Ottomania

[Tunch Khan]

BTW Tunch - I think for an Ottoman fascist party "Ittihad-ı Etrak Fırkası" would sound better...

You would make Ziya Gökalp turn in his grave. An Arabic name for pan-Turkic fascists?

Speaking of the devil, what an irony is to have a Kurd, Gökalp, as the mastermind of Turkish racism. I guess this is just another sign that most educated Kurds of those times have considered themselves in the same cultural group as Turks.

[Tunch Khan]

What's the English for that ?

It's the Arabic for the Party for the Union of Turks or Pan-Turkic Party.

[Kurdistani]

You would make Ziya Gökalp turn in his grave. An Arabic name for pan-Turkic fascists?

Speaking of the devil, what an irony is to have a Kurd, Gökalp, as the mastermind of Turkish racism. I guess this is just another sign that most educated Kurds of those times have considered themselves in the same cultural group as Turks.

1. Gökalp was not "pure" Kurd - not everyone from Diyarbakır is a Kurd ( Actually his mothers side was Kurdish and related to the Pırınççızade of Diyarbakır). An interesting side note - before 1908 it seems that Gökalp was a Kurdish nationalist. I have found some very interesting sources - including Halide Edip -

2. Ziya Göpalp was not a racist - He was certainly a nationalist and a Turkist - However, he did not have an "overly" racialised form of Turkish nationalism... Indeed, he wrote positively about Arab Turkish brotherhood as well as the richness of Kurdish culture... It is a shame so few people read Gökalp's writings - I would not say I was on the same page as him - but he is not what people think... His nationalism if fairly close to that of Mustafa Kemal...

3. Its fun but actually, I have never seen Bozkurtlar written in Ottoman Turkish - but I have seen "tevid-i etrak" (Pan Turkism) and "İttihad-i Etrak" (Union of Turks)... The name of the Turkish fascist party today does not have one word of Turkish in it .... Milliyetçi (Arabic) Hareket (Arabic) Partisi (French)....

[Kurdistani]

Kurds can be found at the root of all problems in Turkey

Islamism - Said-i Nursi

Militarism - İsmet İnonu

Turkism - Ziya Gökalp

Revolutionary Communist - Apo

Positivism - Abdullah Cevdet

Crappy Music - İbrahim Tatlises

[Kurdistani]

Anyhow back on track -

Any ideas for some more generals?

Mehmet Şerif Pasha maybe?
(A Ferik in the Ottoman Army and the founder of the İslihat-i Kanun-i Esasi Fırkası)

Miralay Sadık

Şamil Bedirhan

I will find some more with pictures

[Kurdistani]

Some more event ideas (Don't worry once I see the game and the code files - I will script them)) )

We certainly need a restoration of the Crimean Khanate event...

An Azerbaycan Amirate??
I read something interesting - Ever Pasha was apparently planning to put a relative of his on the throne of a puppet Azerbaycan (Russia Azerbaycan) -

Should we be thinking about Egyptian events by the way?

[Tunch Khan]

2. Ziya Göpalp was not a racist - He was certainly a nationalist and a Turkist - However, he did not have an "overly" racialised form of Turkish nationalism... Indeed, he wrote positively about Arab Turkish brotherhood as well as the richness of Kurdish culture... It is a shame so few people read Gökalp's writings - I would not say I was on the same page as him - but he is not what people think... His nationalism if fairly close to that of Mustafa Kemal...

I know, I was just messing with the old dude.

3. Its fun but actually, I have never seen Bozkurtlar written in Ottoman Turkish - but I have seen "tevid-i etrak" (Pan Turkism) and "İttihad-i Etrak" (Union of Turks)... The name of the Turkish fascist party today does not have one word of Turkish in it .... Milliyetçi (Arabic) Hareket (Arabic) Partisi (French)....

I still think we can come up with a better name for a fascist Ottoman party. I'll think about it.

Any ideas for some more generals?

Mehmet Şerif Pasha maybe?
(A Ferik in the Ottoman Army and the founder of the İslihat-i Kanun-i Esasi Fırkası)

Miralay Sadık

Şamil Bedirhan

I will find some more with pictures

You really want some Kurdish generals now, don't you? Ottoman armed forces had a number of Armenian generals, why not Kurds or Arabs... but let's make sure they were significant enough in the large picture so that we don't include every single name that pops up. Miralay for instance is a colonel, not even a general. How can we use them?

Some more event ideas (Don't worry once I see the game and the code files - I will script them)) )

We certainly need a restoration of the Crimean Khanate event...

In case Russia loses? Will the European powers allow that? I guess it depends. They didn't bother after the Crimean War, but a decisive Ottoman victory could dictate it's own conclusions. Why not.

An Azerbaycan Amirate??
I read something interesting - Ever Pasha was apparently planning to put a relative of his on the throne of a puppet Azerbaycan (Russia Azerbaycan) -

I doubt it would be an Emirate. Maybe another form of local government name. Enver's relative you mentioned is I believe his brother Nuri Killigil. He was leading the Ottoman Army in Caucasia and by the end of the war, Ottoman flags were raised in Baku and Dagestan.

Flag of pan-Turkic Musavat Party of Azerbaijan (1917-1922):


Flag of Azerbajian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1920-21.

Should we be thinking about Egyptian events by the way?

Only if they are related to Ottomans at this point, since I don't want us to get distracted too much on the neighbors. But eventually, yes, we could always add events for Egypt, Bulgaria, Albania and even for Persia.

[Kurdistani]

Mıralay Sadık was no Kurd - He was the founder of Haliskar Zabitan grubu -
BTW Field Marshall Zeki Pasha (Commander of the 6th Army under Abdulhamid II - and a Damat) - Is he on the list?

[Tunch Khan]

Mıralay Sadık was no Kurd - He was the founder of Haliskar Zabitan grubu -
BTW Field Marshall Zeki Pasha (Commander of the 6th Army under Abdulhamid II - and a Damat) - Is he on the list?

Yes, Zeki Pasha is on the list and we may add many more, depending on how much work is required to include them.

I don't think we should add a colonel to the list, especially when we already have literally hundreds of generals and admirals to sort from. We can always work on an event for the damned Halaskar Zabitan group.

[Tunch Khan]

In order to avoid further distraction and increase efficiency, I am going to propose a streamline for categorizing our priorities and helping us share the workload:


A) Primary Events & Decisions: This should be our main focus at the moment to offer a distinct and relatively historical taste of Ottomans to the players. These decision and events are the ones that are crucial to define the Victorian period of Ottoman history and those that address unique conditions which the Ottomans were subject to. In no particular order, here are my initial thoughts:

- Ottoman conflict with the runaway governor of Egypt
- Ottoman Political Reforms (Tanzimat, Islahat, etc.)
- Ottoman Military Reforms
- Ottoman Naval Reforms
- Ottoman Educational Reforms
- Rise of Nationalism in Balkans and Revolts
- Rise of Liberalism in Ottoman Empire
- Young Turks vs. Conservatives
- Constitutionalist Movements and Absolute Monarchists (Istibdad)
- Rise of Armenian Nationalist Movement and Revolts
- Rise of Turkish Nationalism
- Rise of Islamism and Use of Jihad as a Policy
- Ottomanism and Pan-Turkism
- CUP and Military Interventions
- Sick Man of Europe at the Center of European Balance of Power
- Eastern Question
- Ottoman Minorities and their European "Protectors"
- Foreign Missions, Schools and Traders in the Empire
- Revolts in Lebanon and Kurdish Revolts
- Hamidiye Regiments
- Berlin-Baghdad Railway and Hedjaz Railway
- Crimean War and War Debt
- Ottoman Bankruptcy and Foreign Interventions
- Foreign Investment and Monopolies on Ottoman Goods and Natural Resources
- Conflicts with Russian Policy towards Turkish Straits and potential Wars


B) Secondary Event & Decisions: These are all the remaining events or decisions which will have an impact on the game depending on choices the player picks. Events like Sultan's tour of Europe or the establishment of Secret Service (Teskilat-i Mahsusa) will be placed here. Basically, all other events that don't have a major outcome as the priority events.

C) Database: All the unit and navy names, political parties, leaders, province name corrections, event pictures, graphical additions go under this category as they are the least time consuming portion of the mod and I already have the basics covered. This field should not be a priority at the moment and we can always add bits and pieces as we see fit.

D) Flavor events: Anything from Florence Nightingale to the establishment of modern postal service or from Red Crescent to Donizetti Pasha goes under this category and we can spend some time on this once we have everything else covered.

[2ltben]

I intend to make my forays into Africa fully compatible with this mod.

[Austen]

Remember that you only need leaders for January 1st, 1836. Furthermore, don't give the Ottomans too many; they're supposed to be quite weak and to have lost effective control over many of their domains. Giving them dozens of leaders would be completely unfair. France only has about four according to OHgamer's AAR, and they're all average to poor.

Austen.

[Kurdistani]

On the issue of 'foreign debts' - I remember that there is in fact a game mechanic to work this out -

[Kurdistani]

Also I would say that the Yemen revolt should also be on the list -
If we can model sects and ethnicity - I would guess adding these

Assyrian (Orthodox and Catholic)
Zaza (Alevi)
Zeydi (Yemeni Arabs)
Southern and Northern Azeri
Anatolian Turkish
Yürük
Wahhabi
Yezdi

[Kurdistani]

Revolters - I am sure some will be in the game but we should think about what we need...

Turkey - also the question arises - what happens if the Ottoman Empire becomes a Republic - without collapsing - Clearly the Ottoman Republic Sounds strange - Maybe "The Turkish Empire" or "The Well Protected Domains" or "The Republic of the East" or "Anatolia" or the "Federation of Turkey" or the "Islamic Union"
Syria
Iraq
Kurdistan
Armenia
Trans-Jordan
Palestine
Israel (maybe some events about the build up of Jewish immigration to Palestine)
An "Arab federation"
Azadistan (Southern Azerbaycan)
Assyria (There were some plans to set up an Assyria state - they did not come to much)
Lebanon
Macadonia

[Kurdistani]

Remember that you only need leaders for January 1st, 1836. Furthermore, don't give the Ottomans too many; they're supposed to be quite weak and to have lost effective control over many of their domains. Giving them dozens of leaders would be completely unfair. France only has about four according to OHgamer's AAR, and they're all average to poor.

Austen.

Maybe we can make the Ottoman general alot weaker?

[Austen]

Maybe we can make the Ottoman general alot weaker?

Just give them a handful of weak leaders, and possibly an average-quality one if they indeed possessed one at that time. Do not - under any circumstances - spam them with a dozen or more quality generals (even if you indeed can pull up obscure examples of such men) as it will only serve to unbalance the game in favour of the Ottomans when at that time the advantage clearly lay with European powers.

Austen.

[Terminator]

as it will only serve to unbalance the game in favour of the Ottomans when at that time the advantage clearly lay with European powers.

Ottoman Empire was a European power too. At least partly. Hence the expression - "a sick man of Europe".

A purely Asian nation could not be a (sick or healthy) man of Europe, could it ?

[GxL]

Ottoman generals didnt weaker than european generals. Only difference between them are army tech levels.

[GxL]

And i think in vic2 generals will be generated via literacy and tech levels