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Thread: 1815 - Concert of Europe scenario, research thread

  1. #1
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    1815 - Concert of Europe scenario, research thread

    Tip of the hat to Lamartine for the name.



    Other mods have already proposed to extend the timeframe. This will, however, be as far as possible in keeping with the vanilla game, taking the 1836 POP and political setup and its economy as a baseline, and making only essential additions to, for example, the tech tree.

    Tempting as it is to correct what many see as deficiencies, like the incorporation of Norway into Sweden and the absence of a separate tag for the East India Company, that brings the danger of 'mission creep' and will be avoided.

    Because we don't know nearly enough about the game yet, we are more or less restricted to internal politics, leadership and the general political setup, assuming Clio was adopted without modification for those areas we have not yet been shown as screenshots.

    I'm almost certain to be indisposed for at least a month after the release date so will have little or no time to do the spade work. This thread is purely for sharing research and discussion.

    The start date would be the [EDIT] Second Treaty of Paris - 20th November 1815 - with a few little problems left to straighten out in Europe and Latin America in a state of chaos. Serbia too is fighting its independence war.

    The twenty extra years would take in a Spanish civil war, the independence of every Latin American state, Texas, Greece and the Romanians, the high noon of reaction in Europe, the beginnings of the Industrial Revolution, the consolidation of Company rule in India, the rise of Mohammed Ali and the destruction of the remnants of Polish independence.
    Last edited by Earl Uhtred; 27-07-2010 at 18:03.

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  2. #2
    Pure Evil Genius Jinnai's Avatar
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    So is this mod just about adding 20+ years and relevant items or more?
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    Banned Austen's Avatar
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    ~ explodes with rage ~



    Austen.

  4. #4
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    No need to do that, old boy. As I understand it your mod is far deeper than this one, which is (as Jinnai surmised) a simple timeline extension. You can even pinch from it, I don't think anyone will mind.

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    Banned Austen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    No need to do that, old boy. As I understand it your mod is far deeper than this one, which is (as Jinnai surmised) a simple timeline extension. You can even pinch from it, I don't think anyone will mind.
    Only messing, pal.

    I will of course contribute anything I find/use. I quite concur with the idea of a universal research thread like this. I wouldn't be against similar threads for other scenario dates, also.

    Austen.

  6. #6
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Major political changes in Europe 1815-1836:



    NETHERLANDS
    Belgian Revolution 1830-
    Luxemburg (within the German Confederation; maybe therefore Dutch vassal until Belgian revolution)

    BRITAIN
    Great Reform Act 1832

    POLAND
    Polish rising and end of Congress Poland 1830-1831. (Should Congress Poland be a Russian vassal in 1815?)

    SAXONY
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congres...h-Saxon_crisis
    Polish-Saxon crisis unresolved

    FRANCE
    July Revolution 1830

    IBERIA
    Spanish-Portuguese border dispute
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivenz...of_sovereignty
    Spanish Civil War 1820-23

    RUSSIA
    Decembrist revolt 1825
    War with Turkey 1827, Treaty of Adrianople, acquisition of Danube delta and towns in the Caucasus 1829
    Reduction of Circassia

    BALKANS
    Autonomy of Moldavia and Wallachia 1829
    Ongoing Serbian rising, autonomy 1817, expansion 1833
    Greek Revolution, foreign interventions and internecine war 1821-, independence 1829

    ITALY
    Two Sicilies kingdom proclaimed March 1816 (possibly not worth representation)
    Unrest, revolution and Sicilian rebellion 1820

    NORTH AFRICA
    French invasion of Algeria beginning 1830
    Turkish recovery of Libya 1835
    Egyptian expansion under Muhammad Ali (Nile Valley, Syria, Arabia), involvement in Greece, growing tensions vs Emperor

    Couple of nifty vintage maps of the expansion of the EIC.



    That still leaves a ten-year black hole of course, I have a number of far more detailed maps here for 1815 but they all need scanning.

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  7. #7
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Russian control in the Caucasus. Source: Dent Atlas of Russian History.

    Whether by accident or design OHG's division here works really well.

    Black line: Russian control in 1815, white line: 1836.

    EDIT: Lankaran should be Persian in 1815. Gyumri and points south should also be Persian; the rest of the border area Turkish.



    So we already have problems, because if the early shot above is still in force, vanilla won't try to represent the large areas still ruled by the Circassians in 1836. This is actually a step backwards from V1, which had a one-province 'Georgia' in Sukhumi.

    Do we carry this mistake all the way back to 1815 or do we add in 'Circassia' and 'Daghestan' even though they're out of wack with vanilla?
    Last edited by Earl Uhtred; 18-07-2010 at 14:12.

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  8. #8
    Misc 1815 maps






    (Beautiful map - missing Krakow).




    Latest loss of land is Georgia circa 1809, and the next loss would be Serbian autonomy in 1821 I believe.
    Last edited by Alerias; 17-07-2010 at 18:55.

  9. #9
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Oh excellent, I was looking for something like the last one there. Thanks

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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    Oh excellent, I was looking for something like the last one there. Thanks
    No problem.

    These were just Googled, but any maps you need I can probably find on request too. Alternate History groups, in particular, are drowning in thousands of blank and political maps, archived for every year in relevant history. Theyre a great source of rare gems when you need obscure maps; but 1815 is definitely NOT an obscure year, so its even easier.

    Would be glad to help.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Andrelvis's Avatar
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    I think it would be better if the scenario started on (IIRC) 20th of November of 1815, when everything was settled. By 1815, you already have a few censuses for POPs that you can use.

    I think a good way to go about this is, when closer census data is lacking, to take the data for the 1836 POPs and then adjust the POPs proportionally to fit the size of the total population estimated in that country or region.
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  12. #12
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrelvis View Post
    I think it would be better if the scenario started on (IIRC) 20th of November of 1815, when everything was settled. By 1815, you already have a few censuses for POPs that you can use.

    I think a good way to go about this is, when closer census data is lacking, to take the data for the 1836 POPs and then adjust the POPs proportionally to fit the size of the total population estimated in that country or region.
    On further reflection, agreed. I actually considered moving it all the way to December 16 and the proclamation of the Brazil-Portugal union but the final treaty of Paris makes far more sense.

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  13. #13
    Second Lieutenant Lamartine's Avatar
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    Some useful links

    USA Census: 1)Productivity and Manufacture in 1810, and 2) population trends
    1) http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/decennial/1810.html
    2) http://www.census.gov/population/www...iscendata.html

    3) Australian Population retrograde projections (excluding Indigenous Australians) beginning in 1788 can be downloaded here:
    3) http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@....8?OpenDocument

    4) Population Census of Lower Canada for 1790 5) and for 1825
    4) http://estat.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-win/c...ish/A17901.HTM
    5) http://estat.statcan.gc.ca/cgi-win/c...h/A18254T1.HTM

    6) A detailed, if poorly formatted, analysis of Great European Treaties, the Treaty of Vienna (1815) is the second chapter and details many geo-political issues and events of the time.
    6) http://clclibrary-org-works.angelfire.com/treaties.html

    7) A very basic and introductory but well animated map of Europe from 1815 to 1848, 8) and other maps
    7) http://www.the-map-as-history.com/de...me01/index.php
    8) http://www.the-map-as-history.com/ma...ess-vienna.php

    9) Text of the Treaty of Vienna (1815)
    9) http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Final_...ress_of_Vienna

    P.S: Thanks for the OP shout out

  14. #14
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Great, keep 'em coming.

    It's clear that balancing Latin America is going to be the most challenging part of this project. Being largely ignorant of this doesn't help.

    The situation in 1815 is so complex it makes my ears bleed. As if the constant permutations of liberal juntas, reactionary juntas, liberal and conservative burghers, colorados, liberal royalists, reactionary royalists, foreign volunteers, Indians, slaves and rank opportunists weren't enough, you have figures like Bolivar, Cochrane and San Martin who due to their constant manoeuvrings can't really be identified with any particular tag.

    Do we treat the huge, nominally loyal tracts of Latin America as being Spanish colonies, or in the name of smooth development do we start New Spain, New Granada, Brazil and Peru off as Spanish / Portuguese satellites that are liable to try and break free?



    I started with the Southern Cone, because it's here the only unambiguously independent states exist in 1815.

    Everything else is still ambiguous, however. Should the Liga Federal be represented by rebels, or should we use (for example) Uruguay's tag? Can the Supreme Director and proto-Argentina be said to have been 'on the same side' at this date? What are the exact boundaries of the uncivilised zone?

    Haven't even started thinking about what's going on within the Spanish-controlled area at the moment.
    Last edited by Earl Uhtred; 27-07-2010 at 18:02.

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  15. #15
    Banned Austen's Avatar
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    That map seriously messes with my head.

    Can you use something a little easier on the eye, please?

    Austen.

  16. #16
    Chile goes a bit too much south if you ask me, they didn't control that much. It makes even less sense if you start putting all that land under native control in Argentina.

  17. #17
    Field Marshal Andrelvis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    Do we treat the huge, nominally loyal tracts of Latin America as being Spanish colonies, or in the name of smooth development do we start New Spain, New Granada, Brazil and Peru off as Spanish / Portuguese satellites that are liable to try and break free?
    They weren't just nominally loyal, they were actually loyal in 1815. New Spain and Peru should by all means be a part of Spain.

    As for Brazil, it should be a part of Portugal, but not a colony, and Portugal's capital should be Rio de Janeiro (the court had moved there in 1808, and would only leave in 1821, due to the Oporto Revolution).
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  18. #18
    Forefather Earl Uhtred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austen View Post
    That map seriously messes with my head.

    Can you use something a little easier on the eye, please?

    Austen.
    You're not epileptic are you? I can't do much about the colour of the background map, but we can go for a mellower font, sure.

    @ Prinz Wilhelm: you're probably right. The loyalist fortress at Chiloe was strategically important but an outpost just the same.

    However, Valdivia was a well established colony. If it's anything like V1, low life ratings prevent colonisation until the higher tech levels, and I expect the Andean provinces to have crappy ones. This should prevent ludicrous Chilean expansion.

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  19. #19
    Second Lieutenant Lamartine's Avatar
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    I think the goal with South America ought to be creating a system where the AI will, in the absence of player intervention, tend to produce historically accurate borders. That means including territory in existing nations that was at the time tenuously controlled at best; satelliting nations when plausible; cores for breakaway nations in place from day 1; and creating Decisions that the AI will almost always accept that result in historical borders for rebelling nations.

    When the player has anything to do in South America, however, they ought to find it very easy to push history off course and do things in a much more sandbox manner.

  20. #20
    Banned Austen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    You're not epileptic are you? I can't do much about the colour of the background map, but we can go for a mellower font, sure.
    I'm not sure if that was a joke, but no I am not epileptic. I just have great difficulty in distinguishing provinces and borders from one another when they're represented in those ugly, manic colours.

    I am all for maps, but not like that. I assume it's a Clio (?) design map.

    Austen.

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