If you don't have voting rights, no-one asks the citizens. Thus, if upper class (capitalists and...?) is happy in (Communist) Dictatorship and there isn't too much revolting going on, your Upper House will be Conservative. (In game terms)
Advantages to Totalitarianism?
- Thread starter Sid Meier
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If you don't have voting rights, no-one asks the citizens. Thus, if upper class (capitalists and...?) is happy in (Communist) Dictatorship and there isn't too much revolting going on, your Upper House will be Conservative. (In game terms)
As above, conservative in the 'we got power, quell all dissent and don't rock the boat' sense, not in any ideological sense.
I'm sorry, but this is how conservatives in upper-house work here. They are the ones who are content with the social and political reforms as they are in that moment. So conservatives in established proletarian dictatorship represent mainstream communists, while communists represent extremaly radical wing of communist party and liberals are former social democrats.
Upper-house is about relative stance towards current "constitution" and not textbook ideology.
Quoting the developer diary
Taking this at face value you could argue that Fascists, Anarcho-Liberals, reactionaries and communists will, albeit for different reasons, back or at least tolerate the government stripping reforms away no matter what its ideology. This is so plainly ridiculous I assumed King was talking from the non-revolutionary perspective, which is where everyone is in 1836.
Government is lower-house. Upper-house represent something slightly different. When people want to dissolve trade unions, they will support that move no matter what government does it, but that doesn't mean they will vote for that party to rule. Remeber that those two houses are separate and deal with separate problems.
And to quote King on the problem of shifting ideologies:
There were differing factions in the early USSR, and the possibilities of having different parties in the upper house is pleasing for that reason. People saw the USR as this monolithic political organization--it wasn't. There was the right wing, led by Bukharin, the left wing and the Trotskyites, and Stalin's centre. THe centre could be represented by conservatives, the right by liberals, and the trotskyites by socialists or democrats.
Okay I agree that the process should not be instantaneous but I would like to eventually reach the stable Totalitarian dictorship WITHIN the games timeline, this isn't a linear historical determinism game, but a game that is nonlinear, ahistorical and dynamic, thus if Communist revolution spreads in say Germany or England in 1880 I want to be able to have a stable Worker's People's Democratic Republic of Tyrrany by 1900 and if I mod the game and extend gametime to play that sandbox as long as I want as something stable assuming no external pressures (like wars or such to upset my utopia).
Beyond that creating a totalitarian state could quite possibly be a goal for a dictatorship, so the ability to create a stable dictatorship would be amazing, especially for the golden age of the enlightened dictatorship (not to say it was good for anyone, but you had a large number of successful authoritarian regimes that didn't base their power over ideology in the period)
I think the problem is if you actually have to let them win. If it was correctly implemented, you should have no choice about it.
Agreed. If Germany goes through a Communist revolution in 1900 then there ought to be a massive civil war first, but after it's won, totalitarian policies would let you quench militancy and consciousness. (Internal pacification)
I wonder if it will be possible in the game, and what the gameplay objective of a Communist Dictatorship would be
If you successfully revolutionized a Great Power like Germany or France, your goal in the remaining game years should be to super-industrialize your country and spread the revolution !!
From reading the Rise and Fall of the great Powers there is an actually pretty good advantages to totalitarianism, basically the USSR albeit at the cost of millions of deaths had managed to reduce private consumption of GDP to lower single digits, an impossible feat for anyother country and essentially meant that they could as a state invest and redirect ALL of the nations resources towards growth and its military in ways WWI germany would have found impossible to do.
IF a communist revolution happened in England, it would end in a Totalitarian State.
but on topic
IF some extreme repressive form of government is to exist, it should not depend on ideology, but situation.
You should need say, atleast three mass rising event-flags, a civil war recently won event-flag and a really high war weariness
and it would be a decision, with quite high immediate costs, which changed government and lowered militancy immediately, with the cost of it rising later on if the promise of absolute stability isnt fulfilled.
but on topic
IF some extreme repressive form of government is to exist, it should not depend on ideology, but situation.
You should need say, atleast three mass rising event-flags, a civil war recently won event-flag and a really high war weariness
and it would be a decision, with quite high immediate costs, which changed government and lowered militancy immediately, with the cost of it rising later on if the promise of absolute stability isnt fulfilled.
Overly complicated, Soviet totalitarianism was a result of dedicating huge national resources to establishing and maintaining state terror against the populace, this can be best abstracted ingame by more closely under dictatorships by tying militancy to crime fighting budget.
And also attach an additional cost to education to represent state propoganda in the school system and society.
It shouldnt be about Russia, nothing specific, it needs to be generic, to fit onto several different situtations, so that it has a place in the game.
"Soviet" is jsut the russian word for "Council" and is simply a generic catchall term that is retroactively used to describe any totalitarian communist regime in the common vernecular.
However I should point out that a proletarian dictatorship IS the enevitable transitionary government for ANY AND ALL communist revolutions according to the Communist Manifesto so yes, this is already considering unique situations.
However it would be up to the player if they wanna go ALL the way or just part of the way, maybe some players would prefer something akin to the Socialist USA from the WWI harry turtledove novels or simply want to recreate Soviet Russia earlier or a Democratic People's Republic of Deutschland along Soviet lines (up to the players understanding of it).
However I should point out that a proletarian dictatorship IS the enevitable transitionary government for ANY AND ALL communist revolutions according to the Communist Manifesto so yes, this is already considering unique situations.
However it would be up to the player if they wanna go ALL the way or just part of the way, maybe some players would prefer something akin to the Socialist USA from the WWI harry turtledove novels or simply want to recreate Soviet Russia earlier or a Democratic People's Republic of Deutschland along Soviet lines (up to the players understanding of it).
Rosa Luxemburg's Communist system wouldnt have been totalartarian, and im given to understand most the russian communists didnt want the soviets to go that way either, thats why there was a civil war.
and hitlers germany was totalarian without being communist.
But its a game and it needs things for ALL possibilities, not just historical ones.
A totalatarian system of government and reforms shouldnt be limited to communism
and communism shouldnt be limited to totalatarianism.
it should be able to represent ten different but similar things
not just one
and hitlers germany was totalarian without being communist.
But its a game and it needs things for ALL possibilities, not just historical ones.
A totalatarian system of government and reforms shouldnt be limited to communism
and communism shouldnt be limited to totalatarianism.
it should be able to represent ten different but similar things
not just one
That isnt the purpose of this thread, this threads purpose is to argue that Ricky 1, when you went Totalitarian (Proletarian Dictatorship) there was no incentive to do so as your country was flooded with rebels.
I am arguing that there should be simple gameplay impleplentations so that by funding education and crime fgighting to full but at a higher cost to keep down dissent/rr to represent the rapid expansion of state and secret police powers.
This is the assumption that youve choosen Propoganda Press, Banned all opposite parties, and all trade unions but the Communist controled ones, which is synomenous with totalitarianism.
If a player wants to make something more akin to Democratic Socialism then they can choose the alternative reforms.
Get it? I am discussing only the one kind that should be possible but arent worth it for reasons that break immersion, if you want one of the other ones you can ALREADY do so by choosing your reforms properly.
I am arguing that there should be simple gameplay impleplentations so that by funding education and crime fgighting to full but at a higher cost to keep down dissent/rr to represent the rapid expansion of state and secret police powers.
This is the assumption that youve choosen Propoganda Press, Banned all opposite parties, and all trade unions but the Communist controled ones, which is synomenous with totalitarianism.
If a player wants to make something more akin to Democratic Socialism then they can choose the alternative reforms.
Get it? I am discussing only the one kind that should be possible but arent worth it for reasons that break immersion, if you want one of the other ones you can ALREADY do so by choosing your reforms properly.
In light of the changes being made between Victoria 1 and 2, a proletarian dictatorship will probably result in a massive rebel uprising (akin to a civil war, perhaps), which, if defeated, will hopefully lead to stability, or at least greatly reduced revolt risk.
I simply can't see how any regime based on something so drastic and society overturning as communism could exist without totalitarism. It's nice that some communists say it, but that is just theory. I'm glad that Paradox did stay on the safe side and didn't go the "theoretical way."
Well actually they did not say anything about what it takes to bring peace to a country after a long series of uprisings. We were told how the rebel system now works (see most recent screenshots) but not how an uprising is concluded, or what the effects on MIL would be. That remains to be seen until either the devs comment on it, or until game release.
Agreed... people like to harp about how some communists expected their revolution to happen without much bloodshed... but in reality those communists would be forced to emulate the bolshevist brutality very quickly, because otherwise the anti-communists would have swept them away.