EU3toVic2 / Vic2toHoi3 Converter Project

[Idhrendur]

Assumptions like these need to be justified and quantified if we want to continue on this path.

And I'm pretty sure it's well past the point of diminsihing returns to even try.

[DasGuntLord01]

And I'm pretty sure it's well past the point of diminsihing returns to even try.

And that really sucks, because everything else we've done is so amazing; politics is a big hole that's left in an otherwise complete converter. I'm bound to keep thinking about it until we get something.

How about something monumentally simple? We can determine the upper house based on sliders. We should also know which pops actually influence the upper house. (Appointed = Upper Classes Only, otherwise it's all voters). Apply the issues associated with these ideologies to the pops in question.

So with this method we are going backwards (upper house composition -> voter issues, and not the other way around) and we are only giving issues to pops that have a say in the upper house, which is the important thing here.


Also a note on issues: They can be pulled from the political parties in \common\countries.txt for liberal, conservative, and reactionary parties. Even if multiple parties of the same type have different policies, that's okay, because that will reflect a divide in the people who follow that ideology, and most importantly the issues of the country will the tailored to each specific country.


And finally, since we have the upper house, and since upper house determines our voters (and not the other way around) we can pick a correct ruling party based on which ideology has the largest slice of the upper house.

[Torkel]

This might happen if you are using a mod for Victoria 2 that doesn't have "french" as a culture, such as our converter mod.

It was time to get AHD anyway, so a clean install was the sollution. Worked nicely. Thanks for the help.

[Sid Meier]

Sorry that your Dear Leader has been absent and leaving you all directionless and without greater purpose but I had been busy with school work and poking around the AODH project, but I contacted Dasgruntlord and figured out what portions of the first post needed updated and gave it a quick pass through. Better formatting will follow.

Great work Idhrendur and everyone else, without all of you this project would not have been the success it ultimately became. Hopefully this project helps me into beta testing the next Paradox game. *fingers crossed*

[Idhrendur]

I've checked in changes that give unciv nations reforms instead. For now, any leftover progress (there shouldn't be any, I think) will translate into RP at the rate of 800 RP per percent westernization. I've done nothing to make extra effects fire, I'll have to do that later.

And you've got me convinced about politics. If you want to throw some numbers for the upper house at me, I can start with getting that right.

[DasGuntLord01]

Actually, RE pop issues:

My last idea has a paradoxical effect. If a pop has no issues, then they are immediately divided in to ideological thirds on day 1. A more tyranical nation, under my above system, will have MORE pops that have no issues. This gives the paradoxical effect that they least liberal nations (more centralised power) would convert with more diverse ideologies (since there would be more pops that were immediately split in to thirds, which means the more tyranical a nation is the closer it would be to being split in to ideological thirds).


So, I thought about it again, and basically decided that if we are to convert pop issues, then we need to do it for all pops, and this kinda makes sense, kinda.

Europa Universalis 3 is not a game of politics, and indeed the period in question (with the exception of the late 18th century) was a period of tyranny, where the rulers were the nation, and the ideological bent of the rulers was the ideological bent of the people (because, after all, they had very little say in the matter). The late 17th century onwards was a period of great political upheaval and change (the ideas of Liberalism, Communism, Fascism, etc). So therefore, I do not think it's a big deal if we use EU3 sliders to determine the starting point for all pop issues, via the upper house.


Step 1) The first is to use sliders to determine the upper house composition. In essence, we are using the sliders to determine a ratio of ideologies in the upper house. (I think there's probably a better way to do this bit, so I will include this simply for demonstration's sake):

Centralisation vs Decentralisation = Conservative vs Liberal
Aristocracy vs Plutocracy = Reactionary vs Liberal
Serfdom vs Free Subject = Reactionary vs Liberal
Innovative vs Narrow Minded = Liberal vs Conservative
Mercantilism vs Free Trade = Conservative vs Liberal


We add up the values, and get the ratio. The central position zero is worth 0, the far left (negative) position (-5) is worth +5 for the corresponding ideology, and again for the far right (positive) side.

For example, from my Korea game:

Centralisation vs Decentralisation = -2 = 2 Conservative
Aristocracy vs Plutocracy = +3 = 3 Liberal
Serfdom vs Free Subject = +3 = 3 Liberal
Innovative vs Narrow Minded = -3 = 3 Liberal
Mercantilism vs Free Trade = +3 = 3 Liberal

Liberal: 12/14 = 0.85714
Conservative: 2/14 = 0.14286
Reactionary: 0/14 = 0

(Hmm, pretty liberal country, no?) That's the upper house done.


Step 2) Now, the hard part is converting this to issues. The first thing to do is to read the political parties of the country (disregarding the parties that are not active before 1836). We take note of their policies, and their ideologies, and combine them in to a list of issues by ideology. This allows for an ideology to have a divided opinion on one or more issues. So, to continue the example, Korea's 1836 issues by ideology are:

Reactionary:
State capitalism
protectionism
moralism
residency
pacifism

Liberal:
laissez_fair x 2
protectionism
free_trade
pro atheism
pluralism
full_citizenship x 2
pacificsm
pro military

conservative:
state capitalism
protectionism
moralism
residency
pro_military

(note that this does not include desire for political reforms, which we can fudge later).

If we take base percentage value (something sufficiently small and round, like 5%) then we can now determine the percetage value of ideology issues that we will eventually apply to starting pops (so, liberal laissez fair will be 10%, for example).


Step 3) Now the final tricky bit, which is applying these issues to pops.

First, divide all pops in each pop strata according to the upper house values that we determined in step one as closely as possible. (This ensures that whoever controls the upper house will get correctly divided). Then, give each of those pops the issues that we determined in step 2.


Step 4) And, lastly, set the ruling party to a party with the same ideology as the upper house majority.


The result should be that we have 1) Determined the compostion of the upper house. 2) Applied the correct ruling party, and 3) Given every pop in the nation a set of starting issues that reflects the poltics of the nation.


This method does not include political reform issues. However, we can pretty simply add this in. To begin with, in victoria 2, Liberals always vote for increasing political freedom, reactionaries always vote to reduce it, and conservatives never vote for any change. Therefore, for all the given political reforms, all "liberal" pops will have an issue that corresponds to the next level of those reforms (for example, if the country starts with "wealth" voting, liberal pops will have an X% issue for "weighted wealth".) Reactionaries will have an issue for the last one (For the same example, reactionaries will have an X% issue for "no voting"). And conservatives are exempt from this process.

[dtremenak]

And you've got me convinced about politics. If you want to throw some numbers for the upper house at me, I can start with getting that right.

FYI, the parsing and storage mechanisms for V2 parties is better in V2ToHoI3; if you're looking at using party parameters, borrowing that mechanism probably a good place to start.

[Khorney]

with the new patch, is there anything left todo on the converter mod, or does 0.6 work fin with AHD?

[DasGuntLord01]

with the new patch, is there anything left todo on the converter mod, or does 0.6 work fin with AHD?

It does not. It seems the old problems have been replaced with new problems. I've been talking with Zonix in private, and we're all well confused about it. He's working with someone who understands the problem to try and fix the issue.

[Idhrendur]

FYI, the parsing and storage mechanisms for V2 parties is better in V2ToHoI3; if you're looking at using party parameters, borrowing that mechanism probably a good place to start.

I'm not able to find the relevant code. Is everything in the repository up to date? Or am I looking right past it?

[dtremenak]

I'm not able to find the relevant code. Is everything in the repository up to date? Or am I looking right past it?

It's checked in now Ooops...

[Idhrendur]

So, I'm having people use your province mapping tool for the CK2 to EU3 converter project.

Any chance you could add an option that would allow us to map target provinces to some kind of tag that signifies ignore?

[dtremenak]

If you leave the source province list blank, the converter should skip the link but still mark the target as mapped.

[Idhrendur]

Kudoos guys!

I'm glad there are people to do such a converter, eagerly awaiting it

is the Eu3 to Vic2 working?

Mostly. To be complete, here's my list of remaining items to do (or to determine impossible or unimportant)

CBs
	Wars
	Controlled Territory
pop wealth
Province population from EU3 data
Rebels
pop issues

Though not all are in the latest release. I want to get pop issues done before I do the next one, otherwise the Upper House setting gets undone right away.

[DasGuntLord01]

pop wealth is an interesting one. Did you have a plan for calculating it?

It seems the best information we can use is province taxes, but this will need to be calculated by the converter - the save file doesn't have the actual value, but does contain all the variables needed to calculate it.

[Idhrendur]

pop wealth is an interesting one. Did you have a plan for calculating it?

It seems the best information we can use is province taxes, but this will need to be calculated by the converter - the save file doesn't have the actual value, but does contain all the variables needed to calculate it.

I don't necessarily have plans for any of those. Just notions they'd be worth trying to do. :-D

[Gen.Armando]

Mostly. To be complete, here's my list of remaining items to do (or to determine impossible or unimportant)

CBs
	Wars
	Controlled Territory
pop wealth
Province population from EU3 data
Rebels
pop issues

Though not all are in the latest release. I want to get pop issues done before I do the next one, otherwise the Upper House setting gets undone right away.

Good job to you Sir, and to all who were involved, that is impressive

[DasGuntLord01]

I don't necessarily have plans for any of those. Just notions they'd be worth trying to do. :-D

Might I suggest that population be first priority? I know we worked out a way to calculate population somewhere else... And we ought to get it sorted before we do pop wealth, which I will now discuss.


EU3 province income is, of course, split in to several different types: Taxes (yearly and monthly), tarrifs, tolls, and production and so on. A detailed writeup (perhaps out of date) can be found here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Taxes and here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Production

This seems like a really good method for determining the general wealth of the province. The trick is working out how to convert one to the other.

Pops are of different classes. Classes are assumed to have different incomes, and therefore different wealth. Starting wealth in the GC, even in London, actually seems kinda low to me (small fractions of a pound per pop member). Different cultures have different wealths as well (jewish artisans in london are an order of magnitude wealthier than the aristocrats). It doesn't seem we'll be able to get any good ideas from the vanilla game, beyond a very loose wealth ratio of 3:2:1.


One thing I would like to suggest is adding up the total wealth of the world in the Grand Campaign start (divided by class), and redistributing it using province income as a weight. This immediately solves two problems:

1) A "balanced" total wealth of the world.
2) A non-arbitrary ratio of wealth between classes.
3) A non-arbitrary conversion of province taxes to pop wealth.


So. Step 1) For each province, add up the total (yearly? monthly?) income of the province.
2) For each social class, add up the total wealth of all pops in the class in the whole world in the GC.
3) Using EU3 province income as a weight, redistribute the wealth class-wise.

[Idhrendur]

Might I suggest that population be first priority? I know we worked out a way to calculate population somewhere else... And we ought to get it sorted before we do pop wealth, which I will now discuss.

I agree. I had just started some work on it before AHD came out, and then got distracted with the AHD-appropriate changes. It's next on the list after issues. And that somewhere else got quoted on the first post of this thread, so it's easy to find. :-D

EU3 province income is, of course, split in to several different types: Taxes (yearly and monthly), tarrifs, tolls, and production and so on. A detailed writeup (perhaps out of date) can be found here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Taxes and here: http://www.paradoxian.org/eu3wiki/Production

This seems like a really good method for determining the general wealth of the province. The trick is working out how to convert one to the other.

Pops are of different classes. Classes are assumed to have different incomes, and therefore different wealth. Starting wealth in the GC, even in London, actually seems kinda low to me (small fractions of a pound per pop member). Different cultures have different wealths as well (jewish artisans in london are an order of magnitude wealthier than the aristocrats). It doesn't seem we'll be able to get any good ideas from the vanilla game, beyond a very loose wealth ratio of 3:2:1.


One thing I would like to suggest is adding up the total wealth of the world in the Grand Campaign start (divided by class), and redistributing it using province income as a weight. This immediately solves two problems:

1) A "balanced" total wealth of the world.
2) A non-arbitrary ratio of wealth between classes.
3) A non-arbitrary conversion of province taxes to pop wealth.


So. Step 1) For each province, add up the total (yearly? monthly?) income of the province.
2) For each social class, add up the total wealth of all pops in the class in the whole world in the GC.
3) Using EU3 province income as a weight, redistribute the wealth class-wise.

as always, an excellent analysis.

[DasGuntLord01]

as always, an excellent analysis.

I do try.