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lucaluca

lucaluca

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I hope they will include naval warfare this time around, it was rather important for the Italian Maritime Republics, Normans, Byzantines and Arabs.
They could include just a few ship types (3-4).
I love the character system but i hope to focus on it it will not mean to totally neglect warfare, trade/economics and politics... They were totally absent from CKI.
 
I to would like to see this, and I really disliked the idea that I could transport tens of thousands of crusaders over the ocean but the ships could not "see" each other?
 
Yeah, I think you should need transports as opposed to everything being automated, as I believe was the case in the original game.

I'm sure the naval aspect of the game will be similar to in V2, which for the period probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Austen
 
So long as there's not many ship types, I think it'll be fine. Naval Warfare wasn't a big thing in the middle ages.
 
LouisXI said:
So long as there's not many ship types, I think it'll be fine. Naval Warfare wasn't a big thing in the middle ages.
Click to expand...

mmmhhh it actually was, especially for the Byzantines and the Arabs... The Arabs seiged Constantinople twice with huge fleets and were defeated.
The crusades without the naval supremacy of Venice and Genoa wouldn't even had been possible. And naval trade was also important in the Eastern Mediterranean sea, one of the reasons of the rise of Venice and decline of Byzantium.

Anyways in CKI naval warfare and trade were totally absent, I think that's unacceptable for CKII.
Not to mention the Saracens able to go and conquer Britain and Russia... that was a bit ridiculous:p
 
I hope a part of building ships, which means you can also use the ports for trade.. and with that I hope there are trade paths leading to and from your part with tiny ships going along those paths to represent trade, the more the ships the more trade your port gets.
 
I really liked the simplified transport/navy system in CK1 since I think that dicking around with transports to deal with rebellious provinces is one of the worst parts of Paradox games. You could do what Firaxis is doing with civ 5 and add Military warships but letting land units automatically transform into transport ships if they enter the sea. The war ships would then be able to attack the transports so you'd need to defend them, but you wouldn't have to move your transport fleet from Iceland or such just to deal with rebellious Cretan nobles. I think that'd be a nice compromise, since I rather enjoy the naval combat part of Paradox games, it's just the transporting that's horrible.
 
Kainser said:
I really liked the simplified transport/navy system in CK1 since I think that dicking around with transports to deal with rebellious provinces is one of the worst parts of Paradox games. You could do what Firaxis is doing with civ 5 and add Military warships but letting land units automatically transform into transport ships if they enter the sea. The war ships would then be able to attack the transports so you'd need to defend them, but you wouldn't have to move your transport fleet from Iceland or such just to deal with rebellious Cretan nobles. I think that'd be a nice compromise, since I rather enjoy the naval combat part of Paradox games, it's just the transporting that's horrible.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a brilliant idea. I completely back this idea.


However, i think you'd need slightly more than 4 or 5 different types of warships. 9 at the very least. This is because of the differences between Northern, Christian Mediterranean, and Arab vessel types. Hell, you might even want to add some special ship types for the Byzantines. That's assuming you go with Small, Medium, Large. This differentiation is because North Sea naval warfare was much different from Mediterranean warfare. Northern naval warfare was sail-based, and didn't have the ramming that happened in Mediterranean naval warfare.
 
Historically speaking, transporting was horrible. It's sort of the reason the Fourth Crusade went the way it did. Cost way too much money and the Doge of Venice took advantage of the crusaders' debt and had them pillage the Byzantines. That said, I hope that transporting remains expensive, but a quicker solution than marching. Oh, and it'd also be nice if it wouldn't charge you fees based upon the distance of your target, but rather based upon how far you have traveled, that way the target can be changed without making the payment all over again. Oh, and perhaps you could only use ships from provinces with harbors, that way Genoa, Venice, etc. are made as prominent as they were historically.
 
lucaluca said:
mmmhhh it actually was, especially for the Byzantines and the Arabs... The Arabs seiged Constantinople twice with huge fleets and were defeated.
The crusades without the naval supremacy of Venice and Genoa wouldn't even had been possible. And naval trade was also important in the Eastern Mediterranean sea, one of the reasons of the rise of Venice and decline of Byzantium.

Anyways in CKI naval warfare and trade were totally absent, I think that's unacceptable for CKII.
Not to mention the Saracens able to go and conquer Britain and Russia... that was a bit ridiculous:p
Click to expand...

The Byzantines are one of the sole exceptions to this. Compared to ages to come, naval warfare is of absolutely little importance compared to land warfare. You can't add a complex naval system simply for the Byzantines and eastern trade. I'm not saying it should be as simplistic as CK's, but asking for too many ship types in an era where there were hardly any ship types is ahistorical.

That being said, 3 ship types seems sufficient.
 
I'm gonna try to come up with the smallest number of ship types I can. I'm assuming we want at least 2 different "Sizes" of ships, because building the largest ship was, later in the game, very important to prestige.

Longboat (Was the main warship in the north until the Cog came about in late-game)
Cog (Mid to late-game ship)
Caravel (Very expensive, requires large shipyards, adds prestige)
Galley
... um, war galley? Afaik, they didn't come up with a 'different' style of warship in the mediterranean until the broadside Man'o'War, they just had bigger and bigger galleys.

So that's 5 ships. That seem sufficient to you guys?
 
Naval warfare is extremely complicated in this period and good luck to PI with how they try and represent this in game.

Ship to ship combat was rare, since it only occured if both sides were commited to battle; it was easy for one to escape the other. One thing I would like to see is a representation of the technological development during the period, for the first crusade transport of large numbers of men, and particularly horses, over long distances wasnt possible, but by the 3rd and 4th crusades it was a reality and became an increasily more feasible option over time.

I also probably wouldnt want to need to construct indivual ships either, rather have the size of the fleet dircectly related to the size of the maritime trading fleet.
 
Saying naval warfare was non-existent or of little significance during this period would be wrong; it's simply a case that it operated on a far different scale and in a very different manner.

The main problem here is that almost no full-time, professional navies existed. During wartime a handful of ships may have been ordered by the king (and occasionally the nobles would donate a few) whereas the rest - the vast majority - would be merchant vessels quickly seized by the Crown.

There are literally dozens of examples of naval conflicts during the Middle Ages, but they're simply not well known. For example, Edward IV of England conducted a full-scale naval war against the Hanseatic league which involved numerous large fleets fighting in the North Sea.

You can look here for a rough list of conflicts, though it's fairly slapdash as lists go.

As for automated transport - it's a horrible idea unless it's strictly controlled by naval techs (which I doubt, as the game is not focused around technology as V2 is) as it will result in a lot of completely implausible naval transport. You should have to build a transport fleet if you want to transport your men to fight in foreign lands; that's the way it was done because it needed to be done. Just having your men march into the sea and it's all done for them is a bad idea.

Austen
 
Austen said:
As for automated transport - it's a horrible idea unless it's strictly controlled by naval techs (which I doubt, as the game is not focused around technology as V2 is) as it will result in a lot of completely implausible naval transport. You should have to build a transport fleet if you want to transport your men to fight in foreign lands; that's the way it was done because it needed to be done. Just having your men march into the sea and it's all done for them is a bad idea.
Click to expand...

i absolutely agree. In CK1 sending troops by see costs money, but was by far from impossible for player and AI.
So if you want to crusade, you embarked you troop in Southmpton or somewhere in Denmark and.. puf! they disembarked in Alexandria.
An historical nonsense!
Which also caused some well known Seljucid enclave in the baltic coast or in Ireland.. (the AI retaliates)
If the king of England want to crusade, he has to cross the whole europe an balcans OR reach a port on the Adriatic sea, and have money and good relation with Venice for having his troop embarked.

As posted above, a lot of warfare between Italian Republics (Pisa, Genoa, Venice) was naval warfare, destroying each other ships to have the control of the commercial routes in the mediterranean sea.

Oh yes: I wish to have coastal CoT based on naval power (tech & number of ship) of the country. So Venice has all the interest to kick Byzantine ass (4th crusade..) for taking the control of eastern routes
 
Austen said:
Yeah, I think you should need transports as opposed to everything being automated, as I believe was the case in the original game.

I'm sure the naval aspect of the game will be similar to in V2, which for the period probably wouldn't be a bad thing.

Austen
Click to expand...

In CK1 there were no ships. In order to cross seas you had to pay a fee dependent upon the size of your army and the distance you wished to travel. Then your army would change to a little ship as it crossed the sea. No ships could engage in combat, you could not defend your coasts.

It was a major weakness and I really hope to sea navies in the new game. It could be fun to fight the Brabary Pirates from Sicily, secure naval dominance as England or use your navy to fight Western Barbarian and Eastern Turk alike as the Romans.
 
Tommy4ever said:
In CK1 there were no ships. In order to cross seas you had to pay a fee dependent upon the size of your army and the distance you wished to travel. Then your army would change to a little ship as it crossed the sea. No ships could engage in combat, you could not defend your coasts.
Click to expand...

It wasn't far off reality though. Just needed to be made seasonal and be given a slightly harder range limitation. Better that system than ahistoric standing fleets.
 
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