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Capitalists or the Capital - which comes first?

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Victoria 2 17560 After Action Reports (AAR)
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KonradRichtmark

KonradRichtmark

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Ok, bad allegory, but seriously, how would a country with neither capitalists nor factories get either with a laissez-faire party in power?

Factories are built by capitalists. To build factories, capitalists need money. In V2, incomes aren't pooled together and divided between all POPs like it used to be in V1, but rather, all POPs get their income from some specific place. Capitalists get a share of factory profits. But if there aren't any factories to begin with, how can capitalists get the money with which to build any?

I suppose other POPs converting to capitalists would keep their pocket money in the conversion, but with capitalist lifestyles being as expensive as they are, what's stopping the newly promoted income-less capitalist from running out of his savings, devolving back, leaving his started factory unfinished?
 
Good question.

Maybe its better idea to start industrilazing as some state capitalist goverment( or any other that can build factories), to build up a small base for your capis to survive?
 
They should build some factories before they start to consume themselfs to death :D
 
Anybody who has surplus wealth can build a factory in real life. I mean, capitalists may not come from venture capital. Some, as has been said, may come from success in other means of production, and others might develop as a result of specialized educations and the creation of an owning class by the state (along the lines of National Focus).
 
GrafKeks said:
Can Pops take Loans?

I dont know so I´m asking, would be nice if someone can confirm this
Click to expand...

Sorry for my quick edit on my own post - But I do think taking a loan, especially from the great power whose sphere you are in, then using it to give your own pops a massive tax break is the way to go here. Combine it with a industrial/capitalist national focus and then its a waiting game hoping the factory breaks into the black before you default

@ unperson - There should be a way to allow your pops to take loans with favorable interest rates from your national bank... or at least free up credit a little
 
unperson said:
Now that I think of it there is a national bank shown on the budget screen, maybe pop's can borrow from there? It would be awesome.
Click to expand...

I specifically asked King this in the dev diary thread dealing with the national bank, and unfortunately, the answer was no. Only governments can take loans.
 
GrafKeks said:
They should build some factories before they start to consume themselfs to death :D
Click to expand...

Not going to happen if they're as decadent as V1 Capitalits who absolutely must get 100% luxury goods, and only after having got that will start saving to build factories.

The issue I could see with the artisan -> capitalist is that whole POPs don't change, but rather, there's a little trickle of folks leaving one POP and joining another (or setting up a new POP in this case). So even if the entire artisan POP would have loads of money to spare, those few who leave to become capitalists would only take with them a small share of that pile of cash. Assuming, of course, that those who evolve into capitalists only take along money in proportion to their number.
 
Capitalists are just POPs who get a disproportionate share of the profits of your economy. They represent the guys who own the industrial assets of your society.

If you have no Capitalists, because there are no industrial assets, everyone else gets more money. However you may end up with no one accumulating enough of it to invest. The craftsmen and clerks will spend their extra money on nice pants and tobacco, the aristocrats will spend it all on parties and debauchery, and the farmer spends it to buy pork on sundays. Some of the POPs may turn into capitalists if you are doing well enough, however if you're a poor country then the state may be the only one running a surplus.

An aristocratic society may not have any entrepreneurs. An egalitarian or primitive society may not have any people who own industrial assets. Or you may have a country where, due to a revolution or a history of top-down government, all productive assets belong to the Sultan/Czar/King. In that case you may suffer some disadvantages... the aristocratic country falls behind socially and economically, and eventually gets eaten up by the better organized neighbours. (Hello Poland-Lithuania.) The people in the egalitarian paradise live a nice life until an aggressive authoritarian empire sends its army to steal their stuff and turn them into peons. (Hello Hawaii/Polynesia/Australia...) The absolutist country fails to invest into productive sectors, and eventually the burden of keeping up with the neighbours makes them levy such heavy taxes that the people rise in revolt and overthrow their government.

Sucks to be non-capitalist!! :D
 
KonradRichtmark said:
The issue I could see with the artisan -> capitalist is that whole POPs don't change, but rather, there's a little trickle of folks leaving one POP and joining another (or setting up a new POP in this case). So even if the entire artisan POP would have loads of money to spare, those few who leave to become capitalists would only take with them a small share of that pile of cash. Assuming, of course, that those who evolve into capitalists only take along money in proportion to their number.
Click to expand...

It will take time, surely it won't happen overnight or even within a few years. A sustained effort towards a clear goal is the only way - combining national focuses, research, tax breaks, and effective use of loans... Maybe this is why many nations are just having an industrial boom recently and not in the Victorian era...
 
Uh, if you have no capis or factories, why would you have lazer fairies in power anyways:D? I mean, all your remaining POPs would be naturally conservative (if happy, otherwise commie, reactionary or facist). So no one would vote for them, and if you apoint them as ruling party without support your realy just deserving the trouble;) So I see this as a none issue.

edit: come think of it, bureaucrats might still be naturally liberal, though if they by themselves make up a large enough interest group you might have a bit of a larger problem with a bloated beurocrazy (yes I spellt that correctly:D)
 
Perhaps if you lower your tax rates for the wealthy, they'll either encourage immigration of rich pops looking to avoid taxes or the pops that you do have become wealthy enough to become a capitalist.
 
but it shouldn't be just that he has the money, but that he can afford it but is losing money in what he is already doing
no-one is going to change from a prosperous occupation to an unknown one just because they can afford to, they must also have more risk in what they already do compared to starting anew
 
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