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Thread: So can we outright annex a country in Viki2 or do we have to do it EU/Vicky style.

  1. #61
    the Infidel Tunch Khan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor1 View Post
    Hungary was not swallowed up all at once by the Ottomans, it was partly annexed by the Ottoman Empire and the rest went to the Habsburgs.
    Hungary disappeared from the surface of the world in one day. August 26, 1526.



    Poland was not swallowed up at once, it took 3 partitions, over 20 years and 3 countries to carve up Poland, and even then it was under heavy external influence for years. It was thoroughly occupied a few times (The Deluge, for one), but even then it was not completely annexed.
    Poland was swallowed in one week, only 3 years after Victoria time frame. I'm sure that's close enough.

    All those examples aren't really relevant to the Victoria timeline as well, the Victorian mentality was quite different from the one in the Medieval and even the Enlightenment-era.
    again.... Poland was swallowed in one week, only 3 years after Victoria time frame. I'm sure that's close enough.

    There are other countries like Spain, Naples, Holland, etc. annexed by Napoleon and released as vassals later on with Napoleon's own family and friends as their monarchs not too far from Victoria period. There's also other kind of annexations during the Victoria frame, like Texas and Austria but they were political.
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  2. #62
    Steiner Loyalist Raptor1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    Hungary disappeared from the surface of the world in one day. August 26, 1526.

    Hungary did not disappear from the surface of the world, it disappeared as an independent entity. The Kingdom of Hungary continued to exist and de-jure control large territories for centuries afterwards.

    Very different from overrunning a country and then claiming it's whole territory as your own, I would say.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    Poland was swallowed in one week, only 3 years after Victoria time frame. I'm sure that's close enough.

    again.... Poland was swallowed in one week, only 3 years after Victoria time frame. I'm sure that's close enough.
    What happens after Victoria's timespan is even more irrelevant than what happened before it. There's a reason Victoria ends in '36 and HoI starts then.

    Also, Poland was never annexed into Germany, it was occupied with parts of it annexed.

    And I'm sure you mean 1 month.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    There are other countries like Spain, Naples, Holland, etc. annexed by Napoleon and released as vassals later on with Napoleon's own family and friends as their monarchs not too far from Victoria period. There's also other kind of annexations during the Victoria frame, like Texas and Austria but they were political.
    None of these were ever annexed into France, all of them were puppets of the French Republic and later the Empire in some form.

    EDIT: Ah, wait, the Kingdom of Holland was annexed by France in 1810. But that doesn't really count.

  3. #63
    the Infidel Tunch Khan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raptor1 View Post
    Hungary did not disappear from the surface of the world, it disappeared as an independent entity. The Kingdom of Hungary continued to exist and de-jure control large territories for centuries afterwards.

    Very different from overrunning a country and then claiming it's whole territory as your own, I would say.
    So where exactly was this Kingdom of Hungary when the Turks were at the gates of Vienna?


    What happens after Victoria's timespan is even more irrelevant than what happened before it. There's a reason Victoria ends in '36 and HoI starts then.
    According to your personal tastes or Paradox mechanics? Because if it's the latter, they use the same system for EU II, EU III, HoI, etc. and I see no reason it should be any different for Victoria.

    Also, Poland was never annexed into Germany, it was occupied with parts of it annexed.
    The majority of the people of Poland between 1939 and 1945 would have really appreciated your semantics, had they lived to this day.

    And I'm sure you mean 1 month.
    No, I meant precisely what I wrote. The Polish government fled Warsaw in one week following the invasion and from then on, it was an obvious downward spiral until all the remaining units surrendered within a week or two.

    None of these were ever annexed into France, all of them were puppets of the French Republic and later the Empire in some form.

    EDIT: Ah, wait, the Kingdom of Holland was annexed by France in 1810. But that doesn't really count.
    They were quite annexed well. How else you install your regime, brother, names, calendar, colors, etc. if they remained independent? Absolute annexation. And Holland was almost one of the great powers of the time. I don't understand why they don't count? You don't like tulips?
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    The majority of the people of Poland between 1939 and 1945 would have really appreciated your semantics, had they lived to this day.
    The great majority of the people of Poland survived WW2, and appealing to the spirit crowd doesn't change the facts.

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  5. #65
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    I don't find the discussion of whether or not outright annexations of larger states happened in real history as interesting as the discussion of _why_ they didn't happen. And the reasons are quite obvious:

    1. It would rack up the "badboy" and have the whole world unite against you (like it happened with Napoleon)
    2. It would be a bloody, messy hell to administer (rebels, dissent, etc. would result in lower productivity and lots of other problems)
    3. It would probably collide with the liberal movement, and in Vicky terms this would mean you had to fight even against your own population about it.

    The conclusion would be that it wouldn't give you the results you wanted, and thusly it wouldn't be done. I think the same should apply to Vicky (and all other Paradox games) - you should be able to annex anything outright given you have the might to do it - but it should take you decades to establish your superiority in the area (get up production and get rebels down) and you would have to handle the international crisis as well (trade blockades, wars, etc.). Think of HoI (which let's you annex things outright). Here it works, because the timeframe is so small. If it were larger there would have to be more penalties, and it should be the obvious choice to set up puppet regimes (like the Soviets did in Eastern Germany, Poland, etc. after the war.) - although even this should net you some badboy.

    tl;dr: The arbitrary 3-province/1-state annex limit should be dropped for a much more unforgiving reaction internationally, domestically and in the occupied territories - leaving outright annexation for the madman.

  6. #66
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    I think that you should be able to annex satellites via a certain process. This seems to be a pretty historical way of annexation during this period: a state would make another state a satellite, and then a few years down the road they would annex it. That way, there would eb no hard-set size limit, but it would be very difficult to annex a satellite if its not really small compared to your country.

    And what's all this about having to annex a whole state, not specific provinces? That could create some major limitations to historical situations. An example given by someone above is that Prussia didn't annex all of Alsace-Lorraine, only half of it. Anotehr example I can think of is when Russia signed the Treaty of Aigun. They didn't annex all of Manchuria, only part of it. Oh and what about Hong Kong? How can the British take Hong Kong if they now have to annex that whole state its in?

    And I agree with whoever above said that we should be able to demand the capitol in a peace treaty. For example, if I'm the Netherlands and I want to get Flanders back, I basically have to do it in two wars minimum, and I have to ultimately annex the whole thing, not just the part I want.
    Last edited by rjf101; 02-07-2010 at 02:00.

  7. #67
    Star Swirl the Bearded Baneslave's Avatar
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    Allowing outright annexation, but making it badboy expensive hands out another problem: Is the annexation part what gathers negative attention, or is it the large conquests?

    In V1 outright annexing Uncivilized states increased your BB. If you only took 99% of their provinces, it did not. This led to some strange strategies, like "let's conquer all-but-one province of enemy now and come back five years later)

    So, I ask again, if we allow outright annexation no matter the size, is the annexation part what gathers negative attention, or is it the large conquests?

  8. #68
    Beautiful and Unique Snowflake Raczynski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    So where exactly was this Kingdom of Hungary when the Turks were at the gates of Vienna?
    From wikipedia:
    The Ottomans proceeded to invest and ransack the royal capital of Buda and occupied Syrmia, then withdrew from Hungary. The last three months of the year were marked by a vacuum of power; political authority was in a state of collapse, yet the victors chose not to impose their rule.
    On 10 November 1526, Szapolyai had himself proclaimed king by the diet at Székesfehérvár, and he was duly crowned the next day under the name King John I of Hungary.
    Hungary most definitely was NOT conquered by Ottomans in one war. It took more a decade of chaos and fighting until it finally was divided between Ottomans, Austria and the Ottoman vassal state of Transylvania.

    No, I meant precisely what I wrote. The Polish government fled Warsaw in one week following the invasion and from then on, it was an obvious downward spiral until all the remaining units surrendered within a week or two.
    So, government leaving the capital city because of military necessity = total conquest by enemy? You're being beyond ridiculous. Not only does it having nothing to do with Victoria, being clearly in the HoI timeframe, but it's also directly contradicted by the HoI3 mechanism of government-in-exile which tries to simulate situation like that.
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  9. #69
    Steiner Loyalist Raptor1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    According to your personal tastes or Paradox mechanics? Because if it's the latter, they use the same system for EU II, EU III, HoI, etc. and I see no reason it should be any different for Victoria.
    I seem to recall it being possible to annex nations of any size in HoI...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunch Khan View Post
    They were quite annexed well. How else you install your regime, brother, names, calendar, colors, etc. if they remained independent? Absolute annexation. And Holland was almost one of the great powers of the time. I don't understand why they don't count? You don't like tulips?
    You can do all that by setting up a client state, which they did...

    They don't count because the Kingdom of Holland was annexed without a war in 1810, after Napoleon told Louis to abdicate because his government wasn't satisfactory.

    The whole history of the French client states in the Netherlands proves my point. The Batavian Republic kept it's own military and government, and was dissolved because it was acting too independently for Napoleon's taste. The Kingdom of Holland still kept it's own government (It also officially had an army too but most of it was attached to the various French armies), under Louis Bonaparte, and was officially separate from France until 1810 when, again, the Kingdom of Holland's government was deemed by Napoleon to be unsatisfactory and it was annexed into the French Empire.
    Last edited by Raptor1; 02-07-2010 at 09:52.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Orinsul View Post
    you can annex states
    not three provinces

    as many provinces as you like as long as their all in the same state

    says so in the AAR
    and also some other places
    You give me hope = )

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prinz Wilhelm View Post
    Hanover by Prussia, Estonia and Latvia by the Soviet Union.

    Some I could think of. They all have more than four provinces in Victoria and Victoria 2.
    I'll one up that: Ming
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    I can imagine allowing total annexations by giving a boost for nationalist rebels relative to the size of the conquest and development of the nation. It could possibly spawn flavor events for neighbouring opponents to aid the rebel cause with money/supplies/volunteers, also relative to a vague excitement level caused by the conquest size.

    With the right numbers, just pulling the plug on a large civilized nation would be painful. But it wouldn't force you to wait.
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  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by krieger11b View Post
    Can you think of any countries that were 100% occupied and the conqueror took everything but their capital?
    the key word here is occupied, not annexed

    It would be silly as a war against spain get 100% warscore and then be able to instantly annex them.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanaric View Post
    the key word here is occupied, not annexed

    It would be silly as a war against spain get 100% warscore and then be able to instantly annex them.
    Would it? The Spanish people might not agree, and they'd rebel ferociously, but you could still claim it was yours.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Uhtred View Post
    The great majority of the people of Poland survived WW2, and appealing to the spirit crowd doesn't change the facts.
    I didn't know the crowd here didn't count the 3 million Polish Jews as Polish citizens whom only 3% survived. You must be right in your statement since half of Polish population from 1939 were still alive in 1945.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raczynski View Post
    Hungary most definitely was NOT conquered by Ottomans in one war.
    What was the second war Hungarians fought the Ottomans after Mohac then?

    So, government leaving the capital city because of military necessity = total conquest by enemy? You're being beyond ridiculous. Not only does it having nothing to do with Victoria, being clearly in the HoI timeframe, but it's also directly contradicted by the HoI3 mechanism of government-in-exile which tries to simulate situation like that.
    You can call it ridiculous as much as you fancy but the fact that Poland kept a government in exile does not change the history. Poland fell like a house of cards the moment there was no government in the capital. It's not like they moved deeper in the hinterland to regroup and push back the invaders like the Russians did. Again, people are stuck with semantics and not the fact that Poland ceased to exist as an independent nation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGiavani View Post
    Would it? The Spanish people might not agree, and they'd rebel ferociously, but you could still claim it was yours.
    Very true. It's all about the military power the invading nation has in order to garrison the occupied lands.
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  16. #76
    they can always rebel and form a new country with some intel help perhaps

  17. #77
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    You can annex whole countries with one of the latest EUIII/HTTT beta patches (It just costs an absurd amount of reputation as it should )

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    Quote Originally Posted by DSwann View Post
    You can annex whole countries with one of the latest EUIII/HTTT beta patches (It just costs an absurd amount of reputation as it should )
    Nah, it only costs the Annexation BB + BB for each province annexed, and with the HTTT CB system it's possible to reduce both drastically, even to zero. Thus, since they have the right CBs, the Ottoman Empire can annex Byzantium in a single war (or vice versa!) with for very low or zero BB cost.

    If they have decided to follow the HTTT model, the game will probably only allow annexation if the given nation is a single state or is puppetable. That's still a far cry from the 1 or 3 province annexation rules that we've seen in earlier Paradox games.

    Ideally, you would just state "Annexation" as your war goal to be able to annex them in the war. Even more ideally, this annexation war goal might provoke Great Powers or rivals into getting involved.
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  19. #79
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    Holland was annexed into France in 1810 through the peaceful annexation of a vassal. Spain and Naples were vassalized and were never annexed.
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  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilcoxchar View Post
    Holland was annexed into France in 1810 through the peaceful annexation of a vassal. Spain and Naples were vassalized and were never annexed.
    True, but I see this as a special condition.. I mean his little brother became the King of Spain and his buddy became the King of Naples, no? How cool is that...
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