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Captain
Jan 11, 2006
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bunkerarchaeology.net
Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?

How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

cheers,

kilolima
 
Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?
Why do you think it is not? :)
I have enjoyed HOI2 more than ever using the new map. Also I know lot of people asking for a new map with more provinces.

How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

cheers,

kilolima
An hexagonal map? No, not for me Thanks, may be all right for a board game, but not for a game like HOI2. All provinces the same? would make a very drab and unreal

Cheers
 
Maybe he means that over 4,000 new provinced are bit too much, making the map too complex. At least I didn't enjoy HoI3 because it simply was too complex game, and managing tens of thousands of provinces was painful.
But I guess 4,000 new aren't too much, as 10 000 could be... At least I don't say anything before I've tested it. But I'd like to ask why haven't you completely redrawn map, I mean also coastal lines. They aren't too realistcic in original HoI2.
 
The team wants show a map the most realistic possible, and at same time, the most playable and funny to play.

With a lot of real information (cities, regions, provinces,...)

And adapt all these to events, countries, revolts.txt,...

Realism and playability
 
Maybe he means that over 4,000 new provinced are bit too much, making the map too complex. At least I didn't enjoy HoI3 because it simply was too complex game, and managing tens of thousands of provinces was painful.
But I guess 4,000 new aren't too much, as 10 000 could be... At least I don't say anything before I've tested it. But I'd like to ask why haven't you completely redrawn map, I mean also coastal lines. They aren't too realistcic in original HoI2.

The team continued with hoi2 style, but change this is not complicated, the only problem is the time (I will do some proves but I can't promise nothing :) )
 
Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?

How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

cheers,

kilolima

Having too few provinces made the game quite unrealistic. I posted this in another thread but it's applicable here about the effect that the low province number in China had on that theater.
In HOI2, China, (warlords included) has 114 provinces. This is a lot, but it’s far less than Western Russia (Barbarossa scenario 188 provinces.) The main problem is the province density. A province in HOI represents the area that one division can control, effectively deny another from operating in and come together to form a coherent defense In WW2, with good infrastructure and the right terrain, a single division could control a huge area and remain an intact fighting formation. Bad roads and infrastructure made this area smaller as divisional assets had to stay closer to be mutually supporting. Large local populations also made this area smaller as the division had to be more careful of partisans and had to guard more targets.

Bearing this in mind, the HOI map is not granular enough for China. Zhejiang province in Eastern China is represented by four HOI 2 provinces. This is less than Denmark despite being having over twice the size, 10 times more population and far more historic combat during the period.

Where this has real consequences is in defense. It's perfectly historical that there might 30+ Chinese divisions in an area the size of those 4 provinces. What's not historical is that the defenders could support each other over an area that large, which is what the superstack represents, divisions fighting together as a cohesive army. Two divisions in China could be 20 km apart as the crow flies but a week apart in travel time, yet those same divisions will instantly become a mutually supporting stack if their province is attacked. The province size makes Chinese defending superstacks possible.

Worse, the Japanese can advance as a single cohesive wave with no holes. Even with a million troops on the ground, they couldn't hope to maintain a coherent front and they didn't try. All they could effectively control were the cities and the rails between them with periodic sweeps into the vastly larger countryside. They even had a name for it. It was called “points and lines.” Whole Chinese armies, almost 500,000 nationalist troops and over a million communist ones were stationed behind Japanese lines when the war ended. With the current size Japanese strategy is just “invincible blob.” There is no risk of Japanese spearheads becoming dispersed and vulnerable to encirclement. There is no representation of how much of an obstruction even small amounts intervening terrain were to command and coordination once they got away from the rails. Hell, the provinces are too big to even represent the rails. Historically, the Japanese could and did win victories all across the front but still had to leave huge amounts of real estate unoccupied and full of Chinese troops.
 
True Porkman, but lots and lots of lots of provinces leads to a huge micromanagement nightmare.

That does not say I won't look into IC when it's released.
 
Well, it won't be like HOI3, i.e. with 10k of provinces. IC doesn't have the automation options HOI3 has, so they can't really go HOI3-way. I agree, however, that many provinces often mean micromanagement hell and I will be glad to know if DH cuts the required micro, considering the fact that IC will be playable with DH.
 
Appreciated game mates: I am new within these forums, and in general terms still a beginner playing our Hearts of Iron entertainment jewels... :D. Therefore (and in order to make me a better evaluation concerning the PROVINCES ISSUE), can somebody detail me the following :confused: :

Number of provinces of the following maps:

Hearts of Iron I
Hearts of Iron II
HoI II Doomsday
HoI II Armageddon
Arsenal of Democracy
Darkest Hour (tentatively...)
Iron Cross (tentatively...)
Hearts of Iron III

Thanks in advance guys :rolleyes:
 
In addition to what Cybvep said, I think with original Hoi2 there were around 2,300 land provinces, and Hoi1 had around 1,800. There are just estimates however, just to beaq in mind.
 
DH - less than 3000
IC - around 4000
HOI3 - around 10000

Sorry, Iron Cross have +4000 new provinces, total provinces = 6600 :)

And I repeat, I can assure you that you will not have problems to administrate the provinces
 
Thank you very much for your answers, now I can make me a better idea concerning the development that the game map has made during these last years of HoI Europa engine... :cool: I am very excited about both new releases, DH and IC. For sure they will give us many hours and days of good strategy. :rofl:
 
I think DH has some 4000 provinces.

I also think (from what I've seen), that DH's map looks much better since the borders look almost exactly like in real life, and all the various major border changes from 1914 to 1964 as well as many historical frontline changes are very well drawn.

Then again, I'm yet to see Europe in IC.

PS. Please include N.Europe as well in the screenshot. :)
 
Oh, quick question...
For the AoD version of IC, will you keep the infrastructure system ? If so, will you lower the cost of it ?

Yes, cost half, but the size will be reduced

For the next screen, we will put a europe screen ;)
 
Can't wait to see the map of Europe from IC! DH map disappointed me with their province size/naming/position but I liked their realistic coastlines, dotted border concept and distance calculator. :eek: ;)

Porkman's idea regarding how provinces should be made is really neat - I hope once I will see such a map design implemented together with DH's real distance calculation.
Would really like to get hold of finished Clio's map since it is the most elaborate and precise work done on any map up to now. But that is supposedly far away from being released to public.

IC team, have you done anything regarding real distance calculation like DH team did or you haven't addressed that issue?
 
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