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Thread: #4th Tier: Empire

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    Lt. General Jolt's Avatar
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    #4th Tier: Empire

    The Middle Ages is obviously not without Empires. In Medieval Law, usually an Empire was an entity which claimed to be the successor of the Roman Empire. Empires were seen as something above that of Kingdoms, though in CK 1, there was only one true Imperial title, which was the "Emperor of the Byzantine Empire", though this was treated pretty much like a King-tiered title.

    Now this title gave an extra bonus that a regular King title did not, which was having an increased desmesne limit.

    You could also be crowned Holy Roman Emperor by the Pope (By being King of Germany, Burgundy and Italy at the same time or any 5 king titles AND having good relations with the Papal States), but your character would not gain a title, but a trait confirming that it was Emperor. If I'm not mistaken, all that title gave was a Prestige boost.

    Now with CK 2, there is an opportunity to have a 4th tier, which is the Empire itself.

    I wonder which Empires did historically exist during the Middle Ages, and what CK 1 King titles (Kudos to Veldmaarschalk for the map) did they encompass?

    The ones that I can recall are:

    - The Byzantine Empire: a sui generis creation, that is given its own Royal Demesne, going from Albania to Eastern Anatolia which in its full size (discounting owning the whole Roman Empire), was the rightful heir of the whole Eastern Roman Empire, which means it would roughly also encompass Bulgaria, Serbia, Armenia, Syria, Jerusalem and Egypt. Including the Byzantine lands and title itself, 7 King titles would be needed to form this Empire.

    - The Holy Roman Empire: Created in the Carolingian period, and after the partitions of its huge Empire, the Holy Roman Empire settled through the duration of the Middle Ages with the territories under the King titles of Germany, Bohemia, Burgundy and Italy. That would be 4 King titles needed to claim this Empire.

    - The Empire of all Spains: Created in the 9th century, the Spanish Emperors then embarked into the possibility of establishing Iberian Kings and Emirs as their own vassals, and they were highly treated in the Iberian peninsula at least, as having the Imperial Authority to submit Kings. In this case, it encompasses the King titles of Portugal, León, Castille, Aragón and Navarra. That is 5 King titles.

    - The Serbian and Bulgarian Empires: These two were brief empires created by the rulers of the Slav populations which had settled on the borders of the Byzantine Empires and after occupying large tracts of Byzantine European territory, took advantage and increased their legitimacy to that the Imperial tier. Overall, they never managed to overtake enough Byzantine territory to allow them to claim the Byzantine title in CK 1's terms, though the Bulgarian Empire did occupy the territory of Serbia, though that on its own (two King titles) isn't enough in my point of view to make it worthy of having a fourth tier Empire title.


    Possible semi-fantasy Empires:

    - The Great Britain Empire: Using the United Kingdom as a benchmark, anyone who would possess the King titles of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland could suffice to declare a 4th tiered Empire of the Great Britain. This would involve having 4 King titles.

    - The Empire of Scania: Unifying the Nordic King titles (Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland) under a single person would probably suffice for the creation of this Empire. That would be another Empire needing 4 King titles.

    - The Cnutian Empire: Putting the same titles as Cnut the Great under the same person, namely Denmark, Norway, England (and then either Wales and Scotland or just Sweden). That would take 4 or 5 King titles needed to create this Empire.

    I would however be against stacking Imperial titles, like King ones as these were frequently counter-intuitive (Like Holy Roman Emperor and Byzantine Emperor), since many claim the same lands.

    I'm sure there are other real or semi-fantasy Empires that could be viable during this time and I'd like to hear your suggestions.


    Summary of possible Empires and needed King titles:

    - Byzantine Empire: 7 (Byzantine King title (LOL), Armenia, Bulgaria, Egypt, Jerusalem, Serbia and Syria)
    - Holy Roman Empire: 4 (Germany, Burgundy, Bohemia and Italy)
    - Spanish Empire: 5 (Castille, Aragón, León, Navarra, Portugal)
    - British Empire: 4 (England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales)
    - Scandinavian Empire: 4 (Denmark, Finland, Norway and Sweden)
    - Cnutian Empire: 4/5 (Denmark, Norway, England and [Sweden or Scotland and Wales])
    - Islamic Caliphate: 9 (Arabia, Jerusalem, Syria, Mesopotamia, Persia, Egypt, Africa, Armenia and Mauritania)
    - Persian Empire: 5 (Persia, Mesopotamia, Armenia, Syria, Jerusalem)
    Last edited by Jolt; 19-08-2010 at 23:18.
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  2. #2
    Field Marshal Tommy4ever's Avatar
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    In CK1 there was one Empire - the Roman/Byzantine Empire. It got the bonus of the ruler being able to hold twice as much in his demesne as a King. That should be the only Empire.

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    High King (With Opposition) Brian Bóruma's Avatar
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    There were other empires during the game's time period. The Seljuks, The Timurids, the Ottomans, the Irish (for a decade, lol.), the Latin Empire, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bóruma View Post
    There were other empires during the game's time period. The Seljuks, The Timurids, the Ottomans, the Irish (for a decade, lol.), the Latin Empire, etc.
    The Latin Empire and the Ottomans (to a certain degree) were both cases where the Byzantine Imperial title was coopted by another faith.

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    Field Marshal Tommy4ever's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bóruma View Post
    There were other empires during the game's time period. The Seljuks, The Timurids, the Ottomans, the Irish (for a decade, lol.), the Latin Empire, etc.
    There is a big difference between someone who owns a big Empire like the Timurids and the Seljuks and someone who rules as Emperor ....

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    Not really a fascist brony monsterfurby's Avatar
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    I like the idea of having imperial titles as a 4th tier. Why shouldn't there be any empires other than the Byzantine? What would keep an alternate-history king from proclaiming an empire if he can defend it?
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    Lt. General Jolt's Avatar
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    I didn't wrote about the Islamic Empires because my knowledge of them is quite dim. Though yeah, the Latin Empire is for all purposes a Catholic Byzantine Empire.
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  8. #8
    To be honest I don't mind the idea because CK really is the original sandbox game that started them all. It didn't even attempt to model history because the different variables involved are too random.

    Byzantium is the only true empire, this is true. I could see Russia declaring itself an empire rather than a kingdom.

    Other than that it gets iffy. In sandbox terms though if one person holds multiple king titles he should be able to organize his realm. They just need to make sure that this doesn't happen easily.

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    I think the original CK system of a Byzantine bonus and nothing else was good enough.

    I don't know how to represent the king of Bohemia though...
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    High King (With Opposition) Brian Bóruma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saulot View Post
    The Latin Empire and the Ottomans (to a certain degree) were both cases where the Byzantine Imperial title was coopted by another faith.
    I agree, but what mechanically would you do about it? Convert to Byzantines to Catholic and treat the Latin Empire as the same entity?

    I'd recognize the Empire of Nicaea as the Byzantine Empire and have a separate tag for the Latin Empire.


    ..and then there's the issue of Trebizond.
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  11. #11
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    I like the idea of a Fourth tier. For a place like Spain. Maybe not Empire as a default title but a fourth tier. So say I own all the Spanish Titles I can aquire the fourth tier title King of Spain.

    A solution to the multi-empire titles would be that you can only claim one Imperial title, even if you have the lands for multiple titles.

    My theory behind this is that if say the HRE conquered the Byzantine Empire, he wouldn't declare himself Emperor of Byzantium, rather just consider the land part of Rome.

    Or if anything, make a title Emperor of Rome (must encompass 66% of Rome's territory at its peak including Rome. Also via event the title Holy Roman Emperor disapears

    A-historical titles should be in the game because the game loses its historical authenticity very early on. Like when France becomes a one province Kingdom with no vassels. Or the muslims rampage all of Europe (hopefully fixed).

  12. #12
    I think that a fourth tier would be a good idea, if proper implemented. As an alternative, it would be cool if the number of tiers is even moddable. Since tiers represent nothing but an extendable hierarchical measure.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bóruma View Post
    I agree, but what mechanically would you do about it? Convert to Byzantines to Catholic and treat the Latin Empire as the same entity?

    I'd recognize the Empire of Nicaea as the Byzantine Empire and have a separate tag for the Latin Empire.


    ..and then there's the issue of Trebizond.
    Essentially a group of crusaders would take Constantinople and grab the Byz title. Then the Princes in Anatolia and Epirus would rebel. Epirus, Trebizond and Nicaea would all be led by powerful Prince with claims on the Byz title. Simple.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Bóruma View Post
    I agree, but what mechanically would you do about it? Convert to Byzantines to Catholic and treat the Latin Empire as the same entity?

    I'd recognize the Empire of Nicaea as the Byzantine Empire and have a separate tag for the Latin Empire.


    ..and then there's the issue of Trebizond.
    In the CK system, one of them would have the title and the others claims. So, for example, let's say Nicaea ends up with the actual title, then Trebizond, Latin Empire, and perhaps Epirus (I don't remember their status exactly) would have claims to the Byzantine Emperor title.

    It might not be perfect, but I suspect that the ways claims and titles function will be reworked somewhat for the new game. I do think, though, that the "Emperor" title should maintain the prestige and sense of the sacred and implication of Romanity, that it had for medievals.

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    I like the Fourth Tier, but you should have to do something special to get it. Byzantines are obvious. I think claiming HRE should be obvious, although I feel like that would need some special features to really capture. Other than that, I think there would have to be some legitimate claim to the Roman Empire or total hegemony. Like you would have to have the most prestige, high relations with the Church, success with Crusades, and have some title like Defender of the Faith. Then, if you satisfy a King number requirement, you can claim it. Even better: some claim to be Roman in some capacity (including relationship with Byzantine Emperor if E. Orthodox maybe?) or control Rome, successful freeing of the Holy Land, controlling Constantinople...

    Something like that. Then you gain additional prestige, a slightly increased demesne limit (not the same as Byzantine), and more manpower or something.

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    Takeda retainer Demi Moderator Chaingun's Avatar
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    This is something I'd like to see myself, but I'd guess this has already been decided on in the initial game design and we cannot influence it much by now.

    Anyway: It could work rather nicely as to integrate the special case Byzantium and provde a similar mechanic for anyone who controls multiple king titles. Becoming an empire should be that final objective if you're already king of >= 3 rather large countries or something like that.

    West and East Roman empires, some muslim "empires", and perhaps the mongols are some candidates for a fourth tier? Add some fictional but plausible ones to that and you got perhaps 7-10 possible empire titles, enough to make a tier 4 worthwhile.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaingun View Post
    West and East Roman empires, some muslim "empires", and perhaps the mongols are some candidates for a fourth tier?
    For Muslims it could be claims to the Caliphate, which might be roughly analogous to Christians claiming the Roman Imperium.

  18. #18
    Buckler of Wales Drachenfire's Avatar
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    I'm in favor of a 4th tier, maybe user defined modable?

    But definetly I think there should be a Emperor of Spain, and a Holy Roman Emperor title.

    Conversly, I think that the player should prehaps be able to create an emperor title if he controls 4 or more titles.


    So, say I am playing as King of Ireland, and I conqure three other titles. Prehaps I, as a player, want to adopt/create a title that reads as "Emperor of the Irish".

    Prehaps a diplomatic option that can be chosen for the player to "create new title"?

    Creating a new title may aslo work for creating "new" duchy titles too. if this is possible. If we have a Prince of Deheubarth title, and the King of England conqured Dyfed, he prehaps can create a new duchy tiered title "Earl of Pembroke"?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Drachenfire View Post

    Conversly, I think that the player should prehaps be able to create an emperor title if he controls 4 or more titles.
    I was just about to mention the same thing.

  20. #20
    Byzantophile Daimyō DarthJF's Avatar
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    Yeah, Empires are a good idea. HRE and Byzantium should of course have their own mechanics, but I want the ability to create ahistorical empires as well with a really succesful king.
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