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  1. #21
    "GRRRR ME WANTS POLLS!" Biges's Avatar
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    Waiting for the game to be released in box in Czechia would be a long waiting, especially if someone has a great idea of creating a localized version. eBay is a good source of boxed games. New titles cost as for example on Amazon, but the P&P is sometimes much lower.
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  2. #22
    OT's own Sgt. Schultz telesien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biges View Post
    Waiting for the game to be released in box in Czechia would be a long waiting, especially if someone has a great idea of creating a localized version. eBay is a good source of boxed games. New titles cost as for example on Amazon, but the P&P is sometimes much lower.
    Oh yes. Damn localizations. I've yet to see one that is decently done. Also not all languages have structure for this step. That is main reason why I predict major changes in some languages and maye extinction of other is next hundred or so years

    Quote Originally Posted by Hertog Jan View Post
    ...In short, to me digital distribution is just another sign of the downside of globalisation in which a few dominant players (i.e. Steam) try to knock out the 'laggard' competition who have to 'go with the flow' or die in 'backwardness'....
    Well that is called progress... Someone thinks of something and when people like it, they will use it. It is natural that the first players have advantage over the rest of market and can claim larger part of it. As long as other are free to enter the market, your view isn't justified and noone can bully anyone.
    "'Religious faith. Belief in daemons, belief in spirits, belief in an afterlife and all the other trappings of a preternatural existence, simply existed to make us all more comfortable and content in the face of a measureless cosmos. They were sops, bolsters for the soul, crutches for the intellect, prayers and lucky charms to help us through the darkness. But we have witnessed the cosmos now, my friends. We have passed amongst it. We have learned and understood the fabric of reality. We have seen the stars from behind, and found they have no clockwork mechanisms, no golden chariots carrying them abroad. We have realized there is no need for god, or any gods, and by extension no use any longer for daemons or devils or spirits."


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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hertog Jan View Post
    Yeah, until your computer crashes and you lose the game along with the money you've paid for the download. So I'm with Rosas on this (boter bij de vis. Don't you agree, Rosas?). You guys must think of us as primitive barbarians with a strange desire to remain in the Stone Age, but with a physical copy of the game you actually buy something with your money. That doesn't mean nothing can happen with it. You can drop the disc or damage it in other ways, but at least it will be your own awkwardness that does it. On the other hand, your computer may experience problems that may render you unable to save or salvage the precious files. A somewhat convincing counter-argument may be that you can still store the files on USB or burn it onto a CD, but that would fall under the 'effort' Rosas described. You might as well go to a store and buy a prepared disc.

    Mind you, I do understand why digital distribution has emerged. Gaming companies want to cut out the middlemen and cut the costs/increase profit margins. But that doesn't mean it necessarily serves the customers best. It's not that I don't trust Paradox or Gamersgate, but I still like to know that I haven't been forced into buying something that doesn't exist or is malfunctioning (is there a return policy, for corrupted files, with digital distribution?). Paradox may be trustworthy, but not everbody is. Look at Steam. On the surface there is nothing wrong with it, but if one looks at Steam's tactics one can easily see that they are positioning themselves to be the new middlemen in the gaming industry (i.e. you can't play their games without their software, we Dutch speakers would call that gedwongen winkelnering). In short, to me digital distribution is just another sign of the downside of globalisation in which a few dominant players (i.e. Steam) try to knock out the 'laggard' competition who have to 'go with the flow' or die in 'backwardness'. I hope I don't indicate any distrust in Paradox here, because I consider them to be people that will have to adapt or perish at their own risk.

    I (and Rosas too, I think) resist this trend and even though I will probably be forced to go along as well, I still think the old-fashioned what you see is what you get way of doing business is still the most rewarding for anyone involved. You are of course free to disagree, de gustibus non est disputandum.
    You nailed it, exactly my thoughts.
    Steam really is whack btw, the person who came up with DLC should be kidnapped and tortured, I liked the good 'ol expansion packs alot better !
    But I might just be a classical player hence I play DOS games off the original CD. Ik vind persoonlijk dat je toch wat waar voor je geld mag krijgen hoor, zo'n doos en die ellenlange handleidingen die ze er (vroeger allesinds) bijstaken dat gaf toch een meerwaarde aan het geheel!


    Rosas_

  4. #24
    Field Marshal wilcoxchar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hertog Jan View Post
    Yeah, until your computer crashes and you lose the game along with the money you've paid for the download.
    Ummm, in all digital distribution services, you can download the game again at no extra cost. This is much better than CDs, where due to idiotic copy protection services, you might not even be able to install and run it on multiple computers.

    In short, to me digital distribution is just another sign of the downside of globalisation in which a few dominant players (i.e. Steam) try to knock out the 'laggard' competition who have to 'go with the flow' or die in 'backwardness'. I hope I don't indicate any distrust in Paradox here, because I consider them to be people that will have to adapt or perish at their own risk.
    Yeah, for retailers maybe. But for developers and gamers digital distribution is a great service. Because the cost to make and release a game is lowered a lot, independent developers have much more room to succeed so the gamer gets a lot more variety of games to choose from. And this is an integral part in the business and economic cycle anyway. It's called creative destruction. Some of the more old-fashioned businesses are going to fall, yes, but overall there is more availability and innovation at the end of the process. Or would you still rather be using gramaphones and typewriters instead of iPods and computers.
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  5. #25

    Digital Distribution

    I'm interested to see that the primary critique of digital distribution companies is that if your computer crashes...you lose the game.
    This is rubbish.
    You can redownload as much as you like on both gamersgate and steam. I admit steam is a bit of a pain sometimes having to use their software etc but at least it auto updates with patches for games. Gamersgate however has none of those problems and works fine with unlimited downloads. The last company to change their policy on repeat downloads was Matrix Games but my computer crashed about 6 months ago and they were quite happy to let me redownload.

  6. #26
    I pretty much only buy digital now, way more reliable. All it takes is one lost or scratched disc and your game is gone. So much easier to just tell steam or gamers gate to download and install all your games than deal with boxes and disks. It's a godsend when you move too! I had to resort to torrents for many of the boxed games I bought back before DD was common, no idea where the disks have run off to or they've developed little scratches here and there. And I'll download a no-cd crack before I have to juggle having the dvd in the drive to play my games.

    With digital distribution your house could burn to the ground but the moment you get a new computer, all your games are waiting for you.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldmaarschalk View Post
    You do know that you can then re-download the game again.
    Sounds great. Any link to support your claim ? Infinite download possibility would definitely have me switching to digital-only softs.

  8. #28
    OT's own Sgt. Schultz telesien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerkus View Post
    Sounds great. Any link to support your claim ? Infinite download possibility would definitely have me switching to digital-only softs.
    Personal experience not good enough?
    "'Religious faith. Belief in daemons, belief in spirits, belief in an afterlife and all the other trappings of a preternatural existence, simply existed to make us all more comfortable and content in the face of a measureless cosmos. They were sops, bolsters for the soul, crutches for the intellect, prayers and lucky charms to help us through the darkness. But we have witnessed the cosmos now, my friends. We have passed amongst it. We have learned and understood the fabric of reality. We have seen the stars from behind, and found they have no clockwork mechanisms, no golden chariots carrying them abroad. We have realized there is no need for god, or any gods, and by extension no use any longer for daemons or devils or spirits."


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  9. #29
    Generalfeldmarschall RELee's Avatar
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    http://www.gamersgate.com/info/faq

    #
    How many times can I download and/or install my games?

    Any game bought on GamersGate is yours to download and install as many times you like. Some games are protected with an activation limit, but that limit is easily reset with an email to support@gamersgate.com
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  10. #30

    Steam

    If I format my hard drive or get a new computer, will I need to purchase my games again?
    Since games purchased on Steam are a one time charge, you do not need to purchase any games you already own again. To access your games after a hard drive format or when you get a new computer, simply log in to your existing Steam account and then download your games again.

  11. #31
    Second Lieutenant Hertog Jan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by telesien View Post
    well that is called progress... Someone thinks of something and when people like it, they will use it. It is natural that the first players have advantage over the rest of market and can claim larger part of it. As long as other are free to enter the market, your view isn't justified and noone can bully anyone.
    Guilty as charged, I am a bit of a conservative guy, but I don't clamp down on progress perse. Never forget that progress is not identical to change. Things can change for the worse. And as you can see I am on the internet, so I am not a Neanderthal after all.

    It is certainly true that CDs get scratched, but by the time I'm through with a CD, either a sequel is out or the game is too old for the OS. Anyway, by that time I've recouped the price I paid for the game thousandfold in terms of enjoyment. I am certainly willing to admit that digital distribution allows small companies like Paradox to circumvent major retail chains and give them the ability to reinvest more, but retailers can offer you advice in person when needed (that is when the problem isn't too specific to the game). I guess when it comes to new developments I adopt a 'wait and see attitude' and see whether new things work out.

    I am an economics student in daily life, so I tend to be more critical to new economic developments than most (nobody is going to tell me that the rip-off culture in today's financial sector is an improvement on what the sector was like 30 years ago). Not having much experience with digital downloads has lead me to be overly critical to the idea perhaps, but I maintain my criticism towards Steam. From a technical perspective Steam may be an improvement, but try to look at it from the economic perspective. Why all the software? To control access to gameplay (it's difficult to play games distributed from Steam without resorting to their software). When you are talking about free entry to markets, I see in this case a clear attempt to monopolise the market by Steam. And once it gets big enough it will do what all monopolists do: stop competitors from entering, save costs on 'unnecessary' expenses (that includers costumer service since costumers have nowhere to run) and distribute lackluster games (sounds like an EA clone, eh).

  12. #32
    OT's own Sgt. Schultz telesien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hertog Jan View Post
    Guilty as charged, I am a bit of a conservative guy, but I don't clamp down on progress perse. Never forget that progress is not identical to change. Things can change for the worse. And as you can see I am on the internet, so I am not a Neanderthal after all.

    It is certainly true that CDs get scratched, but by the time I'm through with a CD, either a sequel is out or the game is too old for the OS. Anyway, by that time I've recouped the price I paid for the game thousandfold in terms of enjoyment. I am certainly willing to admit that digital distribution allows small companies like Paradox to circumvent major retail chains and give them the ability to reinvest more, but retailers can offer you advice in person when needed (that is when the problem isn't too specific to the game). I guess when it comes to new developments I adopt a 'wait and see attitude' and see whether new things work out.

    I am an economics student in daily life, so I tend to be more critical to new economic developments than most (nobody is going to tell me that the rip-off culture in today's financial sector is an improvement on what the sector was like 30 years ago). Not having much experience with digital downloads has lead me to be overly critical to the idea perhaps, but I maintain my criticism towards Steam. From a technical perspective Steam may be an improvement, but try to look at it from the economic perspective. Why all the software? To control access to gameplay (it's difficult to play games distributed from Steam without resorting to their software). When you are talking about free entry to markets, I see in this case a clear attempt to monopolise the market by Steam. And once it gets big enough it will do what all monopolists do: stop competitors from entering, save costs on 'unnecessary' expenses (that includers costumer service since costumers have nowhere to run) and distribute lackluster games (sounds like an EA clone, eh).
    Yes, I also share your aversion towards Steam, but I also see why some people like it. It seems to be interesting MP solution, but I am SP guy, so I don't know that.

    I was also very sceptical about DLC, but since localization became norm, I had no other choice and I found out how great it is.

    And finally, change indeed isn't always progress. The banking example is a good one. Although I would date it much much more back to the past when frictional reserves became norm or 50-60 years back when credit expansion started. Those last 30 years are just the logical outcome. But that is off-topin
    "'Religious faith. Belief in daemons, belief in spirits, belief in an afterlife and all the other trappings of a preternatural existence, simply existed to make us all more comfortable and content in the face of a measureless cosmos. They were sops, bolsters for the soul, crutches for the intellect, prayers and lucky charms to help us through the darkness. But we have witnessed the cosmos now, my friends. We have passed amongst it. We have learned and understood the fabric of reality. We have seen the stars from behind, and found they have no clockwork mechanisms, no golden chariots carrying them abroad. We have realized there is no need for god, or any gods, and by extension no use any longer for daemons or devils or spirits."


    - Primary Iterator Kyril Sindermann

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerkus View Post
    Sounds great. Any link to support your claim ? Infinite download possibility would definitely have me switching to digital-only softs.
    Quote Originally Posted by telesien View Post
    Personal experience not good enough?

    I'll back him up as well. Never had a problem downloading a game again if I needed to.
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  14. #34
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    Considering I would have to drive to an obscure part of Toronto to find it at a game shop (which is a 45 minute drive to get to Toronto, not the driving around to a store. That's a journey in its own right), or wait an additional month in which university kicks up again and my playtime goes from fair to nothing in seconds flat, just to find the game locally...

    I'll just check Gamer's Gate with that account or get it through steam... however I am quite partial to GG because I can get all the patches from Paradox without all the fuff'ing around that comes with Steam to get it all working... and I like the beta patches that never make it to Steam.

    (I do like Steam though, that is just one of the sore points I have with it when it comes to PI games on it. Thankfully you can turn off the 'Always keep updated', and theoretically Steam doesn't even have to be on to play PI games, which is rather blissful.)


    The only problem I have is the limited bandwidth the silly internet providers have us peons capped at... 60 gigs sounds great until you share that with other people.
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  15. #35
    Just look at the sucess the iPhone, Android, and Palm markets have brought to small developers. The moment somebody mixes a cross-platform language like XNA with an integrated mobile / desktop digital distribution service is the moment you'll see the end of brick and mortar game shops; and honestly, having been told by GameStop countless times that I have to preorder months in advance for a ten-cent plastic disc and slip of paper with installation instructions, I say good riddance!

  16. #36
    Absent Minded Orinsul's Avatar
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    ha complaining about 60 gigs, i get three.

    BUT MORE TO THE POINT
    the success of digital media doesn't mean the end of physical products

    People with more university degrees than sense have been mouthing off for centuries about how modern progress and statistics prove that materialism has come to an end and that within our life times it'll be done. And it wont.
    As long as HUMANS are involved in computer games, they'll come in a box.
    yes the rich might well be happy to not own anything but in theory, but they will never be the majority.
    There might come a time when you can no longer buy things physically and so people are forced though lack of other feasible or affordable options to buy Digital.
    but there will never come a time when the majority prefer it.
    You cant take any Pride in a digital purchase, you cant put the box up in a bookshelf or own the whole set
    and that's kind of the point. You can BUY it, but you cant OWN it. and while it is entirely semantics, in terms of how people feel about it, it makes ALL the difference.
    You're not going to save up two months to buy something, you will to own it.

    And if computer developers seeing a clever way to avoid publishing costs switch entirely to digital distribution, it wont be progress, but degeneration.
    And on that day, there will no longer be a reason NOT to illegally pirate it. The reason most people don't go to piracy is because they want to own a legitimate copy, one that actually means something.
    But if even the copy you have to pay for, doesn't actually exist.
    Then the motive for legitimacy is gone, and the industry signs its own death warrant.

    For the same reason as Communism ultimately fails, for the same reason the Manicheans ultimately failed. Material Possession is important.
    If a man's house is not his own, it is not his home. Property is at the foundations of a man's soul, and while attempts to destroy Property may be fashionable in the newspapers and paperback novels, For all they come to centre fads and fashions. They are NOT the Future.
    and they are NOT progress.
    For progress implies moving forwards
    unless of course you are talking about the progress of a man falling down a well.
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  17. #37
    Producer Paradox Dev Team Kallocain's Avatar

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    So.. digital distribution equals communism?
    I disagree SO MUCH that I have to close this thread now.


    It was getting seriously OT anyway.

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