquest CB. Or my allies could be complete dogs and peace out while I'm fighting the rebels, forcing me to go through the rigamarole of sending a mint to France in order to get military access for the siege and occupation of central Burgundy. Decisions, decisions...

Excellent update, mixing Robert Dudley and the chaos of the pre-War of the Roses days.

Thanks. In my mind's eye, this Gloucester is more of a Shakespearean Richard III than a Robert Dudley; he definitely would get rid of his wife in order to reach the goal.

Out of interest, what's the worst that can happen from a major Noble rebellion? It's only Pretenders that can cause an actual change of sovereign, isn't it?

In game terms, yes; only Pretenders can get you a new sovereign; Noble Rebels will just play havoc with certain sliders (aristocracy, centralisation, serfdom). But there are plenty of ways for an heir to meet an untimely end. :D

A wonderful, long and very well written update for us. I feel especially proud that you have taken so many hits 'for the team' in order to bring us a compelling AAR. Thank you, and good luck in future!

Heh, thanks. It was a fun period to play, even though I was tearing my hair out.

I feel that this rebellion looks worse than it actually is - the forces in Scotland are dispersed and weak, a single competent force could crush them all in a matter of months, and aside from that they have only a few armies, albeit stronger ones. The most important question is how much longer the war with Burgundy continues to tie up much-needed manpower, but that war promises some very valuable gains if you can press the advantage for a little longer.

That's a reasonable take, too. They aren't double-digits so they don't scare me that much; it's just a constraint in terms of "will dealing with them cost me one of my war goals?"
 
Hmm, if the noble armies stay spread out defeating them would be an easy but time consuming task. If they unite you can crush them all in a single move but it would recuire a substantially larger force and that could weaken your continental forces. Either way it´s gotta be annoying to be doing so well in a war (despite losing your king) and when victory is so close you can almost taste it you are betrayed on the homefront. Good luck
 
Actually, i would be rather interested in what would happen in York wins. Will he simply remain a Lord Regent, or ursurp the young Elizabeth?
 
Sure. But if I do that, someone else could leap in and occupy the Gascon territories, wasting my Reconquest CB. Or my allies could be complete dogs and peace out while I'm fighting the rebels, forcing me to go through the rigamarole of sending a mint to France in order to get military access for the siege and occupation of central Burgundy. Decisions, decisions...

The fact that you're still thinking in terms of not wasting the CB suggests you're not overly worried by the present turn of events. That said, the Regency Council is about as bad as it could be given the circumstances.

I'd echo the claim that the Byzantines have played their hand well. Supporting England's war in Gascony while rejecting the PU gives them a position to negotiate from and there will always be those who will look with relief on the removal of responsibility to defend the Greek lands.
 
This dark time in history certainly makes for a good story, but is playing the game frustrating? I wonder what Elizabeth will be like, growing up with all of this going on. I can't wait to see!

It was an excellently written update, as always. I'm glad to see you return to writing.
 
Excellent update, well worth the wait. Now to the crushing of the rebel York and his delusions of grandeur. I would be tempted to hedge my bets by diverting forces against both the rebels on the continent and prosecuting the war...but that's just me.
 
I've never allowed it before myself, but what happens if you surrender to noble rebels? Are you thinking about doing so? In terms of the story you wrote, I'd support the Yorkists over the corrupt regency

great update, as usual. one hopes we won't have to wait until MMtG releases for the next one ;D jk
 
Hmm, if the noble armies stay spread out defeating them would be an easy but time consuming task. If they unite you can crush them all in a single move but it would recuire a substantially larger force and that could weaken your continental forces. Either way it´s gotta be annoying to be doing so well in a war (despite losing your king) and when victory is so close you can almost taste it you are betrayed on the homefront. Good luck

Well... I'm doing well in the Low Countries. Not so well in Gascony, as any time the Armagnacs want to engage that siege army, they can kick its butt. Austria and the various allies have sent small token forces to Gascony, but it won't make much of a difference.

Actually, i would be rather interested in what would happen in York wins. Will he simply remain a Lord Regent, or ursurp the young Elizabeth?

York would be happy to be either, really. He wants an efficient government and an England that is (or at least rivals) the regional hegemon; and since the discovery of the New World, those titles have been slipping away to Castile and Portugal, respectively.

The fact that you're still thinking in terms of not wasting the CB suggests you're not overly worried by the present turn of events. That said, the Regency Council is about as bad as it could be given the circumstances.

It gets worse before it gets better. :D Much worse.

This dark time in history certainly makes for a good story, but is playing the game frustrating? I wonder what Elizabeth will be like, growing up with all of this going on. I can't wait to see!

Hypothetically speaking, if I were to play to her stats (which are merely average), her reign would not be the Golden Age we associate with the name Elizabeth today.

I would be tempted to hedge my bets by diverting forces against both the rebels on the continent and prosecuting the war...but that's just me.

I don't think it's too spoilery to say that this is my preferred approach, too.

The rebel-occupied provinces will continue to spit out small numbers of rebels until recaptured, which is a pain. But manpower is a few months from dropping to zero, which will severely impact my ability to sustain combat. The way I see it, the choice is:

1) fight rebels, manpower hits the wall, be forced to sideline 2-3 armies due to lack of reinforcements, then face a monstrous cavalry-heavy Armagnac army with whatever's left.
2) fight a monstrous cavalry-heavy Armagnac army, sideline 2-3 armies immediately due to lack of reinforcements, manpower hits the wall, then face an ever-increasing number of rebels with whatever's left.

Hard to say which strategy will yield the best results.

I've never allowed it before myself, but what happens if you surrender to noble rebels? Are you thinking about doing so? In terms of the story you wrote, I'd support the Yorkists over the corrupt regency

Surrendering to Noble Rebels will heavily increase (and at worst, max out) your aristocracy and serfdom sliders. Which will then beget a whole host of "radical policies" events which sane players want to avoid. You get one event-driven opportunity to negotiate with the rebels, and if you select "negotiate" then you can capitulate and get the "minor" penalties of -50 Legitimacy, -1 year of income, +3 Aristocracy, +2 Serfdom; if you choose not to negotiate but they end up capturing your capital, then you get +5 Aristocracy, +3 Serfdom, +1 Narrowminded.

Not really a whole lot of fun either way, or I'd have caved in already. It would take me 50-60 years of slider moves to undo the mess that it would create.

[...] one hopes we won't have to wait until MMtG releases for the next one ;D jk

I hope so too, because once MMtG is released I'll have to spend a couple weeks playing it, and then of course will want to start an AAR for that. So I've told myself that there will be no playing of MMtG until this AAR wraps up. Although I purchased them a year ago, I've largely stayed away from playing Vicky2 and HoI3 (aside from applying patches) for the same reason.
 
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Good Lord! Chris, how on Earth did you make that gorgeous map showing your armies in the last update? The map is simply stunning, and it's a beautiful and informative graphic. You must have spent hours on it.

...Just seeing that one picture makes me want to read this entire AAR.

EDIT: No, seriously, tell me how you make those maps. I just spent an hour skipping through your AAR (too long to read tonight) and have only gotten more and more envious. They have the borders of EU3, and have state borders where they should be. They're gorgeous. And I love the arrows you're using, and the shields...do you use Photoshop? Tell me, or I swear I'll travel back in time and write in some horrible events for you in the Reformation [1].

[1] Which, I have to say, I'm eagerly looking forward to, especially after your hints - intentional or otherwise - in Capitulum X. Interesting to see how Europe is leaning...most especially Portugal, but it looks like the Holy Roman Empire has some turbulent times ahead, too!
 
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I concur. It's an amazing map and one of the many reasons I love reading this AAR. :)
 
Excellent update as ever. I would not like to be in your shoes with the whole realm in rebellion. Was that just a random event or was it triggered by war exhaustion or a slider change?

In Magna Mundi, every ruler faces possible opposition or unrest after their accession to the throne. Most of the time the successor is confirmed without incident; but regencies have some pretty horrible stability and revolt risk modifiers, and they increase the likelihood that a revolt is going to spawn.

I vow to never pressure you for an update ever again.

Heh, I understand why people do; it doesn't bug me. There isn't one among us who hasn't been impatient to read many fine AARs, and been disappointed when they update slowly, or fizzle out entirely.

yay! Fantastic update, great integration of bizarre game events (such as Byzantium's aid after their betrayal) into a plausible story and very exciting events - can't wait to see how you get out of this one!

Thanks; like I said before it was a very fun period to play, and I was just as curious as you all are right now to see how I would fare in it.

Sometimes the game hands us lemons ("You are a lousy king and we reject your PU! But we're still war-buddies, right?") and you do what you can to make lemonade out of it. I literally couldn't find any way around it except to posit that had an event like this unfolded in real life, it could only have been possible because the commanders at the scene had to wait a couple weeks to get messages to and from London, and by the time they did, the Byzantines would already have landed for provisions and set up shop. It would have placed enormous pressure on the nobleman at the scene, and not too many men would have been willing to fight a war with only the resources they personally command, while waiting a month to find out if the Regency wants to hand you a medal or put your head on a pike.

Good Lord! Chris, how on Earth did you make that gorgeous map showing your armies in the last update? The map is simply stunning, and it's a beautiful and informative graphic. You must have spent hours on it.

I concur. It's an amazing map and one of the many reasons I love reading this AAR. :)

Thanks, gents! The map is the result of many fine tutorials at the Cartographer's Guild. When I first started doing them at the beginning of the AAR, it took a couple days to put one together. Now I've got the process streamlined down to a manageable level and can crank them out in a couple of hours. I try use period-historical borders as much as possible, but sometimes the counties/territories are too tiny to be useful on a forum-scaled map, and in those cases I fall back upon EU3-defined borders.

I use the same country colour palette as the Theatrum Orbis Terrarum map mod, to try and keep visual continuity between the in-game graphics and my map illustrations.

...Just seeing that one picture makes me want to read this entire AAR.

I am gratified that you like it—especially since your Honor of Lancaster AAR is one of my inspirations (both in terms of storytelling and formatting) in starting this effort. The end-of-post poli/econ/mil summaries are one of your innovations, and I liked them so much I decided to employ them too.
 
The LONG WAIT (hint hint, don't torture us, addicts, like this any more ;)) was well worthwhile! What an excquisite story!

Eventually, survivors were discovered in the Bishopric of Liège; they had been so panic-stricken that they retreated east, not west—and that particular army would take a year or more to recover.
Did you actually think they'd got wiped out?

Henri's heir and successor is 29-year-old son Philippe V Lancaster—whose skills in leadership and governance are thought to be amongst Europe's best (ADM 9 DIP 7 MIL 7).
Shame, such a brilliant lad rules your enemy, Burgundy, rather than England. Shouldn't he, btw, have some claim to the English throne. Is he married? Wouldn't his and Elisabeth's union be a dream match?

Though England and the Netherlands are no longer allied, both nations are at war with Burgundy
Make sure it's not them who'll take the spoils. Happened to me a couple of times, I demended vassalisation, forgetting another party was at war with my enemy; a moment later my newly-acquired vassal is a opm since it had got stripped of the rest of its provs. As long as England has land in northern France and around Calais strong Netherlands is bad news.

The Armagnacs have finally defeated the Navarrans and subjected them to vassalage
Navarre lives! :)

Aennelin von Askanien was the daughter of Holy Roman Emperor Ferdinand II
I smell more trouble from these corners.

Sunday, May 25th, 1501 (...) Beatrice d'Este is found dead at the foot of a staircase in Sudeley Castle. (...) Husband Richard receives the news in London on the 27th, and is curiously devoid of emotion.
Such a convenient accident! What's Richard planning? The Dowager, Chrisitina? Or the baby heiress, Elisabeth?

So the clerks still produce receipts and reports, Parliament and the Privy Council still meet—but little is accomplished. It is an elaborate charade giving the appearance of activity, but whose main goal is to avoid actual decisions. Acting on the wrong information on behalf of the wrong regent might land a man in the Tower—or worse.
Oh my! :( How many of us might say it about the way their countries are being run.

Ioannes will improve them further still by way of a wily gambit.
Loved, the way you portrayed this. I wonder wether poor Clifton had to pay for the way he acted.

English spies also note an interesting report from the Armagnac court; the infant son of the Count of Armagnac (who is himself a mere 19-year-old) has died under mysterious circumstances. Some accounts say that the count slew the child after discovering it was not his own; others accuse the countess of smothering it in a rage after learning of her husband's dalliance with a mistress. Whatever the true cause of death, the Gascon court will only refer to it euphemistically as a "hunting accident."
Gruesome storywise, funny gamewise. Well, the Heir to the throne mechanics in THTT could do with some serious overhaul to bring some logic in their working.

Now a critical question confronts the regency; where can these forces be used to best effect? At home, fending off rebels? Or in southwest France, propping up the faltering war effort in Gascony? The Gascon army is an agile monster, having some 11,000 knights and 3,000 footmen; confronting it with less than overwhelming force will result in grievous casualties.
Indeed that's the question. Why do I somehow sympathise with the York and his cause? Even though, given the way the game operates, he's unlikely to win, and real life considerations, bound to be beheaded for treason when he loses; I hope his rebellion will shake and reshape England. Btw, Malta taken by rebels may mean problems, as you surely have no spare troops to send there. After Kent, will there be more lands/lords rallying to the York?
Now that you're fighting them, giving in to the noble rebels is a bad thing, sliders and everything. But did you consider an option of negotiating with them instead of fighting? You'd get some penalties, but I believe you could live with them. At such a critical moment it seemed a safer option.

The most daring (or aggravated) lords might declare in favour of their preferred faction; but the vast majority will sit on the sidelines—as they had in 1399—and wait for one of the struggling titans to be beaten into submission.
And this naturally favours the Regents (that is the player).

One really sucky thing I just thought of—if one does try to restore the union, the Greek army will have to be more or less destroyed. Which will then chum the water for the Ottomans, and possibly the Serbs, and the Bulgarians... and that would put me in a US-Iraq circa 2003 situation. After destroying their army and enforcing the PU, I would have to keep the army there for several years just to fend off predators (until they could build their own). French garrison + Greek garrison + ordinary Territorial Army sounds like a massive expenditure.
And don't forget the colonies. That was you initial plan, you'd need troops there too. The attempt to restore the PU will also be costly, (you'll pbly have to bribe them into positive relations just after the war, so as not to be dragged into yet another should your ruler die prematurely); and it'll slow down colonisation. The question is: stick to your origilan plan or head for what the game events lead you to?

It gets worse before it gets better. :D Much worse.
Can't wait to read about that. Glad it gets better after all. Yet, better for whom? ;) :huh:
 
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May I add my congratulations for this brilliant piece of work, because this it is! I had read the opening chapters a year ago (and then stopped as I couldn't find the time and leisure anymore to delve into AARs due to a change of jobs). And lo and behold this is still going on, and getting better all the time! Thanks!
 
Excellent update, it appears that civil war is inevitable. in all my games of EU3 I've never managed to have such a revolution. Is it more common in Magnus Mundi?
 
Well... I'm doing well in the Low Countries. Not so well in Gascony, as any time the Armagnacs want to engage that siege army, they can kick its butt. Austria and the various allies have sent small token forces to Gascony, but it won't make much of a difference.
Hopefully, that is.
I don't think it's too spoilery to say that this is my preferred approach, too.

The rebel-occupied provinces will continue to spit out small numbers of rebels until recaptured, which is a pain. But manpower is a few months from dropping to zero, which will severely impact my ability to sustain combat. The way I see it, the choice is:

1) fight rebels, manpower hits the wall, be forced to sideline 2-3 armies due to lack of reinforcements, then face a monstrous cavalry-heavy Armagnac army with whatever's left.
2) fight a monstrous cavalry-heavy Armagnac army, sideline 2-3 armies immediately due to lack of reinforcements, manpower hits the wall, then face an ever-increasing number of rebels with whatever's left.
Hard to say which strategy will yield the best results.
Hit the Armagnac's. In my view, there are two opponents but only one enemy. As you've mentioned before, in MMU the costs of war are much greater than vanilla. Ending the war expeditiously is the best option. And ending the war means crushing the army of Armagnac, so better sooner than later. Then you can use the remaining field forces to crush rebels and maintain a force if someone decides to support Armagnac by marching their forces across half of Europe. And are coloured white.

Surrendering to Noble Rebels will heavily increase (and at worst, max out) your aristocracy and serfdom sliders. Which will then beget a whole host of "radical policies" events which sane players want to avoid. You get one event-driven opportunity to negotiate with the rebels, and if you select "negotiate" then you can capitulate and get the "minor" penalties of -50 Legitimacy, -1 year of income, +3 Aristocracy, +2 Serfdom; if you choose not to negotiate but they end up capturing your capital, then you get +5 Aristocracy, +3 Serfdom, +1 Narrowminded.

Not really a whole lot of fun either way, or I'd have caved in already. It would take me 50-60 years of slider moves to undo the mess that it would create.
I sum up this whole thing with UGH (Shudder)!
I hope so too, because once MMtG is released I'll have to spend a couple weeks playing it, and then of course will want to start an AAR for that. So I've told myself that there will be no playing of MMtG until this AAR wraps up. Although I purchased them a year ago, I've largely stayed away from playing Vicky2 and HoI3 (aside from applying patches) for the same reason.
Ah, excellent. Shift those creative juices into high gear then. Motivation for future endeavours.
 
Did you actually think they'd got wiped out?

Yes. I inadvertently let them rot in Liege for a few months until I realised that they were still showing up in the armies list. Oopsie. :D

Shame, such a brilliant lad rules your enemy, Burgundy, rather than England. Shouldn't he, btw, have some claim to the English throne. Is he married? Wouldn't his and Elisabeth's union be a dream match?

Technically, yes—the Burgundian Lancasters would have a tenuous claim on the English throne in this timeline through one of Henry V's brothers. They are not a very prestigious duchy, though, having been beaten up at various points in the previous 100 years by every surrounding power (France, England, HRE). So their ability to attract matrimonial talent from the top-tier nations is somewhat limited; all they've got going for them is the name.

In gameplay terms, this late in the game, Burgundy is all but bound to be inherited by France and the HRE; I don't think that event chain would get derailed even if they were in the PU/vassal relationship with the player nation. If I was going to do it, I should have done in a lot earlier. :sad:

Make sure it's not them who'll take the spoils. Happened to me a couple of times, I demended vassalisation, forgetting another party was at war with my enemy; a moment later my newly-acquired vassal is a opm since it had got stripped of the rest of its provs. As long as England has land in northern France and around Calais strong Netherlands is bad news.

:blink: :eek:

Thus far I have tended to regard the Netherlands as good and faithful allies, the guarantors of Calais-Normandy against French aggression. They did help defend Normandy in the 1474-76 war, and relations are good (seem to naturally fluctuate in the 100-150 range). Hopefully that won't change for a while.

Loved, the way you portrayed this. I wonder wether poor Clifton had to pay for the way he acted.

At the moment, the Regency would be unable to enforce any summons/recall order. He could simply refuse to relinquish his command until conditions were more favourable for him.

Indeed that's the question. Why do I somehow sympathise with the York and his cause? Even though, given the way the game operates, he's unlikely to win, and real life considerations, bound to be beheaded for treason when he loses; I hope his rebellion will shake and reshape England. Btw, Malta taken by rebels may mean problems, as you surely have no spare troops to send there. After Kent, will there be more lands/lords rallying to the York?

Now that you're fighting them, giving in to the noble rebels is a bad thing, sliders and everything. But did you consider an option of negotiating with them instead of fighting? You'd get some penalties, but I believe you could live with them. At such a critical moment it seemed a safer option.

York's rebellion will have a lasting effect, whether or not he survives it. :p

Malta is actually something of a priority since (game-wise) it has a decent fortress and is a royal pain in the a** to siege—unlike Kent, or the non-island Scottish provinces. I definitely do not want to lose it.

I did consider negotiating with the rebels initially, but even the "light" terms would have messed with the sliders too much. From the RP perspective the regents would never have negotiated unless they were in a serious bind. The army's far away but mostly intact, so there's not much motivation to give in without a fight.

And don't forget the colonies. That was you initial plan, you'd need troops there too. [...] The question is: stick to your origilan plan or head for what the game events lead you to?

I must always stick to the original plan, but I try to be somewhat flexible with game-driven events. Byzantium, for example; I didn't have to wade into the Grand Crusade, but I figured it was better to jump in and unify as much of it as possible than leave Greece with Danish and Castilian zones of influence. Had that occurred the Latins would have had motive and opportunity to crush Byzantium at a later date, so I tried to give BYZ the most defensible borders that I could. I'm more than happy to accept and roll with game-driven diversions to a certain extent, but not to the point that they completely overshadow the "1815 Empire" plan.

Excellent update, it appears that civil war is inevitable. in all my games of EU3 I've never managed to have such a revolution. Is it more common in Magnus Mundi?

Magna Mundi has specific events that fire after each monarch ascends to the throne. Sometimes the new sovereign is accepted without question, sometimes they face varying degrees of resistance and even outright revolt. This is about the mid-range of the "Noble Opposition" events; there are much worse "Large Noble Opposition" events that could have fired, creating massive doomstacks. From a storyline perspective I am glad the "Large" revolt did not fire as it would be hard to rationalise rebel armies two to three times as large as the "royal" armies. i.e. if England had all that surplus manpower hanging around, why didn't it all get sent overseas for the war?

The current combined size of royal + rebel forces is very close to my normal totals for army size + manpower, so it's at least plausible. A much huger revolt would have been fun (for both you and me) but hard to justify in the story.

Hit the Armagnac's. In my view, there are two opponents but only one enemy. As you've mentioned before, in MMU the costs of war are much greater than vanilla. Ending the war expeditiously is the best option. And ending the war means crushing the army of Armagnac, so better sooner than later. Then you can use the remaining field forces to crush rebels and maintain a force if someone decides to support Armagnac by marching their forces across half of Europe. And are coloured white.

This is a sensible opinion and definitely a more fiscally responsible method—though I should mention that in the past, I have lost to rebels using this approach. Sometimes the foreign enemy is too much of a meat grinder, destroys your main combat formations, and then you lack the manpower to resurrect them enough to mount a siege on the rebel-held provinces. And the longer the rebels hold them, the more rebel armies they keep spitting out. Eventually you end up being forced to accept max Aristocracy and Serfdom.

Which is not to say that it's a bad approach. It all depends on how the battles go; some days you get the bear, and some days the bear and every woodland creature in a 15 mile radius get you. I don't have any über-generals anymore, so the days of throwing 18,000 of my men at 26,000 enemies (and getting a victory out of it) are long gone.
 
This is a sensible opinion and definitely a more fiscally responsible method—though I should mention that in the past, I have lost to rebels using this approach. Sometimes the foreign enemy is too much of a meat grinder, destroys your main combat formations, and then you lack the manpower to resurrect them enough to mount a siege on the rebel-held provinces. And the longer the rebels hold them, the more rebel armies they keep spitting out. Eventually you end up being forced to accept max Aristocracy and Serfdom.

Which is not to say that it's a bad approach. It all depends on how the battles go; some days you get the bear, and some days the bear and every woodland creature in a 15 mile radius get you. I don't have any über-generals anymore, so the days of throwing 18,000 of my men at 26,000 enemies (and getting a victory out of it) are long gone.
Ah...the bear. And rebel provinces...wretched hives of scum and villany etc etc
Whatever happens I'm sure it'll be entertaining for me :)...you, perhaps, not so much:unsure: