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Thread: 1815 - Concert of Europe scenario, research thread

  1. #41
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    That leaves us with the problem of the many countries that split off from newly independent viceroyalties, even if you want to elevate the various captaincies to tags.

    Having Spanish America ruled by four or five vast creole-run satellites might actually make it less likely to see an independent Venezuela, Texas or Chile by 1836 than putting all those areas and their problems in Spain's hands.

    EDIT: All images used in future maps that were stolen from the Clio map thread will be in greyscale

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  2. #42
    My personal preference is to get a simple timeline expansion over a scripted game that tries to force things into historicality.

    Im fine with Spain AI retaining most of her colonies as a result. When I started a 1800 Spain game in Eu3, Id also manage to keep them easily; but Id have been much more displeased if I had an unhistorical start because of pre-built crutches.

    Similarily, in Vicky2, we will all manage to reverse the collapse of the Ottomans, the USCA, etc. Should we be prevented by making these states collapse by event? No! Use the Paradox model; create a historical 1815 map; and embrace the fact that the world will be unrecognizable by 1836 just as Paradox embraces that it will be 1857.

  3. #43
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alerias View Post
    Im fine with Spain AI retaining most of her colonies as a result. When I started a 1800 Spain game in Eu3, Id also manage to keep them easily; but Id have been much more displeased if I had an unhistorical start because of pre-built crutches.
    The last hundred years or so of EU3 have always been an afterthought and the Napoleonic era is a joke.

    As acknowledged above I overreached with the complex 'end of empire' events, and this should indeed begin as a simple timeline extension, adding events and decisions in keeping with the established structure, and see what, if anything needs doing after that.

    Personally, though it should never be forced, I'd want AI Spanish America to fail most of the time. It was IMO the most important geopolitical change of the whole century. But I'm away soon and whoever takes charge after release will set the tone.

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  4. #44
    Gofer TairosAurelius's Avatar
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    Similarily, in Vicky2, we will all manage to reverse the collapse of the Ottomans, the USCA, etc. Should we be prevented by making these states collapse by event? No! Use the Paradox model; create a historical 1815 map; and embrace the fact that the world will be unrecognizable by 1836 just as Paradox embraces that it will be 1857.
    There should be a distinction between what the player can do and what the AI will do. If it's fairly easy for a player controlled Spain to retain her empire, that's one thing, though I think that would render the experience more than a bit vapid. But to have the Spain AI thumb its nose at history on a regular basis would put this in the realm of fantasy.
    Last edited by TairosAurelius; 26-07-2010 at 03:02.

  5. #45
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    Shouldnt Spain lose its empire because of conditions not events?

    If the american cultures are not accepted
    if spain is suffering from a broken economy from the gold inflation
    then it will lose its Empire without needing events.

    and really only the player could hold onto them, the AI would lose it everytime
    maybe even AI only events to make sure it was lost could help it along but i doubt theyd be needed
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  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    If the american cultures are not accepted
    if spain is suffering from a broken economy from the gold inflation
    then it will lose its Empire without needing events.
    That's not really how it happened. The power vacuum after the French invasion caused the upper class in the colonies to try and seize power themselves. Some succeeded (Paraguay) some didn't.

  7. #47
    Josephinist Andrelvis's Avatar
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    Spain also had severe problems at home during the period.
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  8. #48
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    The rebels are in an awful state.

    La Plata hold three provinces inside Alto Peru. Their forces under Rondeau are in the process of occupying Cochabamba province; historically they were mauled by Pezuela at Sipe-Sipe just nine days after the start of the scenario.

    Morillo is besieging Cartagena, which surrendered that December. Bogota fell next year.

    The distinction between federalist and centralist rebels probably won't have any practical effect; they will both be Colombian nationalists. I suppose the Liga Federal would be liberal or anarcho-liberal rebels.

    San Martin is available to Argentina but the 'Army of the Andes' doesn't exist yet. Bolivar is in Haiti. I'm half minded to have him spawn by event in Venezuela in the spring of 1816 so the Royalists don't just piss it.

    The Galapagos are uninhabited.

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  9. #49
    Second Lieutenant Lamartine's Avatar
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    That's looking pretty good.
    But for a Mod like this, the primary focus ought to be on the dull and arduous process of creating historical POPs
    Only when that's done can anything further be built.

  10. #50
    Josephinist Andrelvis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lamartine View Post
    That's looking pretty good.
    But for a Mod like this, the primary focus ought to be on the dull and arduous process of creating historical POPs
    Only when that's done can anything further be built.
    For starters, I think a good idea would be to keep the 1836 POP proportions, but diminish the size to fit with the 1815 total population numbers.
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  11. #51
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrelvis View Post
    For starters, I think a good idea would be to keep the 1836 POP proportions, but diminish the size to fit with the 1815 total population numbers.
    Yeah. In any case, we don't have the game yet, so there's not much to do but dick around with borders.

    North America and the Caribbean:



    The Canadian border with the wilderness is, politely, speculative. I can't find a decent map of the settlement of the Canadian west.

    American and Spanish control is based on the settled area plus outposts. There is a case to be made for starting Caribou (Maine) uncolonised. The blue line within US territory is the limit of the area granted statehood, plus Maine, which I forgot to take out.

    The dashed lines in the far west are the respective cores of Britain, the USA and Spain. Spain claimed much more but hadn't a hope in hell of making it stick. The USA claims Texas and the remainder of West Florida as well as the area gained as a result of the Louisiana purchase up to the Continental Divide. The 49th parallel is not yet the recognised border with British North America.

    Russian control of Alaska would probably be as 1836 but I'd need to see the provincial layout to be sure.

    Mexico's patriots are in no better shape than the South Americans. Guerrero should at least have a pretty respectable army, since he managed to stay in the field until Mexican independence, only to be murdered by his internal rivals.

    The Caribbean is roughly as it is in 1836, except for Hispaniola. Here Spain somehow managed to lose Santo Domingo to Haiti in the interim. Haiti itself is split between a kingdom and republic. This presents a difficulty because kingdom and republic co-existed for nine years, suggesting something more than mere rebels, yet it's hard to justify a separate tag for such an ephemeral state.
    Last edited by Earl Uhtred; 28-07-2010 at 16:26.

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  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    Mexico's patriots are in no better shape than the South Americans. Guerrero should at least have a pretty respectable army, since he managed to stay in the field until Mexican independence, only to be murdered by his internal rivals
    You'd also have Victoria in Puebla and the jungles of Veracruz
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  13. #53
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Here's a take on some of the leaders that were active in the Spanish colonies in 1815.

    SPANISH

    de la Pezuela, Joaquin - confident / artillerist
    Morillo, Pablo - brutish / school of offence
    Osorio, Mariano - impetuous / professor
    de Tristan, Juan Pio - careless / politician
    de Iturbide, Agustin - audacious / corrupt
    Vacaro, Antonio (admiral) - resourceful / gifted administrator

    PATRIOT / GUERRILLA

    Bolivar, Simon - brilliant / natural born leader
    Guerrero, Vicente - dauntless / innovative tactician

    ARGENTINIAN (inc Liga Federal and Chilean emigres)

    de San Martin, Jose - intelligent / school of offence
    Rondeau, Jose - unruly / politician
    Artigas, Jose Gervasio (LF) - stalwart / cavalry school
    de Alvear, Carlos Maria - able / rising star
    Carrera, Jose Miguel (LF) - clever / disgraced (representing powerful enemies)
    Belgrano, Manuel - chivalrous / gifted administrator
    de GŁemes, Martin Miguel - charismatic / cavalry school
    O'Higgins, Bernardo - audacious / powerful friends

    EDIT:
    You'd also have Victoria in Puebla and the jungles of Veracruz
    I'm not sure he controlled a province-size area at this date?

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    That leaves us with the problem of the many countries that split off from newly independent viceroyalties, even if you want to elevate the various captaincies to tags.

    Having Spanish America ruled by four or five vast creole-run satellites might actually make it less likely to see an independent Venezuela, Texas or Chile by 1836 than putting all those areas and their problems in Spain's hands.
    I'm not sure: they could just be clobbered by general "dissolution" events, like the United States of Central America get in the vanilla - it might be a bit deterministic, but it would make it near certain that they'd split under AI control, but players would be able to try to hold them together.

  15. #55
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    Earl, as it looks like we shall both be working on 1815 scenarios I thought I'd ask what you had planned to do regarding sparsely colonised territories (or even just territorial outposts) such as much of Australia - even the coast - and the unorganised, unincorporated territories of the United States.

    Personally, I am loathed to give the US a shit load of land going west in 1815; being located where it is, they'd still have the first - and easiest - shot at colonising it. I might give them a bit, but generally I'm just sticking with the actual states present in 1815 and perhaps a few bordering colonial provinces, depending on how spread out the frontiers were then (I have plenty of maps for this, just not off the top of my head).

    As for Australia and suchlike - I think other colonial powers (primarily the French and Dutch) should be able to have a shot at colonising other parts of Oceania. The British presence in 1815 was precarious at best, and certainly doesn't warrant the entire continent being British - as Paradox have chosen to do in 1836.

    Thoughts?

    Austen.

  16. #56
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austen View Post
    Earl, as it looks like we shall both be working on 1815 scenarios I thought I'd ask what you had planned to do regarding sparsely colonised territories (or even just territorial outposts) such as much of Australia - even the coast - and the unorganised, unincorporated territories of the United States.

    Personally, I am loathed to give the US a shit load of land going west in 1815; being located where it is, they'd still have the first - and easiest - shot at colonising it. I might give them a bit, but generally I'm just sticking with the actual states present in 1815 and perhaps a few bordering colonial provinces, depending on how spread out the frontiers were then (I have plenty of maps for this, just not off the top of my head).

    As for Australia and suchlike - I think other colonial powers (primarily the French and Dutch) should be able to have a shot at colonising other parts of Oceania. The British presence in 1815 was precarious at best, and certainly doesn't warrant the entire continent being British - as Paradox have chosen to do in 1836.

    Thoughts?

    Austen.
    I agree. As you can see above, the US and British North America are dammed up in the east, though their pretensions extend all the way to the Rockies. The extent of actual US control was based in part on this map:

    http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/natio...101a_large.jpg

    Which suggests settlement in 1815 indeed didn't extend much outside the areas already made states, except in Missouri.

    Haven't given much thought to Australia yet, but I anticipate only a handful of provinces in the south-east will be settled. NZ is empty.

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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    I'm not sure he controlled a province-size area at this date?
    Well that's the problem with representing what was in 1815 essentially a guerilla campaign. The rebellion was at its nadir but, as I understand it, Victoria controlled large sections of the Veracruz jungle from 1814-1818 and there was almost constant low-intensity conflict. Never took a major urban centre though

    Victoria himself was definitely active at the time, was one of the senior rebel leaders, and later became the first Mexican president. So he should be on the list at least
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  18. #58
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ComradeOm View Post
    Well that's the problem with representing what was in 1815 essentially a guerilla campaign. The rebellion was at its nadir but, as I understand it, Victoria controlled large sections of the Veracruz jungle from 1814-1818 and there was almost constant low-intensity conflict. Never took a major urban centre though

    Victoria himself was definitely active at the time, was one of the senior rebel leaders, and later became the first Mexican president. So he should be on the list at least
    I guess we could just about flog him Tulancingo province, though they didn't control the city.

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  19. #59
    Second Lieutenant Lamartine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austen View Post
    As for Australia and suchlike - I think other colonial powers (primarily the French and Dutch) should be able to have a shot at colonising other parts of Oceania. The British presence in 1815 was precarious at best, and certainly doesn't warrant the entire continent being British - as Paradox have chosen to do in 1836.
    The Swan River Settlement (later Perth) was founded in 1829 largely to keep the French out. Paradox's modelling of Australia in 1836 is a bit tenuous, and aimed at ensuring a historically British outcome. If we run with the notion of marking parts of Australia that were British 'claimed' but not settled. After all, in 1815 only a small part of NSW had been explored


    But a large part had been claimed


    I would suggest going with the "claims" method, myself.

  20. #60
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Focus on SE Asia and Oceania...

    Clio had it thus

    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a.../Indonesia.jpg

    http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...mer/SEAsia.jpg



    In my opinion, the reach of the colonial powers is overstated even for 1836 and not just in Australia. Though for some reason the Dutch weren't given Pontianak, which they did in fact control. Ho hum.

    Nevertheless, we must take it as a baseline so I'm erring on the side of the Europeans with this. That's why you'll see the Dutch in Lampung and in control of most of Celebes. One'd be quite justified paring them back not to mention adding in the Sulu / Maguindanao / Siak sultanates but that may be one for VIP2. As it is we only need one new tag for this area, Palembang.

    EDIT: Possibly one or two more for the remaining sultanates on Java. Also, give Gunungsitoli to the Dutch to forestall any nonsensical colonial cock sparring with the Brits.

    EDIT EDIT: Sod it, let Sulu be in. Let's pretend the Spanish conquered it before 1836.

    Technically the British still controlled Java and would not hand it back until 1816, but that's a level of detail we needn't pursue.

    EDIT: The Dutch can have Padang, too. The British actually held it until 1819 but since it was transferred as part of the general restoration of prewar borders I suppose the Dutch should have it. Only Bencoolen remained to be traded away in the 1820s.



    The Portuguese, of course, should have East Timor. East of this section as far as the coast of South America almost everything is as it is in 1836, the Spanish in Palawan and the Marianas. All the other Pacific islands are, I believe, uncolonised, except Hawaii.

    East Asia won't take long to sort out politically. China is quiet and it, Japan and Korea have the same borders as in 1836. Southeast Asia, however, is pretty interesting in 1815. No changes to the east, but Burma is immense, extending into northeastern India. But that's for another day.
    Last edited by Earl Uhtred; 31-07-2010 at 13:09. Reason: swapped image

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