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    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    The Second Modernity

    They claimed it was the end of history, that the end of the Soviet Union meant Western Liberal Order had won the day. It was supposed to be a golden era of global prosperity, free of the strife of the previous centuries. Pax Americana, they called it, and we believed them. Now we have to pay for our hubris.

    The dawn of the 21st century wasn't an extension of the 20th century like so many predicted. Hind sight's 20/20, if we had known then, what we know now... The early 21st century saw a decline in American relevence in the world, not the expansion of it, and in the wake of growing spending, the US Foreign Policy was paralyzed. China used the opportunity to expand its sphere of influence, securing resources for its booming manufacturing sector. Russia, empowered by its booming gas sales, used this time to reassert it's hegemony over Eastern Europe, and parts of the Middle east, furthering its control on the oil supplies of the world. The pressure from the east, forced the European Union closer together, negotiations are going on even today for a unified federation, with only France and Britain as the chief euroskeptics. France, trying to find itself in the world turns its eye to its former empire, the Francophonie. Britain, on the other hand finds solstice in the company of the Americans, who, despite its losses, remains the unofficial leader of the Anglosphere.

    Other powers haven't been sitting by idly. India, Brazil and Japan all want their own place in the sun, and they're willing to fight for it, it necessary.

    We were so afraid of a New World Order, we didn't notice when the last bit of world order slipped away. What's left is pure chaos. Anarchy. God Help us all.


    This is the page for The Second Modernity, a mod spanning 2036 to 2136. It is meant to run a world, as conceived by contemporary political theorists and science fiction writers: Neo-Liberalism run amuck, the end of the Nation State, and the return to a sort of 19th Century Multipolar world order.

    It is acknowledged that Vicky cannot model the Current Era perfectly, but it is my opinion is can handle best of any paradox game. To this end, we must note a few necessary abstractions:
    - Airpower will be modelled as attached to infantry, granting a unit and stack a boost to recon and firepower, at the cost of a large maintenance cost.
    - The threat of Nuclear Armageddon is a thing of the past, due to an international missile shield. Directly ripped from Endwar, but its a nice Deus Ex Machina.

    The goal of this mod is thusly:
    To create gameplay that allows players to experience, explore and playthough the shift from a "monopolar" world, to a multipolar world. Not only this, but cultural shifts due to globalisation, and the breakdown of national sovereignty and potential future government systems, which may arise due to that same reorganising power due to globalisation.

    Secondly, to explore the potential impact of a shifting technological paradigm on cultural movements.

    This sounds rather lofty, in simpler terms,
    This mod is designed to take you from a world which is designed after the near future (ala Tom Clancy's Endwar) and end up in a world designed after more dystopian or cyberpunk elements (ala Battlefield 2142, Deus Ex, Snow Crash, Diamond Age).
    Last edited by Verenti; 06-08-2010 at 12:48.
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  2. #2
    ¡Por qué no te callas! Moderator Txini's Avatar
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    So you plan to make a World with today's frontiers but that converted again in some sort of Cold War with more than 2 sides
    Hay quien ha venido al mundo para enamorarse de una sola y determinada mujer, y consecuentemente, no es probable que tropiece con ella.-José Ortega y Gasset

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  3. #3
    Field Marshal Sarmatia1871's Avatar
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    In this sort of setting, I would be tempted to mod out warfare altogether and just have competition be based on developing prestige and "industry" (i.e. cultural and economic/technological development) - particularly given that realistically any warfare between Great Powers in the next century would be likely lead to the destruction of life as we know it, and that anything above limited proxy wars would just become quite odd and incongruous to the mod setting as a whole (particularly the standard Paradox-game war style, which basically just ends with an exchange of territory).

    The Vicky2 sphere of influence system does look quite flexible, and could model something like shifting influence systems quite well when combined with specifically desgined events and national decisions, and having mod gameplay based around development and covert spreading of influence and "soft power" would lead to a very different game experience.

  4. #4
    How will you model western militants. Those are a thing of the past.

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    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Txini View Post
    So you plan to make a World with today's frontiers but that converted again in some sort of Cold War with more than 2 sides
    Think of it more like a second 19th century.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatia1871 View Post
    In this sort of setting, I would be tempted to mod out warfare altogether and just have competition be based on developing prestige and "industry" (i.e. cultural and economic/technological development) - particularly given that realistically any warfare between Great Powers in the next century would be likely lead to the destruction of life as we know it, and that anything above limited proxy wars would just become quite odd and incongruous to the mod setting as a whole (particularly the standard Paradox-game war style, which basically just ends with an exchange of territory).

    The Vicky2 sphere of influence system does look quite flexible, and could model something like shifting influence systems quite well when combined with specifically desgined events and national decisions, and having mod gameplay based around development and covert spreading of influence and "soft power" would lead to a very different game experience.
    We need the military to explore the themes we want. It might not be so realistic, but its a hell of a lot more playable-- In the project's reality, the nature of warfare has dynamically changed which makes engagements more short ranged. Likely the Missile shield can intercept strategic bombers too, but we haven't really commited to any single idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by Searry View Post
    How will you model western militants. Those are a thing of the past.
    People killing for what they want? A thing of the past? Hardly.
    I don't want to give away everything right now, but we have some ideas, which might just give people in the west something worth fighting their governments for.
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  6. #6
    Grand Strategist takedown47's Avatar
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    cool, i'll play it. i like the idea of having rebuild civilisation. one question though, will you have new countries or keep the old one in places (like United States, Japan etc) or are you going for more ahistorical states like cylonia?

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    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by takedown47 View Post
    cool, i'll play it. i like the idea of having rebuild civilisation. one question though, will you have new countries or keep the old one in places (like United States, Japan etc) or are you going for more ahistorical states like cylonia?
    The start date is 25.5 years from today, so it'll start with a world almost identical to today, maybe with like... Darfur independent, but, like I just said, there will be a reason to revolt, and so, if its not too resource demanding, I want to have a lot of "microstates", not to the degree of Neil Stephenson's Snow Crash, but in that direction. As we're exploring the end of the Nation State, the fragmentation might end up with including several countries that were never countries before. Likely we'll stick to existing state lines and use historical entities when we can.
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Verenti View Post
    The start date is 25.5 years from today, so it'll start with a world almost identical to today, maybe with like... Darfur independent, but, like I just said, there will be a reason to revolt, and so, if its not too resource demanding, I want to have a lot of "microstates", not to the degree of Neil Stephenson's Snow Crash, but in that direction. As we're exploring the end of the Nation State, the fragmentation might end up with including several countries that were never countries before. Likely we'll stick to existing state lines and use historical entities when we can.
    So, are we going to see an unified federal Europe? Or has the plan to unite all nations of Europe under one government failed in this mod?

  9. #9
    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rain908 View Post
    So, are we going to see an unified federal Europe? Or has the plan to unite all nations of Europe under one government failed in this mod?
    There will be the chance to create a good many states, not limited to a European Federation. Europa/European Federation/etc. will be the union tag for all European Cultures (maybe not Britain). However, this will start with Germany on the verge of creating the EF, with France, UK and Eastern European EU lacking.

    From there, the player can decided the best way to procede.
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    Relating to Eastern Europe Russia would not be able to get it back.
    I am going to try to explain this as softly as i can and without offending any body So i would like to apologies if i do so by mistake .
    There is in my country(Romania) and i think the same in Poland and other places in eastern Europe an almost irrational fear of any potential Russian return. Russia would have to fight these countries till they run out of bullets or rocks to throw at them before they ever get them back in their SOI. Romania, Hungary, the Czechs ,Poles and the Baltic states would be unlikely to agree to Russian dominance even25.5 years from now Russia will have to move in the tanks before they do that.
    Russia has a better chance of getting Germany in their SOI then Eastern Europe.
    Just so it doesn't seem I'm talking rubbish think about why the aforementioned countries have such good ties with the US and have followed it wherever without even looking back be it Afghanistan or Iraq. Reason is they want the Americans on their land they want the missile shield and care little if naught about what German, France or the EU want in regards to Russia.
    Russia could get Ukraine and Belarus and maybe Moldavia, and of course Serbia, Bulgaria and The Greeks who are people that genuinely like them.
    But in the rest of Eastern Europe the psychological effect soviet rule had on the population will not go away so fast.
    Hope i did not offend anyone I just wanted to help you get your mod as realistic as possible.
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  11. #11
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    Will various European nationalist movements (Most of Spain, Basques, etc) be successfull/still around?
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    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by von Sachsen View Post
    Will various European nationalist movements (Most of Spain, Basques, etc) be successfull/still around?
    I can't promise that every population will be accurately modelled, however, it is not in our intention to not model them.
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  13. #13
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    if you held off making your mod and first worked together with the MDS folks, then the same work wouldn't be done twice by two sets of people.
    As alot of this mod is just going to be the same as today, itd seem a good step to use a today scenario as the base and then work from there.

    Why not leave Nukes in but have them politically infeasible like in the modern world, America has Nukes but cant ever use them as itd never hear the end of it. rather than some sci-fi sheild. With if things go bad enough that the decision appears it launches a six-month long international event chain that ends with the largest POPulated province in the enemy GP being nuked in an event with large population loses and deadly modifiers, setting off another three months of event chain ending in nuclear holocaust, ending the game, or maybe killing 95% of each province's population and then ending the game.

    As for the Basque thing, this is a globalisation world no? Where most people dont care about nationality, and nationalists are regarded as today we consider fascists, neo-abolutists or communist. No-one takes them seriously and so as politically movement it has no credibility or influence. An apathetic liberal dystopia, where everyone is free and more or less happy but no-one cares or really knows anything about politics, as they think they are freer, can vote and are better off than anyone has ever been so there is no need to think about.
    Atleast thats what i took from what you wrote, but the point is, in a world like this, Separatist movements would have even less chance of success than in ours, so itd wouldnt make much sense to included new minority-culture countries born since now.

    And why not leave the Francophonie called the Francophonie? If the english speaking part is the Anglosphere, having distinct names is usually better
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    ¡Por qué no te callas! Moderator Txini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by von Sachsen View Post
    Will various European nationalist movements (Most of Spain, Basques, etc) be successfull/still around?
    Most of Spain don't have nationalist to represent, 4 nerds around with no power at all don't make them something

    At most you can Basques and Catalans, Galicians being next option but any more
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    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    if you held off making your mod and first worked together with the MDS folks, then the same work wouldn't be done twice by two sets of people.
    As alot of this mod is just going to be the same as today, itd seem a good step to use a today scenario as the base and then work from there.

    Why not leave Nukes in but have them politically infeasible like in the modern world, America has Nukes but cant ever use them as itd never hear the end of it. rather than some sci-fi sheild. With if things go bad enough that the decision appears it launches a six-month long international event chain that ends with the largest POPulated province in the enemy GP being nuked in an event with large population loses and deadly modifiers, setting off another three months of event chain ending in nuclear holocaust, ending the game, or maybe killing 95% of each province's population and then ending the game.

    As for the Basque thing, this is a globalisation world no? Where most people dont care about nationality, and nationalists are regarded as today we consider fascists, neo-abolutists or communist. No-one takes them seriously and so as politically movement it has no credibility or influence. An apathetic liberal dystopia, where everyone is free and more or less happy but no-one cares or really knows anything about politics, as they think they are freer, can vote and are better off than anyone has ever been so there is no need to think about.
    Atleast thats what i took from what you wrote, but the point is, in a world like this, Separatist movements would have even less chance of success than in ours, so itd wouldnt make much sense to included new minority-culture countries born since now.

    And why not leave the Francophonie called the Francophonie? If the english speaking part is the Anglosphere, having distinct names is usually better
    You have a good idea about the MDS collaberation. Right now we're working on event ideas, and the 3D art assets, which will not be largely reusable.

    As for the Basques/Quebecois/Chechyans/Scottish/Other Nationalists. Yes, this is essentially modelling the world after death of the Nation-State (which contemporary Political Thinkers put at 1989), however to leave out these subnations, I think would undermine the dynamic possible with the new global forces in play. Imagine a map where Quebec had only one pop which said "Canadian". Now it might not seem like it, but Niptium is my friend. Atleast he has my MSN and Facebook. I don't want to be spammed night at day about the injustices of my mod, leaving out the Quebecois. But yes, this is not a mod about the liberation of nations. Economically viable regions? Sure. First and foremost, this is not about accuracy, but rather about making a fun mod to play.

    There will be forces, which unite and forces that will divide. Uniting forces being new emerging identities, necessities and ideas, and dividing forces being shifting power balances, new technologies and... ideas. Its an era of change, just like the 19th century, and just like Absolute Monarchies had to adapt or be trampled, so too will the traditional Nation-States have to adapt, or be ripped apart.

    edit: and I used Francosphere, because I couldn't remember Francophonie from the top of my head. I will just get rid of Francosphere now.

    edit2: We will reconsider our stance on nuclear weapons, how ever a "Sci-Fi" solution isn't a bad one. This is a sci-fi mod, and there will be lots of Sci-Fi elements. We do not assume that technology in the 21st and 22nd century will look exactly like the beginning of the 21st century or the late 20th. There will be things which will be considered by some to be fantastical. But if you asked someone from 1900 about what they'd think about technology from 2000, they would likely say its impossible.
    Last edited by Verenti; 06-08-2010 at 13:03.
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  16. #16
    Panjandrum Autonomous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verenti View Post
    I want to have a lot of "microstates", not to the degree of Neil Stephenson's Snow Crash, but in that direction.
    This set off alarm bells for me, and not just because Snow Crash is by far and away the worst book Stephenson has ever written, in every single aspect.

    Victoria is a game about states. The only actors are states. Centralised states, with taxes and governments and armies and territory and capitals. Snow Crash's microstates have none of these things. Well, maybe territory, but nothing approaching anything the size of a province by six orders of magnitude.*

    Worse, states in V2 are bound inextricably to culture. It is designed from the bottom up to model a world of nationstates, and if you're going to try to shoehorn it into a world where the nationstate is dead I forsee difficulties.

    Besides, it's not even certain yet that post-nationalism is anything but a western European peculiarity. I can't see China, for example, shaking off nationalism in the next quarter-century.

    And Germany less Euroskeptic than France? That's a tough one to call atm, though I suppose in this department twenty five years is long enough for anything to happen.
    ______________________

    Well, enough of that. Time for fun stuff.

    Mr Verenti, sir, in your mod, what will be the status the following technologies:

    Nanotechnology
    Genetic Engineering
    Cybernetics
    Robotics
    Artificial Intelligence
    Nuclear Fusion Power Generation
    Orbital and Sub-Orbital Flight (incl. orbital habitats and warfare)
    High energy weaponry
    Hydroponics and Agriculture in general

    How far have they developed, how widespread is the technology, what are their effects on society etc. etc.?

    Similarly, what about things like climate change, peak oil etc.; how serious are they, how have they changed the world, do they turn out to be entirely false?

    And finally, have you read Transmetropolitan?
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    ¡Por qué no te callas! Moderator Txini's Avatar
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    I don't think Nation States are dying neither in Europe, is true there are some nationalist movements there, some with success, very few, and lots that are rarities, like the nationalism in my province that are four guys and a cow, they are more to create a pannational state like European Federation (even some of the minor nationalist which is high contradiction) than destroying actual nationstates.
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  18. #18
    Lord Protector Verenti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autonomous View Post
    This set off alarm bells for me, and not just because Snow Crash is by far and away the worst book Stephenson has ever written, in every single aspect.

    Victoria is a game about states. The only actors are states. Centralised states, with taxes and governments and armies and territory and capitals. Snow Crash's microstates have none of these things. Well, maybe territory, but nothing approaching anything the size of a province by six orders of magnitude.*
    Had I said Front Mission: Gun Hazard, would you feel any better? No, ofcourse not, we have no plans to try to stuff 20 claves into a province, or represent that, but we are trying to make Balkanisation a realistic possibility, and not necessarily based on ethic or cultural lines.

    In said game, the protaganist came from a country named "Bergen", as in a piece of Norway. It is my desire to have that same sort of possibility, if a country can't weather the global chaos.


    Worse, states in V2 are bound inextricably to culture. It is designed from the bottom up to model a world of nationstates, and if you're going to try to shoehorn it into a world where the nationstate is dead I forsee difficulties.
    I disagree, Victoria is modelled for both to deal with Nation States and to deal with normal states. Check how many nation states exist at the start of the game, it doesn't mean that the game isn't designed to deal with non-nation state actors. Besides I believe, if you play with the dynamics, you can force a very different "historical progression"

    Besides, it's not even certain yet that post-nationalism is anything but a western European peculiarity. I can't see China, for example, shaking off nationalism in the next quarter-century.
    Wait and see what we do. It's not Civ, not everyone has to start in the same place with a level playing field.

    And Germany less Euroskeptic than France? That's a tough one to call atm, though I suppose in this department twenty five years is long enough for anything to happen.
    Well, apparently Eastern Europe in the Russian sphere of Influence isn't realistic as well, still, What's the alternative? South Africa as a great power? Canada? Saudi Arabia? Iran?

    France maintains this sort of Colonial empire in real life, if we were to model this, then France needs to be a Great Power itself, and thus couldn't be in its own sphere.

    Well, enough of that. Time for fun stuff.

    Mr Verenti, sir, in your mod, what will be the status the following technologies:

    Nanotechnology
    Genetic Engineering
    Cybernetics
    Robotics
    Artificial Intelligence
    Nuclear Fusion Power Generation
    Orbital and Sub-Orbital Flight (incl. orbital habitats and warfare)
    High energy weaponry
    Hydroponics and Agriculture in general

    How far have they developed, how widespread is the technology, what are their effects on society etc. etc.?

    Similarly, what about things like climate change, peak oil etc.; how serious are they, how have they changed the world, do they turn out to be entirely false?

    And finally, have you read Transmetropolitan?
    Those issues are not completely decided upon, the design team has to still talk that over.

    I plan definitely on most of those technologies, if only as inventions, outside of Orbital Flight and extra-atmospheric habitats, however, there might be something about Space Elevators.

    Aside from very limited implentation of a few of them, most will not be absent from the start, instead starting from a near future, featuring technology like the proposed "Land Warrior" technologies, and a bit extrapolated from our current world, but nothing fantastical from the get-go. As the game goes, the players will gain access to more and more fantastic technology. Maybe the advent of Sustainable Fusion, will allow playes to build a factory which outputs energy resource with no input, which can then be used to produce "fuel" for vechicles. However this is all very conceptual right now.

    This mod, in a sense is a bit of a hommage to all those near future things which I love so much. Peak Oil, we have talked about the idea of a "anti-gold rush" event, which randomly dries up oil supplies, making the control of oil rich countries and provinces even more vital. Climate Change, I was thinking maybe an event, that causes global cooling, like 2142, but that's not really been decided upon.

    I haven't read Transmetropolitan, but after reading about it on Wiki, I think the retroactively ripped off my Tannermann Corporation. Maybe I should give it a read.
    Last edited by Verenti; 06-08-2010 at 19:00.
    AARs:
    Barrett's Privateers - A Nova Scotia Victoria AAR - Dead. Planned for resurrection

    Mods:

    Second Modernity
    Explore the years 2036 to 2136 with this mod of Victoria II
    In production
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    [QUOTE_32N]

  19. #19
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    I so want. NIce Idea

  20. #20
    I made the same suggestion in the Cold War mod, but I think it applies here for nuclear weapons.

    I propose that they be left out of the military aspect because of two reasons:
    1. The military system can't simulate a nuke without extreme abstraction such as making it 'cavalry' of all things.
    2. Why does an invasion have to automatically result in launching all the nukes? When faced with the decision to either end everything or live to fight another day, why would the leaders or even an entire nation would choose to die immediately? It makes no sense, even in the US where fighting in guerrilla style resistances worked so well in it's formation. It's a big part of history, and without sabotage and other kinds of resistance the existence of some nations today might not have been so. Thus, I suggest that no nation would be crazy enough to feasibly do such a thing. Particularly if we are to assume that corporate influence is even greater than it is today in politics.

    However, modeling some kind of "should we use small scale nukes in this war?" event could be made when fighting between modernized and un-modernized nations. But if so, it should carry heavy relations reductions and major badboy increases for clicking yes for some kind of temporary combat bonuses, war score, or something that could turn the tide significantly in the favor of the modernized nation...
    "No you are wrong, ninjas can come from any ethnic culture, the Amish for example." -- FatSpider

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