+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 31

Thread: Why so many provinces?!

  1. #1

    Why so many provinces?!

    Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?

    How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

    cheers,

    kilolima

  2. #2
    New Nations Freak Daboo's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonEuropa Universalis 3Hearts of Iron IIIIron Cross
    Victoria: Revolutions

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,695
    Quote Originally Posted by kilolima View Post
    Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?
    Why do you think it is not?
    I have enjoyed HOI2 more than ever using the new map. Also I know lot of people asking for a new map with more provinces.

    Quote Originally Posted by kilolima View Post
    How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

    cheers,

    kilolima
    An hexagonal map? No, not for me Thanks, may be all right for a board game, but not for a game like HOI2. All provinces the same? would make a very drab and unreal

    Cheers

    A New HOI2 Expansion


  3. #3
    Old Guard Miihkali's Avatar
    Darkest Hour

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Suomen tasavalta - Republiken Finland - Финляндская Республика - Finlândiä Respublikası - Republic of Finland
    Posts
    2,822
    Maybe he means that over 4,000 new provinced are bit too much, making the map too complex. At least I didn't enjoy HoI3 because it simply was too complex game, and managing tens of thousands of provinces was painful.
    But I guess 4,000 new aren't too much, as 10 000 could be... At least I don't say anything before I've tested it. But I'd like to ask why haven't you completely redrawn map, I mean also coastal lines. They aren't too realistcic in original HoI2.
    Mikael "Miihkali" Tuominen — Darkest Hour - a 1914-1963 grand strategy game

    Hyborian Age Mod — a DH fantasy mod set in the world of Conan the Barbarian.

    Check out my AAR: USSR + USA vs. world: Superpowers gone wild II.

    See me conquering Asia - as Afghanistan! (Also recruiting existed, back to good ol' 2007.)

  4. #4
    Ingeniero del HoI2 quintelosky's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonIron Cross

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Испания северо-западная
    Posts
    2,739
    Blog Entries
    1
    The team wants show a map the most realistic possible, and at same time, the most playable and funny to play.

    With a lot of real information (cities, regions, provinces,...)

    And adapt all these to events, countries, revolts.txt,...

    Realism and playability

    A New HOI2 Expansion


    El perfeccionamiento traza caminos rectos; pero los torcidos y sin perfeccionar son los caminos del genio.

    Improvement makes straight roads; but the crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius

  5. #5
    Ingeniero del HoI2 quintelosky's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonIron Cross

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Испания северо-западная
    Posts
    2,739
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Miihkali View Post
    Maybe he means that over 4,000 new provinced are bit too much, making the map too complex. At least I didn't enjoy HoI3 because it simply was too complex game, and managing tens of thousands of provinces was painful.
    But I guess 4,000 new aren't too much, as 10 000 could be... At least I don't say anything before I've tested it. But I'd like to ask why haven't you completely redrawn map, I mean also coastal lines. They aren't too realistcic in original HoI2.
    The team continued with hoi2 style, but change this is not complicated, the only problem is the time (I will do some proves but I can't promise nothing )

    A New HOI2 Expansion


    El perfeccionamiento traza caminos rectos; pero los torcidos y sin perfeccionar son los caminos del genio.

    Improvement makes straight roads; but the crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius

  6. #6
    Lt. General Porkman's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: Armageddon

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Taipei, Taiwan
    Posts
    1,642
    Quote Originally Posted by kilolima View Post
    Why do developers think that 4,000 provinces will be fun?

    How about ditching the province abstraction altogether, now that computers are fast enough to not need those limits, and just use a hex field instead? Every province can be a hex. Not every hex needs to have significance, only a subset that will contain cities or resources.

    cheers,

    kilolima
    Having too few provinces made the game quite unrealistic. I posted this in another thread but it's applicable here about the effect that the low province number in China had on that theater.
    In HOI2, China, (warlords included) has 114 provinces. This is a lot, but it’s far less than Western Russia (Barbarossa scenario 188 provinces.) The main problem is the province density. A province in HOI represents the area that one division can control, effectively deny another from operating in and come together to form a coherent defense In WW2, with good infrastructure and the right terrain, a single division could control a huge area and remain an intact fighting formation. Bad roads and infrastructure made this area smaller as divisional assets had to stay closer to be mutually supporting. Large local populations also made this area smaller as the division had to be more careful of partisans and had to guard more targets.

    Bearing this in mind, the HOI map is not granular enough for China. Zhejiang province in Eastern China is represented by four HOI 2 provinces. This is less than Denmark despite being having over twice the size, 10 times more population and far more historic combat during the period.

    Where this has real consequences is in defense. It's perfectly historical that there might 30+ Chinese divisions in an area the size of those 4 provinces. What's not historical is that the defenders could support each other over an area that large, which is what the superstack represents, divisions fighting together as a cohesive army. Two divisions in China could be 20 km apart as the crow flies but a week apart in travel time, yet those same divisions will instantly become a mutually supporting stack if their province is attacked. The province size makes Chinese defending superstacks possible.

    Worse, the Japanese can advance as a single cohesive wave with no holes. Even with a million troops on the ground, they couldn't hope to maintain a coherent front and they didn't try. All they could effectively control were the cities and the rails between them with periodic sweeps into the vastly larger countryside. They even had a name for it. It was called “points and lines.” Whole Chinese armies, almost 500,000 nationalist troops and over a million communist ones were stationed behind Japanese lines when the war ended. With the current size Japanese strategy is just “invincible blob.” There is no risk of Japanese spearheads becoming dispersed and vulnerable to encirclement. There is no representation of how much of an obstruction even small amounts intervening terrain were to command and coordination once they got away from the rails. Hell, the provinces are too big to even represent the rails. Historically, the Japanese could and did win victories all across the front but still had to leave huge amounts of real estate unoccupied and full of Chinese troops.
    I realized that the purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure poor reasoning, and inhibit clarity. -- Calvin

    China's AARight to be Hostile - A different way for the Guomindang (Ongoing, ....slowly) Updated: 5/23
    Proud Recipient of a Lord Strange Cookie of British Awesomeness
    Armageddon Consolidated China Improvement Pack

  7. #7
    True Porkman, but lots and lots of lots of provinces leads to a huge micromanagement nightmare.

    That does not say I won't look into IC when it's released.

  8. #8
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    8,245
    Well, it won't be like HOI3, i.e. with 10k of provinces. IC doesn't have the automation options HOI3 has, so they can't really go HOI3-way. I agree, however, that many provinces often mean micromanagement hell and I will be glad to know if DH cuts the required micro, considering the fact that IC will be playable with DH.

  9. #9
    Sergeant DSA's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonDarkest HourFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossSemper Fi

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    88

    Question

    Appreciated game mates: I am new within these forums, and in general terms still a beginner playing our Hearts of Iron entertainment jewels... . Therefore (and in order to make me a better evaluation concerning the PROVINCES ISSUE), can somebody detail me the following :

    Number of provinces of the following maps:

    Hearts of Iron I
    Hearts of Iron II
    HoI II Doomsday
    HoI II Armageddon
    Arsenal of Democracy
    Darkest Hour (tentatively...)
    Iron Cross (tentatively...)
    Hearts of Iron III

    Thanks in advance guys

  10. #10
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    8,245
    Darkest Hour (tentatively...)
    Iron Cross (tentatively...)
    Hearts of Iron III
    DH - less than 3000
    IC - around 4000
    HOI3 - around 10000

  11. #11
    Sergeant Hazzaj's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyCrusader Kings IIDarkest HourEU3 CompleteDivine Wind
    Heir to the ThroneVictoria 2

    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Lancaster, England
    Posts
    52
    In addition to what Cybvep said, I think with original Hoi2 there were around 2,300 land provinces, and Hoi1 had around 1,800. There are just estimates however, just to beaq in mind.

  12. #12
    Ingeniero del HoI2 quintelosky's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonIron Cross

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Испания северо-западная
    Posts
    2,739
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Cybvep View Post
    DH - less than 3000
    IC - around 4000
    HOI3 - around 10000
    Sorry, Iron Cross have +4000 new provinces, total provinces = 6600

    And I repeat, I can assure you that you will not have problems to administrate the provinces

    A New HOI2 Expansion


    El perfeccionamiento traza caminos rectos; pero los torcidos y sin perfeccionar son los caminos del genio.

    Improvement makes straight roads; but the crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius

  13. #13
    Lt. General Beleg32's Avatar
    HoI AnthologyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonCommander: Conquest of the AmericasEuropa Universalis 3Galactic Assault
    Lead and GoldThe Kings CrusadeEuropa Universalis: RomeRome GoldShip Simulator Extremes
    Mount & Blade: Warband500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Somewhere in the Midlands
    Posts
    1,515
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by quintelosky View Post
    Sorry, Iron Cross have +4000 new provinces, total provinces = 6600

    And I repeat, I can assure you that you will not have problems to administrate the provinces
    Very impressive, gonna be lot of fun playing on such a big map
    'Darkest Hour', a 1914-1964 Grand Strategy Game

    32? Oh.... whyyy... 69 is much a nicer sounding number...

  14. #14
    Sergeant DSA's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyHearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonDarkest HourFor the MotherlandHearts of Iron III
    HOI3: Their Finest HourIron CrossSemper Fi

    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    88

    Thumbs up

    Thank you very much for your answers, now I can make me a better idea concerning the development that the game map has made during these last years of HoI Europa engine... I am very excited about both new releases, DH and IC. For sure they will give us many hours and days of good strategy.

  15. #15
    Oh, quick question...
    For the AoD version of IC, will you keep the infrastructure system ? If so, will you lower the cost of it ?

  16. #16
    Lt. General Fulmen's Avatar
    Crusader Kings IIEU3 CompleteVictoria 2Mount & Blade: WarbandMount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
    War of the Roses500k clubEuropa Universalis IV: Pre-orderEUIV: Call to arms eventWar of the Vikings

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Helsinki, Finlandia-Vel-Finningia Olim Regnum
    Posts
    1,627
    I think DH has some 4000 provinces.

    I also think (from what I've seen), that DH's map looks much better since the borders look almost exactly like in real life, and all the various major border changes from 1914 to 1964 as well as many historical frontline changes are very well drawn.

    Then again, I'm yet to see Europe in IC.

    PS. Please include N.Europe as well in the screenshot.

  17. #17
    Ingeniero del HoI2 quintelosky's Avatar
    Hearts of Iron 2: ArmageddonIron Cross

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Испания северо-западная
    Posts
    2,739
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by CyBSKhan View Post
    Oh, quick question...
    For the AoD version of IC, will you keep the infrastructure system ? If so, will you lower the cost of it ?
    Yes, cost half, but the size will be reduced

    For the next screen, we will put a europe screen

    A New HOI2 Expansion


    El perfeccionamiento traza caminos rectos; pero los torcidos y sin perfeccionar son los caminos del genio.

    Improvement makes straight roads; but the crooked roads without improvement are roads of genius

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by quintelosky View Post
    Yes, cost half, but the size will be reduced
    Sorry, I must ask again, cost half compared to the new patch where it's twice faster but cost twice much, or cost half compared to before 1.5 patch ?
    Also what do you mean by a reducing the size ?

  19. #19
    Field Marshal Cybvep's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Poland
    Posts
    8,245
    Quote Originally Posted by CyBSKhan View Post
    Sorry, I must ask again, cost half compared to the new patch where it's twice faster but cost twice much, or cost half compared to before 1.5 patch ?
    Also what do you mean by a reducing the size ?
    Size reduction will most likely mean that you get 0.05 infra, not 0.1 with one completed "building".

  20. #20
    Lt. General Hister's Avatar
    Arsenal of DemocracyEU3 CompleteDivine WindHeir to the ThroneSengoku
    Sword of the Stars IIVictoria 2Mount & Blade: Warband500k clubEuropa Universalis IV

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Adriatic coast
    Posts
    1,654
    Can't wait to see the map of Europe from IC! DH map disappointed me with their province size/naming/position but I liked their realistic coastlines, dotted border concept and distance calculator.

    Porkman's idea regarding how provinces should be made is really neat - I hope once I will see such a map design implemented together with DH's real distance calculation.
    Would really like to get hold of finished Clio's map since it is the most elaborate and precise work done on any map up to now. But that is supposedly far away from being released to public.

    IC team, have you done anything regarding real distance calculation like DH team did or you haven't addressed that issue?
    Last edited by Hister; 21-09-2010 at 23:40.
    Lose your honour on these forums and I'll make you commit seppuku

    Go check out my AoD CORE 0.60 AAR!

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts