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Have the Ottomans westernised (or do they start out westernised)?.

How can I find out? I have noticed no railroads showing up next to my borders, that's my only clue.
 
You have to be Westernized to be a Great Power, and the Ottomans start as a GP, so they are definitely Westernized from game start.

You're absolutely right! Can't believe I didn't realise that.

And that let's me answer badger_ken's question. You can see who the uncivs are when you look in the country rankings.
 
You're absolutely right! Can't believe I didn't realise that.

And that let's me answer badger_ken's question. You can see who the uncivs are when you look in the country rankings.

Whoops! Thanks Dewirix and winsingtonIII!

I can report that the Ottoman has built a few factories, but no railroads in sight - update coming when I get a chance!
 
Chapter 5: the Lion takes a bite

Chapter 5: the Lion takes a bite


When we left Persia, it was 1869, and Persia had just Westernized, after ennexing Kalat, and having a BadBoy of 24.7.


From 1869 all the way through 1876, I sit quietly and build up. Why so calm?

1) My Bad Boy is so high - even while in Russia's SOI, I don't want to risk the wrath of Infamy.

2) To my amazement, as I sit quietly twiddling my thumbs, my rank goes from 14 (in 1867) to .... 10! Great Power status is in sight! I figured, if it ain't broke, why fix it?

Catching up in Technology...

I acquire "Ideological Thought" in 1869. The plurality gains from this, coupled with being Westernized, coupled with being a Secondary Power, move my RP way up - I can now knock off Level 1 technologies in about a year! My primary focus is on the Miltary, looking forwards to expansionst days ahead, but I try to keep up on the Industrial as well:

1870 - Military Staff System (allows building cavalry)
1871 - Basic Chemistry (a bit of a booby prize, as it allows building Fertilizer factories, which the AI is excessively fond of, but it's a pre-req for Medicine, which I really want)
1873 - Command Principle - improves army morale
1874 - Medicine. A truly wonderful tech. Not only does it increase the supply limit significently (a big factor in the mountains and deserts of the Middle East), but it also increases population growth.
1875 - Early Classical Theory. A cultural tech whose effect, oddly, is to unlock a bunch of factory types. (Though I need prestige, I've stayed away from the Cultural prestige techs, as by this point they bestow almost nothing).
1877 - Muzzle-loaded rifles. Gotta keep that army strong.


Peacetime Progress

In 1872 my industry is now to the stage that I'm not building factories anymore, the problem is much more that I have lots of factories with very few craftsmen, so I switch back to the 'Conservative' party, as the populace is still solidly Conservative, and I figger this might help something. Somewhere. Somehow :)

By the way, in 1874 I notice that

1874steel.jpg


(1) I am one of the top 3 exporters of Steel, despite having no seel factories in my country! Huh??

Also see that (2) my #1 import, by far, is Iron. This will play a factor in the years to come :)

In May 1874, Russia offers me an alliance! On the one hand, I'm already in their SOI, so I'm not sure this gains me that much. On the other hand, I still feel like I need that Russian security blanket as tightly wrapped around me as possible, as other powers start getting more and more jealous/covetous - I accept the offer.


WHY, LOOKEE THERE

So there I am, in January 1876, when I happen to idly notice that a goodly chunk of the Ottoman Empire is not just in rebellion, but actually rebel-controlled!

18761oerebellion.jpg


The light red areas above are rebel-controlled.

My Bad Boy is down to 9, 1/2 of the Ottoman Empire is owned by Rebels, I'm Westernized and ready to go! I decide to jump into the fray:

First, I extend the <warning: shameless self-promotion> Victoria2 advisor so that it will tell me which countries have the biggest problems with Rebels - check it out:

18771rebels.jpg


75% of Mexico is rebel-controlled! 1/3 of the Ottoman Empire! Over half of Russia! What's going on? I don't know if this as-design, or a bug - anyone have any thoughts?

Second, I use this to decide not to call Russia - not only might they take leadership away from me (it's awful being the junior partner in an alliance), but it seems they have bigger worries right now and won't be much help anyway.

WAR WITH THE OTTOMAN - OPENING MOVES

The first question is - what should my war goal be? This time, for whatever reason, I'm offered "Conquer State", which I wasn't offered last time (in 1857, when I decided not to fight them). Sounds good! - but which one? After much hemming and hawing, I decide to go for 'Kars' - this is the northeast province of Turkey, near the Caucasus. I choose this bcause (a) it has two iron-producing provinces (see above - it's my #1 import), and (b) it deprives Russia of an eastern land border with the Ottomans - I think I have now eclipsed the Ottoman, and would like them all to myself, thank you avery much!

A few months later I add a "release puppet" goal on Wallachia - for 1 infamy, it can gain me 5 prestige (nice), and takes the Ottomans down another peg.

Things start well, as the Ottoman's only significant ally, France, dishonours the alliance. Yes!

As I start to move into Turkish territory, note all the Russia rebels (shaded in pale red) - I have also outlined the state (Kars) that I am seeking to acquire in a lovely pale green.

1877opening.jpg


The war turns out to be the best kind - the really boring kind! The Ottoman turns out to be a paper tiger, fielding only one army of 20K - there are a few spirited battles, as my force is so spread out, but by March 1877 the Ottoman army is destroyed. However, the Ottomans stubbornly hold out until nearly all of Turkey is controlled by yours truly - they finally give in in August 1877.

18778afterwar.jpg


The new map is shown above [1] is my new territory (Kars), [2] is the new state of Wallachia, peeled off from the Ottoman Empire, [3] is the new state of Ukraine.

By November 1877
187711rank.jpg


I am in 8th place! Next stop, Great Power!

THE WORLD SHE IS A'CHANGIN....

I'm not sure whether these are coincidental or related, but a huge storm of rebellion and secession is sweeping the globe.

In 1875 Texas declares independence from Mexico (Mexico won in the 1830s).
Also in 1875 Ireland declares independence from the UK.
In 1876 Scotland declares independence from the UK - it also looks like the western half of England is rebel-controlled.

1876ukrebells.jpg


What is going on?


In 1877, Finland declares independence from Russia.
Also in 1877, Ukraine declares independence from Russia.
Also in 1877, Bosnia-Herzegovina declares independence from the Ottoman Empire.
 
Uh oh, looks like this is going to be a particularly bad game for rebels... hopefully after 1.2 they will be a bit less ridiculous.

On the upside, keep an eye on those Russian rebels in Georgia and the Ottoman rebels in Iraq. If they are Georgian and Iraqi nationalists, the states of Georgia and Iraq could break off, and you know what that means, easy pickings for the Winged Lion!

I've always found that the Ottomans are a huge pushover as well. They have the population to be fielding large armies, but they never actually fight with anything more than 30-40 thousand troops. It's very strange, it's almost as if they never mobilize the populace.
 
The Persians have justly usurped the Ottomans as the Great Power in the region it would seem. Did you have a CB on them when you declared war?

You do seem to be seeing a lot of rebel problems. In the game I had Britain stayed intact all the way down to 1936. I had to put up with a lot of communist uprisings in the 20th century, but much of that was due to me trying to drive up militantcy so I could enact social reforms.
 
Is that Spain in control of Mecca and Medina?!
 
I see the rebel bug is alive and well. You did not mod in the popular changes then I presume?
 
A weakened Russia could also be very positive as you step up to Great Power status. How many rebels dot hey have left after all those states seceding?
 
Great AAR, keep it up. Always like to see a small, minor country come out on top when well led. Why did you limit yourself to only seizing one small region if you had the Ottomans at your feet. I would of went for at least one more region and took the Infamy hit, knowing that they are not a threat anyway if they decide to DOW due to high infamy. While securing another region, you could of forced them to release more puppets, which costs a lot less infamy and in turn takes the Ottomans down a peg, or a whole ladder.

Just suggestions, but you are doing great, probably a lot better than ever would with Persia.
 
Great AAR, keep it up. Always like to see a small, minor country come out on top when well led. Why did you limit yourself to only seizing one small region if you had the Ottomans at your feet. I would of went for at least one more region and took the Infamy hit, knowing that they are not a threat anyway if they decide to DOW due to high infamy. While securing another region, you could of forced them to release more puppets, which costs a lot less infamy and in turn takes the Ottomans down a peg, or a whole ladder.

In the Author's Mexico AAR, he was torn apart by BB-influenced wars from the UK and USA. Once bitten, twice shy i suppose...
I do think Ken, that you're being a little too cautious. Maybe you should take Afghanistan before someone else (The British) does?
 
How big is your army?

I say this because the Ottomans are pretty useless but the Russians are really not any better they just tend to have a few more soldiers. Neither of them are really much of a threat despite looking big and scary. British India is a different story :p
 
Thanks for the inputs all!

Uh oh, looks like this is going to be a particularly bad game for rebels... hopefully after 1.2 they will be a bit less ridiculous.
I see the rebel bug is alive and well. You did not mod in the popular changes then I presume?

It's interesting though that in Persia I've had actually fewer rebels than usual, it's never been a problem. Is this just AI fail?

And this is with totally vanilla 1.1 - no mods at all - wasn't sure which the "popular changes" were, especially with 1.2 looming.

On the upside, keep an eye on those Russian rebels in Georgia and the Ottoman rebels in Iraq. If they are Georgian and Iraqi nationalists, the states of Georgia and Iraq could break off, and you know what that means, easy pickings for the Winged Lion!

Actually, I think I'd rather they stay part of the OE, as that way it's "conquer state" (-10 infamy) as opposed to "annex" (-20 infamy).

I've always found that the Ottomans are a huge pushover as well. They have the population to be fielding large armies, but they never actually fight with anything more than 30-40 thousand troops. It's very strange, it's almost as if they never mobilize the populace.

Odd. Maybe I'll try the OE in my next game....


The Persians have justly usurped the Ottomans as the Great Power in the region it would seem. Did you have a CB on them when you declared war?

Nope, hence the -10 infamy hit :(

Is that Spain in control of Mecca and Medina?!

Indeed - Spain has been very aggressive this game - they even own a little pocket north of Beirut (Aleppo, I think).


A weakened Russia could also be very positive as you step up to Great Power status. How many rebels dot hey have left after all those states seceding?

Eventually the rebels "impose their demands", after that they still control 31 provinces (compared to the 207 that Russia owns - man, Russia is immense).


Great AAR, keep it up. Always like to see a small, minor country come out on top when well led. Why did you limit yourself to only seizing one small region if you had the Ottomans at your feet. I would of went for at least one more region and took the Infamy hit, knowing that they are not a threat anyway if they decide to DOW due to high infamy. While securing another region, you could of forced them to release more puppets, which costs a lot less infamy and in turn takes the Ottomans down a peg, or a whole ladder.

Just suggestions, but you are doing great, probably a lot better than ever would with Persia.

Thanks!
I didn't take another region because of the additional -10 infamy hit. It wasn't the OE deciding to DOW me, it was the UK, the "cop" of Victoria2 - in my Mexico AAR, as Tanzhang mentions below, the UK DOWed me every 5 years like clockwork once I crossed BB, it was quite the annoyance.

I did make them release a puppet - Wallachia.

In the Author's Mexico AAR, he was torn apart by BB-influenced wars from the UK and USA. Once bitten, twice shy i suppose...
I do think Ken, that you're being a little too cautious. Maybe you should take Afghanistan before someone else (The British) does?

Re once bitten - indeed! This is only my second game, I'm trying to feel my way through the Infamy dance. I clearly went too far with Mexico, perhaps not quite far enough with Persia, though when I do nothing for 9 years and move from rank 14 to rank 10, it made me think maybe the game system is trying to give me a clue :)

Re Afghanistan - I've thought about it, but it seems like the OE is a much more tempting target. First, Afghanistan is now small enough that it's "annex" (-20 infamy) instead of "conquer state" (-10). Second, it doesn't have that much in it - the region I took from the OE, for example, had a factory. The two provinces produce, I think, Sheep, which I am already the world's #1 exporter of. Third, do I really need more frontage with the UK? For now I'm happy to leave them be.

How big is your army?

I say this because the Ottomans are pretty useless but the Russians are really not any better they just tend to have a few more soldiers. Neither of them are really much of a threat despite looking big and scary. British India is a different story :p

My army is around 80 regiments, which I think is actually slightly greater than Russia's now. However, given the incredible vastness of Russia, it seems like defeating Russia is impossible - I don't know how anyone ever does it - as Russia I would simply wait out the invaders. The OE has plenty of states left :), and is a far easier target. Also, I'm currently allied with Russia - why throw that away?
 
Actually, I think I'd rather they stay part of the OE, as that way it's "conquer state" (-10 infamy) as opposed to "annex" (-20 infamy).



Odd. Maybe I'll try the OE in my next game....

Good point, I forgot that conquer state was much less infamy.

I just started up an OE grand campaign and they start with a max of 51 possible brigades plus 3 mobilized brigades. That's 162,000 men, and yet I consistently see them using 40,000 men max, even when they are going up against Russia. Very strange.
 
I think its because OE starts with pretty useless technology and the AI mismanages it so they can't afford the soldiers and rebels start taking over. I've seen Russia around 1900 on game with 40 brigade max, its pretty silly.
 
Well also doesn't the OE also have some negative modifiers to it since the OE comes crashing down in the 19th century? Maybe that would explain why the AI always mismanages the country and why it usually always does poorly? I don't know...I'm just shooting in the dark.

Excellent update, by the way! :)
 
Congratulations on the early westernisation and the victory against the OE, pity that the rebels seem to be distorting the game quite a bit.

Interesting that your population is still deeply conservative (and even your upper house), while my Ethiopian population has gradually become more liberal...
 
Chapter 6: growing into the new role

Chapter 6: growing into the new role

Welcome back to another gripping episode of the Persian AAR - this chapter has a little bit of everything!

TRACKING REBELLIONS

First, a little bit of "oh, so that's how the game works" - when we left, in 1877, I was musing at the enormous wave of rebellions that was sweeping the world - Russia, for example, was over 92% rebel-controlled,



With two territories (Finland and Ukraine) seceding.

Well, in 1878, I see what eventually happens - the revolting party "enforces its demands"

18787russia.jpg


which means that the ruling party of their choice gets installed, and the number of rebels go way down



(though poor Russia still has 13% of its territory in rebellion).

CRAFTSMEN, O CRAFTSMEN, WHERE ART THOU

In July 1878, I get 'Mechanized Mining' (this lets you build steel factories). As Steel somehow, oddly, has been showing as a primary export, even with _zero_ steel factories, I thought this would have a big impact. Instead, oddly, the capitalists never build a single steel factory. In fact, during this session, I discover many additional factory types, none of which are ever built, even though I have oodles of capitalists. The problem seems to be, as alluded to in earlier posts, that I have a terrible dearth of Crafstmen. Despite having my sole national focus encouraging it, despite giving them a low tax rate, etc., most factories are at around 1/5 capacity, and most are unprofitable. I can see why people complain about 'Laissez Faire' knocking people out of GP status - without subsidies, my industrial score would go way down. By 1887, the end of this chapter, I still have only 2.5% of my populace as craftsmen (and virtually no clerks). I think that what is happening here is that my farmers and laborers are doing so well that they see no reason to switch. About halfway through this session I therefore switch to...

VICTORY VIA ZONING COMISSION

A number of the industrial techs don't just improve factory performance, they also decrease farm size - just a little bit (1%), but this might start to add up. During this session I start to focus on techs that have this behavior, hopeing to 'shake loose' farmers and laborers and get my factories better utilized.

I HAZ POWERS

A big big step for Persia, as in October 1878

187810gp.jpg


I become a great power! The winged lion is truly soaring!

The bad news is, I frankly don't have much of a grand strategic vision here, other than "Death to the Ottoman Empire". I start to gin one up, and here are its elements:

1) As my navy is 40 years behind the rest of Europe's, tiny, and I have no naval base, I decide it's largely a fools errand to start globe-hopping, trying to grab pieces of Africa, the Far East, etc. Even if somehow I could take something, my navy will always be hopelessly inadequate to defending it. Instead, I decide to think of myself as the 'Prussia of Central Asia'.

2) I was bitten in my Mexico game by adding people to my SOI who are far away, as they seem to have a habit of creating nasty diplomatic spats. Almost all of my diplomatic efforts go into bringing neighboring countries into my sphere. The one exception is that my #3 import is Tea, which little Atjeh is the #3 producer of
187810tea.jpg
Note how the UK almost completely dominates the world's tea.

Umm, that's about it - I'm not that deep a thinker :)

In what I doubt is coincidence, now that I'm a GP I start getting CBs - in August 1875, I get a "cut down to size" on little Khiva. Sadly, I have no way to get at them, as Russia denies me military access.

Just 4 months later, in October 1879, I get a really great CB, an "Acquire state" on the Ottoman Empire. However, sadly, the truce still has 3 years to go. (By the time the truce has expired, the CB has vanished - does anybody know how long they are good for)?

GROWING INTO THE NEW ROLE

In July 1880,
18807nile.jpg


intrepid Persian explorers discover the source of the Niile. This nearly doubles my prestige, and moves me from 11th to 5th in world prestige ranking! Prestige, long my weak point, is now my strongest.

In October 1881 Yemen enters my SOI (hey, you gotta start somewhere :)), followed in July 1882 by Afghanistan.

In July 1882, just one month before my truce with the Ottomans expire, I get yet another CB, a "Cut down to size" on Oman. This seems like just the sort of 'lovely little war' a new Great Power should embrace - I decide that even if it means delaying fighting the Ottoman a little while, it's worth it, as I also have a secret hope that maybe if I wait I'll get another "Acquire State" CB on the Ottoman (my infamy is still above 10, BTW).

Accordingly, I take a few months to move troops into position, and in October 1882 I DOW Oman. The war goes rather easily, as it turns out that Oman has no army :).
however, they do have a 2-ship navy that sallies forth. While it is promptly sunk, it inflicts small damage on my ships. I notice months later that the damage is not getting repaired, even when the ships are at port - a quick look through the manual :) reminds me that you need a naval base to repair ships - a port doesn't do it. While, as I said, I'm loath to invest in a big way in the Navy, a single naval base does seem worth it - I invest in the naval tech to do so, and start building one.

In March 1883 I am starting to feel a proper little great power, as Oman accedes to being cut down to size, and Nejd and Atjeh both enter my SOI. Bully, bully :)

It turns out to be a good thing that I didn't DOW the Ottoman, as in April 1883 and again in June 1883 I get hit by hordes of rebels - it takes a few months to stomp it out.

LEARNING FROM HISTORY (A LITTLE)

In May 1883, just two months after entering my SOI, a diplomatic crisis happens with Atjeh. I can either lose prestige and swallow my pride, or DOW Atjeh. One thing I learned from my last game is that, if you do the DOW, it counts as a CB-less DOW. Ouch! I decide that I'd rather lose a little prestige than gain 10 infamy, and let it pass.

YET MORE GROWING INTO THE NEW ROLE

In March 1885, just a bit later, I get yet another CB (it can't be coincidental that I am now getting CB hand over fist, when earlier I hardly ever got one), when little "Dai Nam" gives me a "cut down to size" CB, just as Oman had two years earlier. I would normally be a bit leery taking on Dai Nam with my tiny navy and its tiny transport capability, but as the map shows,

18853dainam.jpg


they are down to just a single territory - China has nearly swallowed them. So I DOW them, load 12K men on my navy, and send it on its way.

The good news is, the fleet makes it there, the 12K men land, Dai Nam, it turns out, also has no army, and by January 1886 they capitulate.

The bad news is, even though I have the fleet turn around and head home as soon as the troops disembark (I eventually disband the expeditionary force - enjoy your new lives in Southeast Asia, fellas!), the navy

18862navysunk.jpg


is sunk by a storm on the way back! The dialog box says "one of our vessels", but no, it's the whole fleet! And this isn't just a fleet, it's the fleet! My entire Navy is no more! Sigh. I start rebuilding it a little, I feel I will probably need at least some navy to project power around the Red Sea and the Persian Gulf.

BACK TO THE CENTRAL FRONT

All this puttering around with Oman, Dai Nam, etc. has been an enjoyable distraction, but a distraction from the main business of the day - ripping off chunks of the Ottoman Empire.

A major step happens here in September 1885 as Iraq secedes! I decide this is one time that Honey is better than Vinegar, and make Iraq my #1 diplomatic priority - by November 1887 they are in my SOI as well.

In June 1886, I've given up waiting for a CB on the Ottoman, and go ahead and DOW them 'normally'. The war goes ridiculously easily, as I conquer my way up to Istanbul without ever seeing a single Turkish soldier - my only (small) battles are against small rebel detachments. The war ends in March 1887 as I take 'Malatya' from the Ottoman, which has the nice effect of severing Syria from the rest of the Ottoman Empire - see the map below:

18873map.jpg


(1) Malatya - my new territory
(2) Iraq
(3) The Ottoman Empire. Given the incredible weakness of the Ottoman, I can't see why nobody else has been chomping them up. Russia and Austria have both been very very quiet for a long time. Shrug.

A DOG THAT HASN'T BARKED (YET)

Devoted readers of this gripping saga may have noticed that I've spent almost no time talking about the domestic situation. This is because, to my surprise, after 50 years, the situation is as below:

188712populace.jpg


1) The populace is still over 80% Conservative. As Aldriq mentions in his post, this is the opposite of what I expected - I'm not sure what's going on here.
2) No social or political reforms have any significant support. I decide to let sleeping reforms lie.
3) As mentioned earlier, I still have only 2.5% craftsmen, sob.

Oh, one 'national decision' I do make - in January 1886 I get the military score needed for 'Military-Industrial complex'. This gives a bonus to military and industrial research (hence the name :)), while penalizing other research. As nearly all my research has been, and probably will continue to be, Military/Industrial, this seems like a reasonable thing to go for.

SO, TO RECAP

So, to recap, the years from 1878 to 1887, have been years of big change:
  • Persia becomes a great power
  • I 'cut down to size' Oman and Dai Nam
  • Yemen, Afghanistan, Abu Dhabi, Nejd, and Iraq enter my SOI
  • I grab another territory from the Ottoman

ENDING ON A CLIFFHANGER

So there we are in November 1887, when from out of nowhere, Spain, of all places, DOWs me. Spain has a large and scary list of allies: Russia (gulp), the UK (double gulp), Netherlands, and Portugal. I reap the benefits of being below Bad Boy, and 50 years of sucking up to Russia and the UK, as they both dishonor the alliance (whew!), however Netherlands and Portugal go along.

This is making me quite glad I have no territory that isn't reachable by land, as these three western powers are leaps and bounds beyond me in naval power. It'll be interesting to see what happens - here's the diplomatic map of the region.

188712map.jpg


Solid Green is Persia.
Light green is my SOI
Blue is where I have a truce.
Salmon is where I have a CB (I just figured this out :))
Red is my foe, the Spanish.

Until next time!
 
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