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Thread: The Winged Lion attempts to soar and roar - a Persian AAR

  1. #61
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    First of all, let me just say how amazed I am that you've come this far. I usually get a resounding buttspanking when I try westernizing. Secondly, I would recommend you go towards the Middle-East. Take the whatever you can on the arabian penninsula and around Palestine a prepare for the next war with Spain, 'cause I don't think they're through with you yet...
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  2. #62
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    I guess if you want to encourage craftsmen you could always raise taxes for the lower class so that farming is less profitable than factory work.
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  3. #63
    Part Time Warp aldriq's Avatar
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    Good job holding off Spain and France (even more after upgrading to 1.2). Looking at the little mess you got there with the research points and national focus I think I'll wait to finish my game with Ethiopia before upgrading, though... seems all a bit too unpredictable.

    I notice you chose (maybe?) to subsidise your factories (to the tune of £260 per day, according to the budget screen, top-right), and you just offset this cost by raising tariffs to 28%. When I westernised I was unaware of this little fact, that State Capitalism by default subsidises all your factories, I thought it was all factory/railroad building costs, so for 5 years I let it all go to debt until I realised it was to do with subsidies and I could actually fine-tune them or switch them off altogether, which I did in the end...

    So the £1m question is, would you be better off at this stage removing subsidies, lowering tariffs and letting only the good industry survive? (and no, I don't know the answer to this yet as I'm still tinkering in my own game).
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by coola567 View Post
    First of all, let me just say how amazed I am that you've come this far. I usually get a resounding buttspanking when I try westernizing. Secondly, I would recommend you go towards the Middle-East. Take the whatever you can on the arabian penninsula and around Palestine a prepare for the next war with Spain, 'cause I don't think they're through with you yet...
    Thanks for the props! . I do have most of the Arabian Peninsula in my SOI, the only exceptions are Jordan (owned by Kingdom of Two Sicilies), and the stuff that Spain has grabbed. I have them both in my sights


    Quote Originally Posted by thatguy View Post
    I guess if you want to encourage craftsmen you could always raise taxes for the lower class so that farming is less profitable than factory work.
    hi thatguy, if you look at my 'summary' post you will see that taxes on the lower class are around double that on the middle class (which are at the minimum), so I am doing what you suggest, it just doesn't seem to have much effect.


    Quote Originally Posted by aldriq View Post
    Good job holding off Spain and France (even more after upgrading to 1.2). Looking at the little mess you got there with the research points and national focus I think I'll wait to finish my game with Ethiopia before upgrading, though... seems all a bit too unpredictable.
    Yes, I was going to hold off as well, but (maybe because I'm using Steam?) the thing auto-updated on me when I started the game up.


    Quote Originally Posted by aldriq View Post
    I notice you chose (maybe?) to subsidise your factories (to the tune of £260 per day, according to the budget screen, top-right), and you just offset this cost by raising tariffs to 28%. .....

    So the £1m question is, would you be better off at this stage removing subsidies, lowering tariffs and letting only the good industry survive? (and no, I don't know the answer to this yet as I'm still tinkering in my own game).
    that's a really good question, I've debated it myself, but I've seen many posts on this forum of the form "I switched to laissez-faire, half my factories closed, and now I'm no longer a great power" - I have been thinking that these subsidies are the 'price to pay' to keep a high industrial score.
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  5. #65
    Major Alfredian's Avatar
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    My gut instinct is that Egypt is the bigest prize on offer. It is at least small enough that you could beat it. Would southern Russia just swallow up your armies before you got to anything significant?
    Last edited by Alfredian; 11-10-2010 at 13:04. Reason: inability to spell

  6. #66
    Historically plausible Dewirix's Avatar
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    I think you've been a little bit hard done by with the conversion to 1.2 as your research priorities would have been different if you'd have known about the changes.

    The fact that the plurality boost is now capped at 100% and the difference shuffled onto some previously near-useless culture techs really hurts (although a welcome change from an 1836 start).

    As to what to do now, I'd say start acting like a proper Great Power and go after the little guys. Maybe take a chunk (or all) of some high-population, high resource but low-tech state, like Korea or Brunei. So long as they aren't allied to a major even an upupgraded navy should be enough.

    Research has to be the priority for though. You need to concentrate on upping your literacy, keeping the education slider at 100 per cent. Sure you'll get too many priests and lose some to promotion, but at least more of your POPs will learn to read -> more research points -> more RGO-shrinking techs that will free up workers for the factories.
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  7. #67
    Colonel badger_ken's Avatar
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    thanks for the inputs!

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfredian View Post
    My gut instinct is that Egypt is the bigest prize on offer. It is at least small enough that you could beat it. Would southern Russia just swallow up your armies before you got to anything significant?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    As to what to do now, I'd say start acting like a proper Great Power and go after the little guys. Maybe take a chunk (or all) of some high-population, high resource but low-tech state, like Korea or Brunei. So long as they aren't allied to a major even an upupgraded navy should be enough.
    ahh, but remember that my infamy is 18 - it will be some years before I can go munching on somebody without a CB. I'm especially leery of BB as I'm already seeing the effects of 1.2 on the UK - they have gone from powerful to ridiculously overpowered. I would like to keep the Eye of Sauron focused elsewhere, if you know what I mean


    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    I think you've been a little bit hard done by with the conversion to 1.2 as your research priorities would have been different if you'd have known about the changes.

    The fact that the plurality boost is now capped at 100% and the difference shuffled onto some previously near-useless culture techs really hurts (although a welcome change from an 1836 start).
    Indeed - having one of my NFs gone is a big bummer, too - I may even try editing the save-game file. I have thought about ending the game, but it's fun enough and far along enough that I'm keeping it going, as a learning experience if nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    Research has to be the priority for though. You need to concentrate on upping your literacy, keeping the education slider at 100 per cent. Sure you'll get too many priests and lose some to promotion, but at least more of your POPs will learn to read -> more research points -> more RGO-shrinking techs that will free up workers for the factories.
    While I agree on the burning need for more literacy, those RGO-shrinking techs shrink the RGOs so little (1%), that it seems there must be a better way to shake those farmers loose and turn them into craftsmen (or, what I really want, clerks, for their literacy).

    I've played the next few years, and tried to see if removing subsidies on unprofitable factories would shake things up, the good news is, the AI does indeed build better replacement factories, the bad news is, it seems to be a steady state - if I close n factories, n new ones get built, while overall the pop remains 84% farmers/laborers, 3% craftsmen. Grrr....
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  8. #68
    Historically plausible Dewirix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by badger_ken View Post
    ahh, but remember that my infamy is 18 - it will be some years before I can go munching on somebody without a CB. I'm especially leery of BB as I'm already seeing the effects of 1.2 on the UK - they have gone from powerful to ridiculously overpowered. I would like to keep the Eye of Sauron focused elsewhere, if you know what I mean
    The 'Establish Protectorate' CB should be open against any Unciv. It's 8 infamy, so you've only got a year or so to wait. From my experience, hovering at around 24 BB is fine, but I agree you don't want to go beyond that.

    I also sympathise with your fear of Britain. I finished a Colombia game yesterday and loaded up as GB to check why they were so far ahead. Amongst other things they had over 100 dreadnoughts!

    I'd thought I was doing well with 8!

    Quote Originally Posted by badger_ken View Post
    While I agree on the burning need for more literacy, those RGO-shrinking techs shrink the RGOs so little (1%), that it seems there must be a better way to shake those farmers loose and turn them into craftsmen (or, what I really want, clerks, for their literacy).

    I've played the next few years, and tried to see if removing subsidies on unprofitable factories would shake things up, the good news is, the AI does indeed build better replacement factories, the bad news is, it seems to be a steady state - if I close n factories, n new ones get built, while overall the pop remains 84% farmers/laborers, 3% craftsmen. Grrr....
    In my limited experience I've never really seen industrialisation take off until the RGOs are filled up. However, that's from playing as low-population South American states. I'm not sure that building more factories will help though, if you can't fill the ones you've got.
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  9. #69
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    Russia is probably a paper tiger by this point what with their rebel troubles. Your military score is much higher than theirs as well. I'm not sure if any of the provinces of Russian Asia (just to the north of Persia) or the Caucasus are worth taking, though.

  10. #70
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    Chapter 9: life in the 20th Century

    Chapter 9: life in the 20th Century

    Welcome back to the AAR, this chapter features a lot of combat (always a crowd-pleaser ), and yet more Lessons Learned.

    When we left Persia, it was 1900, and I was, for once, at peace.

    THE IRAQI "Honey-Pot"

    Peace only lasts about 6 months, as in January 1900 Portugal DOWs Iraq, which is in my SOI, though not my Ally (I have been refusing all my SOI ally requests, as having them enter a war I call just adds them as easy targets, and in a war against them, as we see here, I get called anyways). They call me, and I answer - I wonder if the AI isn't smart enough to consider me as a foe?

    Portugal and I stare at each other for about a year, until Portugal gives up and we do a White Peace. I only mention this thrilling episode because of later events.....

    OPPORTUNITY KNOCKS

    In October 1901, a major event changes things, as China DOWs Russia! This seems like an opportunity that I can't let pass, I have to assume that China will give Russia all it can handle and then some. I scramble to move my troops into position, and in April 1902 Persia DOWs Russia! My, my, how far we've come

    Russia calls on a handful of allies from the far north -
    Sweden, Finland, and I think Krakow - nothing that really alters things.

    In a sign that Allah may be smiling on us, shortly after the DOW, I get "Inorganic Chemistry", which raises my supply limit by 25% - just the thing for trekking across the Russian steppes.

    THE IRAQI "Honey-Pot", Round 2

    In a sign that Allah may be frowning on us, shortly after the DOW, it's now the Netherlands turn to DOW Iraq. I keep a deterrent force along the Persian Gulf, and decide this two-front war means I must mobilize the reserves - most troops go streaming north.

    THE War against Russia

    For two months, my troops stream northwards through the Caucasus, spying nary a Russian soldier - it looks like China has indeed diverted most of the Russian troops.

    This happy state ends in June 1902, as a significant Russian force comes marching in from the east - another sign that they may have been fighting the Chinese. In our first key battle, 76K fightin' Persians take on 77K hopefully-less-fightin' Russians in a battle around Astrakhan (just north of the Caspian Sea). To my delight, as I watch the battle, it looks like all those years of focusing on military tech have paid off, as the Russia morale drops quicker than mine does. Although our casualties are roughly equal, Persia wins the battle! The Persian lion roars its delight - this is, I think, our first victory ever against a European force of more than 3K troops. Yes, I know it's just Russia, but hey, don't harsh my mellow

    After this, I decide on a 'narrow front' offensive, basically driving in a spearhead straight to Moscow. I fight battle after battle on a rolling front along the way - the graphic below shows the 4 biggest battles, the first one (with the '1') being the first, key battle:



    I feel like I'm playing HOI3 , as I wend my way towards Moscow. Over the next 6 months, up to January 1903, I fight 13 battles, winning all 13 - the graphic above showed the biggest 4. I'm besieging Moscow, baby!

    Lesson: it's the battles, not the territory

    The 13 victories give me a cumulative war score of 12.0. Territorially, I have conquered a stripe of Russia from the Caucasus due North, all the way up to Moscow - I would guess at least 20 provinces, probably about 25% of Russia. My total war score turns out to be .... 21.

    I'm debating whether to add another war goal, when a massive infestation of rebels breaks out in Russia, mostly in my territories - check out the map below, which also shows my progress:



    Doesn't this look like an HOI3 screen grab?

    I decide not to add an additional war goal besides the 'humiliation' CB I had at the start, as
    • I have all these rebels to deal with, and
    • I am still at war with the Dutch to the south, and
    • My infamy is still at, I think, 19 - I can't add a war goal without going over BB, and
    • Attrition has whittled my army down to about 1/3 its original size, and
    • in January 1903, China bows out with a White Peace. Uh-oh.
    • I'm a wimp

    So the war ends in March 1903, when Russia agrees to Humiliation! <insert ululation noise here> A day of national celebration is declared!

    Beating the Europeans, the second time

    The Dutch finally land an expeditionary force in Iraq. Emboldened by my success against the Russians, I decide to take on the Dutch with a force that 'only' outnumbers them 3-1. This may seem excessively timid, but remember that about 10 years earlier I fought battles against the Spanish and Portugese where I outnumbered them 10-1 and barely won.

    It's another sign that my army has come a long way, as I win the battle ([1] below), and eventually wipe out the Dutch expeditionary force entirely ([2])!



    Excellent! The Dutch white-peace out a few months later.

    UK gets awesomer

    In October 1904, the UK DOWs china, and by August 1906 it has grabbed off two big chunks of China - check it out:



    Provinces '1' and '2' are taken from China by the UK.

    By June 1906 China enters the UK SOI. The UK is Godzilla in this game now.

    The only 'good news' here is that as part of this war the UK asked me for military access, which I cravenly immediately granted - I figure it's another deterrent to a UK attack.

    Beating the Europeans, the third time

    My experiences with Russia and the Netherlands have me feeling that I'm now on a par, or nearly so, with the Europeans militarily. when I see that Hedjaz (owned by Spain, the red-sea part of Saudi-Arabia) is rebel-controlled (which usually is a signal for no army in the area), and with my infamy finally all the way down to 17 , I DOW Spain in January 1907

    I cruise into the little nubbin of Turkey they own, and drive the Spanish into the sea - in [2] below you see the elimination of the Spanish army. Bwa ha ha.



    However, despite this, the Spanish blockade means I only have a +4 war score. Note to self: next game, have a dominant navy

    To make things worse, I get an alert in March 1907 that I will lose Great Power status



    My military exploits aren't enough to outweigh my lack of industrial progress, and lack of a navy .

    However, by April 1908 the Spanish give in, and I get two more nice Turkish provinces



    (1) shows my new provinces. (2) shows that the UK owns the Suez canal (and Egypt is in their SOI, hence my inability to attack them).

    The new coastal province, the Spanish had thoughtfully upgraded up to a Level 3 railroad (I'm only at level 2), and a naval base to boot:



    In other news

    The world has been pretty quiet for a while, but in 1907



    1) Italy forms
    2) Prussia rips off a chunk of Austria:
    3) Ukraine is doing quite nicelyl
    4) Ireland has conquered Scotland

    THE IRAQI "Honey-Pot", Round 3

    I've been at peace for a whole week when in April 1908 Iraq gets DOWed yet again, this time by Portugal. Obviously something in the AI deems Iraq a tempting target. Once again I answer the call, once again Portugal flails (in a particularly nasty AI fail, they march 25K soldiers into the arabian desert, which attrition whittles down to 3K), once again they white-peace out after about 18 months - the net affect of all this is that these guys are all taking minor hits to their Prestige and Infamy numbers.

    THE Spanish tail-spin

    My war against the Spanish seems to have knocked them off the cliff - in October 1908 the Philipines secedes, in July 1809 they go bankrupt, in February 1810 France DOWs them and gets Taza (a province in North Africa), and in June 1810 Portugal DOWs them.

    The pitter-patter of little jack-booted feet

    My populace started something like 90% Conservative, and now in 1908 it's still something like 40% conservative (and with a solid plurality). No social reform has ever gotten above 11% support ('trinket pensions', I beleive) - even if I wanted to, I've never been anywhere close to having an Upper House that would grant reforms, not that I needed to.

    However, it appears that the game feels that if you don't reform long enough, eventually it's time for.....



    Fascists! They come out of nowhere in 1908 and get 2.48% of the house, in each of the next two years they add another percent, at the expense of all the other parties. Perhaps in imitating Prussia I went a little bit too far


    Another lesson learned: it's the Navy and the Factories

    So, how could I still be barely clinging to 8th place, given my glorious conquests? Take a look at the ledger, and all will be clear:



    First, two side notes:
    (1) The UK is Godzilla. both their military and industrial scores probably exceed every other countries put together.

    (2) Austria has 7 prestige! I guess doing nothing but letting Prussia beat you up for 70 years has its downside

    (3) Note how the USCA and Colombia are ranked 7th and 11th in the world, respectively. Neither has fought a single war the entire game. However, if you sit quietly and industrialize (as Colombia is doing), or if you sit quietly and industrialize and build a big navy (as USCA has), you can rack up quite the high score.

    (4) Denmark shows this as well - note how their military score (437) is over three times that of Persia, and over twice that of Prussia. Now, I really doubt that the Danish army is anything that will scare Prussia. The answer seems to be that it's all about the Navy.

    So, I think the game is showing us that if you want to have fun, you can certainly conquer, conquer, conquer. However, if you want to win (or at least finish second to the UK, which I would now consider winning ), you don't need that - focus on the Navy and the Industry.
    Last edited by badger_ken; 13-10-2010 at 18:45.
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  11. #71
    Second Lieutenant Melrick's Avatar
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    Hmm very interesting. I often wondered if the navy really was all that important, if you have a good army, and obviously it is. So I guess if you can't build a big army, build a big navy, if you can afford it, which is where the industry comes into it.

  12. #72
    Historically plausible Dewirix's Avatar
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    Excellent handling of the war against Russia! Were you fighting the same stack all the time, or were all the battles complete wipeouts for the Russians?

    Quote Originally Posted by badger_ken
    (4) Denmark shows this as well - note how their military score (437) is over three times that of Persia, and over twice that of Prussia. Now, I really doubt that the Danish army is anything that will scare Prussia. The answer seems to be that it's all about the Navy.
    From the discussions on modernising Japan I think we've concluded that you don't actually need to build any troops at all - just to raise the number of potential brigades by turning POPs into soldiers.

    Navies also don't seem to count for much, at least until you get cruisers and dreadnoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by badger_ken
    My war against the Spanish seems to have knocked them off the cliff - in October 1908 the Philipines secedes, in July 1809 they go bankrupt, in February 1810 France DOWs them and gets Taza (a province in North Africa), and in June 1810 Portugal DOWs them.
    Look, I know you're doing well and all, but I hardly think you can take credit for the Napoleonic wars.
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  13. #73
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    You'd think that the UK would be more interested in reclaiming Ireland and Northern Scotland than taking swathes of China, wouldn't you?

    The Netherlands invading Iraq? Hmmm, this gives me an idea...
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    Excellent handling of the war against Russia! Were you fighting the same stack all the time, or were all the battles complete wipeouts for the Russians?



    From the discussions on modernising Japan I think we've concluded that you don't actually need to build any troops at all - just to raise the number of potential brigades by turning POPs into soldiers.

    Navies also don't seem to count for much, at least until you get cruisers and dreadnoughts.



    Look, I know you're doing well and all, but I hardly think you can take credit for the Napoleonic wars.
    You didn't just knock them off a cliff, you knocked them into the previous century!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    Excellent handling of the war against Russia! Were you fighting the same stack all the time, or were all the battles complete wipeouts for the Russians?
    Thanks! It was a confused 'scrum'. In a few cases it was me pursuing a previously defeated stack (I think 'battle #2' was one of those - pursuit victories are oh-so-sweet), but most of them were AI fails as the AI streamed troops westward (from the chinese front) or eastward (from Krakow) and I got to defeat them in detail. Good thing, as if they would have combined and rested they could have beaten me. To be fair to the AI, it didn't seem too much of a fail, as I could see a Russian army going all-out to protect Moscow.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    From the discussions on modernising Japan I think we've concluded that you don't actually need to build any troops at all - just to raise the number of potential brigades by turning POPs into soldiers.

    Navies also don't seem to count for much, at least until you get cruisers and dreadnoughts.
    Good points, and thanks for the thread pointer, especially as I'm thinking of playing Japan next but (a) I doubt Denmark has much of a population base, I guess I could load them and see, and (b) remember that we are now in cruiser/dreadnought territory.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzhang (譚張) View Post
    You'd think that the UK would be more interested in reclaiming Ireland and Northern Scotland than taking swathes of China, wouldn't you?
    Indeed you would, especially as Ireland is actually coming close to becoming a GP!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tanzhang (譚張) View Post
    The Netherlands invading Iraq? Hmmm, this gives me an idea...
    I'm sure you will, in fact, be treated as liberators .

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewirix View Post
    Look, I know you're doing well and all, but I hardly think you can take credit for the Napoleonic wars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Troggle View Post
    You didn't just knock them off a cliff, you knocked them into the previous century!
    Thanks for reading the post so closely ! What can I say, all my Victoria2 notepaper has "18__" for the dates, when my executive assistant enters them into this forum sometimes mistakes are made
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  16. #76
    Part Time Warp aldriq's Avatar
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    Spain, Russia... all a bunch of have-beens, there is nothing they can do to stop the King of Kings

    Time for another Ottoman chunk, I'd say, before the Irish become GP and include the Ottos in their sphere (then you'd be, of course, doomed)
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  17. #77
    Colonel badger_ken's Avatar
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    hi all, just to give a pointer, for those interested, I put a post in the main Vic2 thread that tries to figure out exactly how MIL score is calculated - would appreciate any inputs you all have to offer.
    Author of the CK2 Matchmaker - a tool that analyzes your save-games to help you find that perfect noble.

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  18. #78

  19. #79
    Corporal Gunner243's Avatar
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    I've been having a fantastic time reading this and your Mexico AAR. Thanks and keep up the great stories!

  20. #80
    Colonel olvirki's Avatar
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    Good aar, (i have not given you a complement before, right) It is just undescribable to picture in your a Persian superpower, railroads and so on.
    My AARs: Inkwell, my AARs are near the bottom of the page, the 4th last on page 11

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