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Capitalists or the Capital - which comes first?

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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
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Orinsul said:
but it shouldn't be just that he has the money, but that he can afford it but is losing money in what he is already doing
no-one is going to change from a prosperous occupation to an unknown one just because they can afford to, they must also have more risk in what they already do compared to starting anew
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As was already said numerous times. Good artisan makes more money and employs more people and machines until he owns factory and can be proclaimed capitalist. That is something this game can't do precisely for more reasons. First of all artisan production is sort of abstracted and you first need to be capitalist and then you found factory. But that is all just so the game will make sense. More realistic solution would require different economic system.
 
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Orinsul said:
but it shouldn't be just that he has the money, but that he can afford it but is losing money in what he is already doing
no-one is going to change from a prosperous occupation to an unknown one just because they can afford to, they must also have more risk in what they already do compared to starting anew
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Or simply be ambitious enough to want even more money, more status, more bling, more women, faster cars, etc ;)
 
Meanmanturbo said:
Uh, if you have no capis or factories, why would you have lazer fairies in power anyways:D? I mean, all your remaining POPs would be naturally conservative (if happy, otherwise commie, reactionary or facist). So no one would vote for them, and if you apoint them as ruling party without support your realy just deserving the trouble;) So I see this as a none issue.
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Agree, state capitalism would seem more appropriate. Then the clerks & bureaucrats representing the first generation of managers can transition into a large enough nucleus for laissez faire industrialization.
 
but on the scale that enough to make a whole POP turn capitalists, enough to make any significant difference?
for a few hundred people to suddenly pick up their lot and change the entire shape of their business if their business is out already under any threat what so ever?
it would be surprising.
And i was thinking more of it being aristocrats with money would be making the transition, as a society with no capitalists is probably one that would start off with a few rich ones of them. One with rich artisans would probably have a couple capitalists from the get go.
Could Officers who were wealthy make the tranistion? is something also to consider.
 
vertinox said:
Perhaps if you lower your tax rates for the wealthy, they'll either encourage immigration of rich pops looking to avoid taxes or the pops that you do have become wealthy enough to become a capitalist.
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OHgamer wrote in his AAR that if you hover your pointer over a certain spot on the screen you can see where your pops are emigrating. I wonder if this same mechanic works for immigration. It would also be great to see what class these pops belong to, that info could be very useful. Especially if rich pops are coming and going and taking their chunk of the national bank funds with them...
 
Interesting question. I'm used to play countries that start out with factories in them in Revolutions, so the attendant Cappies make sense. For a nation with no factories, starting the ball rolling as state capitalist might be the way to go, then liberalizing as time goes on.

Just recall that Uncivs don't get factories, clerks, craftsmen, or cappies until they are conquered by a Civilized country or manage to civilize themselves. I'm also guessing that colonies don't get factories, clerks, craftsmen, or cappies either, and you have to turn them into a full state to get that benefit.

My guess is that Capitalists have more sources of income than just factories, but I don't know how that is arranged.
 
Orinsul said:
but on the scale that enough to make a whole POP turn capitalists, enough to make any significant difference?
for a few hundred people to suddenly pick up their lot and change the entire shape of their business if their business is out already under any threat what so ever?
it would be surprising.
And i was thinking more of it being aristocrats with money would be making the transition, as a society with no capitalists is probably one that would start off with a few rich ones of them. One with rich artisans would probably have a couple capitalists from the get go.
Could Officers who were wealthy make the tranistion? is something also to consider.
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I don't know for sure, but I always thought that any type of POP can evolve into another when he's making enough profit. It frankly doesn't make sense to be still part of middle class when you have such a thick pile of money that you can beat a whale to death with it.
 
Sate Capitalism works quite well. However, using National Focus to get people to promote to Capitalists also does the trick.
 
King said:
Sate Capitalism works quite well. However, using National Focus to get people to promote to Capitalists also does the trick.
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I alwas wondered what real life policy could this represent. Something like giving state medals or titles to people who are willing to risk money to found industry? :)
 
telesien said:
I alwas wondered what real life policy could this represent. Something like giving state medals or titles to people who are willing to risk money to found industry? :)
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The exact form the persuation takes is entirely upto your own person suspension of disbelief. In Britain successful industrialists got peerages in the House of Lords, or the chance to buy a seat in Parliament.
 
King said:
The exact form the persuation takes is entirely upto your own person suspension of disbelief. In Britain successful industrialists got peerages in the House of Lords, or the chance to buy a seat in Parliament.
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I always think of it as tax breaks, grants, etc. Doesn't require too much imagination IMO.
 
Baneslave said:
Where do Capitalists get their first capital to start factories?
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The first ones will probably be aristocrats who see their profit from land decreasing thanks to technology boosting supply and decreasing prices

RedRalphWiggum said:
I always think of it as tax breaks, grants, etc. Doesn't require too much imagination IMO.
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That would require some economic consequences and not just focus ;)
 
Even capital is not neccessarily neccessary. There are always loans.
 
Let me see if I've understood.
I start with a country without any capitalists or factories.
I've some aristocrats and possibly some artisans.

King said:
using National Focus to get people to promote to Capitalists also does the trick.
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I guess that NF will act as an "incentive" for Artisans and/or Aristocrats to change into Capitalists.
Of course the freshly converted POPs have some cash, so they can building factories using

King said:
the money they have accumulated
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Anyway what if the money isn't enough? The capitalists buy their live/everyday/luxury goods and start loosing money without gaining (no factories) , possibly "reverting" into artisans or going away in search of a best country to live.

Does the NF in "capitalist building" also give them some extra money to sustain their expenses? Or I've to choose the "right moment" when convert, that is when aristocrats are really full of cash, so they can happly invest in factories?
 
Ex Mudder said:
Interesting question. I'm used to play countries that start out with factories in them in Revolutions, so the attendant Cappies make sense. For a nation with no factories, starting the ball rolling as state capitalist might be the way to go, then liberalizing as time goes on.

Just recall that Uncivs don't get factories, clerks, craftsmen, or cappies until they are conquered by a Civilized country or manage to civilize themselves. I'm also guessing that colonies don't get factories, clerks, craftsmen, or cappies either, and you have to turn them into a full state to get that benefit....
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Not so sure about the restriction on colonies, after all, lack of population to work in factories or even produce enough of anything to make even railroad-building worthwhile, is a big enough drawback in and of itself for colonies. Same with the POP types in colonies, the main problem is lower population density, so industry isn't as profitable there.

But at the moment I'm assuming all nations that don't have factories (uncivs and maybe a few civs even) will start with a state economy/planned economy ruling party, and practically always a monarchy of some sort, allowing the player to appoint such a party as well. As soon as 1 factory is built, you can encourage cappies (assuming you've civved), who start profiting from the factory, and the ball is rolling...


Artesans/other POPs evolving into capis could work too, in Wicky, even though it couldn't have in Vicky. 2 reasons: the POP promotion is a trickle, and presumeably they do take spare cash with them. The second reason is that factory projects are also "trickles" in that capis buy goods in small amounts over a period of time to have the materials for the factory (IIRC units of 0.01 goods are shown). This means even a small trickle of cash from the artesan->capi trickle will eventually make a factory.
 
Kliwarrior said:
I guess that NF will act as an "incentive" for Artisans and/or Aristocrats to change into Capitalists.
Of course the freshly converted POPs have some cash, so they can building factories using

Anyway what if the money isn't enough? The capitalists buy their live/everyday/luxury goods and start loosing money without gaining (no factories) , possibly "reverting" into artisans or going away in search of a best country to live.

Does the NF in "capitalist building" also give them some extra money to sustain their expenses? Or I've to choose the "right moment" when convert, that is when aristocrats are really full of cash, so they can happly invest in factories?
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What happens is this, When the first Capitalists promotes, he picks a project to build. Sinks his money in and the goods start to be bought to build the factory. As more Capitalists promote they will continue to sink their money into the project. Once enough Capitalists appear enough money is raised and the factory is built. Now is the time to flip national focus to Crafstmen. As long as a factorty is being built the Craftsmen will hang around starve a little until the thing is finished. A bit odd I know, but it is better than the factory instanty shutting down once built because there is no one yet there to work in it.
 
King, thank you very much for the clear explanation. :) :)
 
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