The Presidents: The Vietnam War Edition

[Kurt_Steiner]

Kurt_Steiner: Well, you could spare Joe Kennedy, Jr. Then again, I didn't spare him. I simply changed the circumstances of his death and had Joe Jr. die a different way.

I have an soft spot about Joe Jr, so don't tell me that twice...

[H.Appleby]

I have an soft spot about Joe Jr, so don't tell me that twice...

Save Glenn Miller please!

[Kurt_Steiner]

Save Glenn Miller please!

He wasn't even in the list of those fated to die, so just guess what I'll do about him.

Just to clarify: he's not going to be boarding a plane.

[H.Appleby]

Anyway, great update about British politics. I'm really looking forward to another series of excellent election updates Nathan!

[Andreios II]

Excellent update about the transfer of power! The contrast between the American model of choosing a successor, and that of Britain's in this period is really well shown here. Dealing with the fineries of changing leader in one sentence rather than several pages xD I can never remember when the UK elections take place in TTL, so that re-cap was very useful to order to political process in my mind.

I think that Butler, knowing how 'dangerous' Macmillan could be as well as Eden did, would keep him in the Foreign Office because at least then there's always the chance to send him off on an 'important diplomatic mission'. I don't necessarily think that a lack of Suez Crisis will actually do anything different for how Britain approaches decolonisation. As early as 1954 cabinet documents admitted that native nationalism could only be held back for so long before it became irresistible. A lot of the OTL independences that occurred under Macmillan were well underway with Eden and even Churchill. In Ghana and Malaya for example, plans for independence were in progress long before Suez. The common attribution of Suez to starting the 'End of Empire' is a bit too simplistic. I can still see Macmillan giving the 'Wind of Change' speech in Cape Town, just not as Prime Minister.

On the subject of the Middle East, I can see it taking the same route that the newly independent colonies took OTL (and probs this one too!). Britain hoped that they could retain 'informal' influence over their ex-colonies after granting them independence, but a good deal of them tried to distance themselves from any concrete involvement (Malaya was hoped to join SEATO but they didn't). The UK may hope to retain influence of this sort over the Middle Eastern states, but they'l start to pull away sooner or later as they form their own agreements and Britain's capacity for influence declines.

[Dr. Gonzo]

snip

Good points on decolonisation, but I meant more that Suez had a decent effect on how natives, particularly the educated elites saw British power, I dunno perhaps it gives the UK more leverage when leaving? On 'informal influence' however no Suez I think will lead Britain to getting a bit darker towards keeping those new states in its sphere. MI6 offered alot of nasty services to Middle East autocrats in return for oil deals and naval bases. Leo Amery's son Julian was apparently a favourite of the Omani Sultan for his 'psychological techniques' towards dissidents.

Suez not happening also fails to break the gunboat system. Britain pulled gunboat diplomacy in Guyana in 1954, no one cared, we were going to pull it in Iran in 1951 but espionage and bribing street thugs worked instead, without Suez I dare say the next flashpoint in Empire might see a less cautious Britain - Iraq being the obvious one

[Nathan Madien]

Kurt_Steiner: You must be a kinder man than I when it comes to the Kennedys.

H.Appleby: Due to the early end of World War Two in Europe, Glenn Miller doesn't die in 1944 and is still alive in 1960.

That should brighten someone's day.

Kurt_Steiner: Oh...he's talking to you. I thought he was talking to me.

H.Appleby: Thank you. Wait until you see the next update title. Anyone who watches Japanese animation will probably understand it.

Andreios II: Thank you very much for your advice.

Reading about how the British choose their Prime Ministers I thought was fasinating. The fact that Prime Ministers have to "kiss hands" with the reigning monarch as a custom I thought was interesting.

The UK elections all come from the US/UK Election Mod I am using. For some reason, the alternate elections all take place in US election years with the exception of the 1961 election (which I will mention and will use to get Margaret Thatcher into Parliament).

How about Butler sending Macmillan to the United States as the UK Ambassador?

I do plan to continue the decolonization effort but I was thinking about slowing it down so we don't get all these new countries all at once. For instance, in my next update I ended the Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya and had Butler delay Kenyan independence until the mid-1960s on the grounds of "law and order". Instead of 1963, I am thinking about giving Kenya independence in 1965 or 1966.

Ah, yes. The Middle East. The great "what should I do here" region. With Egypt in the pro-West sphere and the British maintaining control over Iran and to a lesser extent Iraq, the region is quiet from a writers' block standpoint.

Dr. Gonzo: Well, if British foriegn policy is being run by Draco, visits by a couple paratroopers should set everything straight.

[H.Appleby]

Well, I can begin to forgive the lack of a TTZ in this timeline if it means that we get sixteen plus years more of Glenn Miller music. Anyway, I only watch Hetalia so I won't get it most likely. In any event, will we get any more Kefauver or Stevenson cameos? In terms of Africa, I'd think that the delayed independence of various British colonies and the apparent suppression of nationalism TTL may make the British have an easier time in Africa TTL. If the Congo's independence goes the same way it did OTL, though that was partially a result of the other anti-colonial movements; that may make decolonisation an even less enticing prospect.

[Kurt_Steiner]

Kurt_Steiner: You must be a kinder man than I when it comes to the Kennedys.

Yes. Mom taught me to do so...

Dr. Gonzo: Well, if British foriegn policy is being run by Draco, visits by a couple paratroopers should set everything straight.

The gunboat policy update to modern times...

[hoi2geek]

Just promise me that we'll see an independent Biafra that survives to the present-day. I really want to see this happening in the AAR

[Nathan Madien]

H.Appleby: I see I found a way to get back onto your good side.

Well, the anime reference has more to do with the Japanese love for episode titles than any particular anime. Think of it as a parody.

I haven't decided yet on Kefauver. As for Stevenson, I can't really do much with him since I killed him off.

Kurt_Steiner: I see.

The gunboat policy...it should be "airdrop policy". Drop certain paratroopers and let them do all the talking.

hoi2geek: We'll see what happens.

[H.Appleby]

... As for Stevenson, I can't really do much with him since I killed him off.

*Humiliated Expression* So no speech at the UN then.... Erm, yeah; I forgot one of the most dramatic events in this AAR so far. Sorry.

[Nathan Madien]

H.Appleby: *pats you on the back* It's okay. That was six years ago storywise.

[Xie]

Hey Nathan. If you were to do an epilogue to this or a MDS followup, can you please, please salvage the ending of Mass Effect 3? Make someone intervene in the game's development. I can't stand the game's ending as it is.

[Nathan Madien]

Xie: Is it really that bad?

[Xie]

Xie: Is it really that bad?

Yes, it is. Game was awesome until the last 5mins. There's even a Facebook group founded to demand the game to be changed.


It got 18,000 followers in 5-days. The rate that it's growing is similar to the "down with dictator x" facebook pages that organized the Arab Spring protests.

[H.Appleby]

I have to say an MDS followup to this would be fascinating, especially with your frankly insane attention to detail and realism. I'm actually beginning to think that Stevenson and Willkie were actually president.

[Nathan Madien]

Xie: Gotta love protestors.

H.Appleby: If I ever do an MDS AAR, it will be as a stand-alone. It would be way too much work to mod MDS to fit my universe.

Same thing with an 1914 AAR. I would make that a stand-alone and not worry about trying to link it up with my first Presidents AAR.

Thank you for the compliment. I am almost done writing the next update.

[Xie]

Still, will you have the ME3 protests be successful? Or hell, have Bioware write a different ending.

[Nathan Madien]

Xie: We will see. I mean, it's way off into the future. I am barely into 1960 after all.